Keep oil or convert to gas for a new steam boiler?

Ollie_Hopnoodle

We own a two family house that was built in 1922. The floor plans have identical layouts on the first floor and the second floor --