Keep oil or convert to gas for a new steam boiler?

Ollie_Hopnoodle

ChrisJ said:

You know what really bastes my puddings?

Those who don't know how to install steam boilers, but then do anyway and charge people for it and then argue that it's broke because "It's steam, that's just how it is".


So regardless of the fuel you choose @Ollie_Hopnoodle Make sure the new boiler(s) is / are sized properly and piped properly. It seems like 9 times out of 10 they are not and by the time the job is done it's too late to fix it and you get to just live with it (because that's just how steam is).

If you have any questions about sizing the boilers, or how they should be piped please ask. We'll all be glad to help and explain it ahead of time.

thanks @ChrisJ I don have some questions on sizing a new boiler. I think I plan on staying with oil and getting the Megasteam. I was having trouble finding my radiators online to properly gauge the square foot EDR of each section. I was bale to find something simliar and determine that they are window radiators by Aero ( United Radiator company). The are 19.5 inches high by 8 inches wide. The house was built in 1922. While watching Dan's Dead Man's steam school seminar it seems as if they might be thin tube radiators? Here is a picture of my radiators.
And heres a screen shot of Dan's seminar. They seem to look alike but the have no cross bars. The closest I found to these type of radiators was in this picture from this ad from 1926. They seem to be identical, just alot more columns . So the closest sizing I could find was from this brochure.

They arent identical and are seven column, but there is a sizing chart. Do you think i should refer to that sizing chart to determine my EDR? Thanks

Jamie Hall

Close enough. Adjust for the overall width -- front to back -- to compensate for the difference and don't worry too much about the number of tubes. EDR ratings aren't intended to be exact.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

@Jamie Hall Thanks for tip. In the chart it states that the legs are not included in the height, so i calculated that my radiators are actually 16.5 inches high. One of my radiators is 15 sections which is 56.25 square feet heating surface on the chart. Since the size of the radiator in the chart is 12 inches wide and my radiators are eight inches wide (2/3 the size), I multiplied 56.25 X .667 and got a square feet heating surface of 37.5 for my 15 column radiator. Sound right?

vhauk

ethicalpaul said:

You're not wrong, but I'm not either. I didn't know his tank was new and in the basement when I wrote that...I've nearly bought a house that had a leaking in-ground tank and if you don't think that's hazardous waste then you've never paid for remediation. And new tanks do become old tanks, yes it takes time but time happens. I stand by my highly opinionated view that if someone has NG already running in their house, it's damn foolish to install a new oil boiler.

There’s hazardous waste and then there’s hazardous. As in, “ a disaster waiting to happen at any moment. Like gasoline in a vented tank in your basement, the vent not on the outside. 

ChrisJ

vhauk said:

ethicalpaul said:

You're not wrong, but I'm not either. I didn't know his tank was new and in the basement when I wrote that...I've nearly bought a house that had a leaking in-ground tank and if you don't think that's hazardous waste then you've never paid for remediation.

And new tanks do become old tanks, yes it takes time but time happens. I stand by my highly opinionated view that if someone has NG already running in their house, it's damn foolish to install a new oil boiler.

There’s hazardous waste and then there’s hazardous. As in, “ a disaster waiting to happen at any moment. Like gasoline in a vented tank in your basement, the vent not on the outside. 

Depends.
Plenty of people used to park cars and lawn mowers etc in their garages with vented tanks.

Bad example, I think.

EdTheHeaterMan

Hay @Ollie_Hopnoodle, You might want to check page 44 and 45 of this book https://heatinghelp.com/assets/documents/NationalRadiatorCo-Aero-Novus-No35-19261.pdf
You may have radiator that is rated at 3 EDR per section.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

@EdTheHeaterMan You're the man, Ed! I did find on page 48 that these are indeed the ones I have. You're right, they are rated at 3EDR. I have 5 X 12 section 5 tube radiators (180) 1 X 15 section 5 tube radiator (45) and 1 X 8 section 3 tube radiator (14) bringing my total radiator EDR to 239. That's 26 more EDR than I originally calculated. Thank You!

EdTheHeaterMan

ethicalpaul said:

@Ollie_Hopnoodle said: Here's a drawing I did of my radiator steam system

That drawing is fantastic by the way. Are you an illustrator from the 1940s??

I did like your drawing of the steam system. Anyone could plainly see there is a problem with your boiler by the look on its face!

random12345

@Ollie_Hopnoodle That was a good catch by @EdTheHeaterMan. Be careful because the EDR rating for the National Aero 5 tube radiator appears to have changed from 3 to 2 2/3 sq. ft./section sometime between 1926 and 1930. I also found a 1938 catalog.

1938:
https://archive.org/details/Sweets1938Sec2630NationalRadiatorCo/page/n13/mode/2up

1930:
https://heatinghelp.com/heating-museum/national-heating-guide-bluebook-of-the-industry-1930/
https://heatinghelp.com/assets/documents/National-Heating-Guide-Bluebook-of-the-Industry-1930.pdf

1926:
https://archive.org/details/NationalBoilersAndRadiatorsCatalogNo.35_517/page/n45/mode/2up

If you're sure the house was built in 1922, then that 239 EDR looks right. I would also make sure the height is really 20" for all your radiators, and that the center-to-center distance between any two sections is 2.5". This is the "length" column in those charts I linked to above.

I have a Megasteam 288, and for us, it was a mistake to stick with oil. The Megasteam is 87% efficient. This means the flue gases will be at a lower temperature than that aging Burnham V8 you have, and that may cause condensation in your chimney. It did in ours, which is external, but since yours is internal, and both boilers and that water heater vent into the same chimney, it may not be a problem. We had to reline our chimney, which was an unanticipated additional expense of going with the Megasteam. If your chimney has a stainless steel liner, and it's in good condition, then none of what I just said is likely to be an issue, but I'm guessing that chimney only has terra cotta tiles, and probably hasn't been inspected. With all the water vapor you mentioned seeing coming out, I'd get a licensed chimney sweep to do an inspection. Also, the gas water heater vent pipe should terminate above your gas boiler vent pipe on the chimney according to code in NFPA 54. Right now, it's under it.

Switching to gas gets my vote, as does either 1) gas tank water heater or 2) heat pump tank water heater. Oil water heater may be a little more efficient than tankless coil, but you will need to pay for maintenance on its burner as well and run an additional oil line from the tank. Since you already have gas available, this seems like an easy choice. We have a tankless coil on our Megasteam, and it's inefficient and expensive. Don't do it. It should be easy to calculate your gas vs oil rates. What state are you located in?

Mad Dog_2

Stick with Oil and go with a Burnham Megasteam with A Riello burner.  You could 
Always go to gas with  Riello or Carlin Gas gun...Mad 🐕 Dog 

Mad Dog_2

As A Licensed Master plumber since 1998, customers were always surprised when I would give them a stay with oil option (less expensive) 
AND oil to gas conversion ( usually double).
Plumbers font usually do oil at all but push the gas and poo 💩 poo oil.  Conversely, The oil companies bashed gas and tried to scare the people away from gas.  Yes, I talked quite a few folks out of an oil to gas conversion.    Top notch oil equipment and boilers -IF PROPERLY MAINTAINED- are very efficient and effective.  I also think it takes quite a bit more skill to work on oil burner piping, wiring and controls (you have to know them all) VERSUS screwing together black pipe and calling an electrician to wire it up.  I love both.  Mad 🐕 Dog

hot_rod

If it matters to your calculation. We still import a % of our oil. Some from people and countries that hate the US of A.

The US is now the largest producer of NG and we export more and more. Seems like we should use NG for heating and also some electrical generation? Before we sell it to the world?
Diesel is still being used to generate electricity in some New England areas.

Mad Dog_2

I feel for my brethren in the oil heat and boiler business.. all the Mom and Pops that have been bought out by the  huge conglomerates that are doing oil AND gas.  I know one too many third generation oil family's that are out of business. I hate to see that.  Mad Dog 🐕 

ChrisJ

Mad Dog_2 said:

I feel for my brethren in the oil heat and boiler business.. all the Mom and Pops that have been bought out by the  huge conglomerates that are doing oil AND gas.  I know one too many third generation oil family's that are out of business. I hate to see that.  Mad Dog 🐕 

That's how capitalism works my friend.
It's the entire idea of it.

Either you can keep up and compete, or you can't.

nde

Convert for sure. Better value, better house resale price, cleaner burning. Watch some youtube "tankmasters" videos to see why you want to avoid oil unless no other option.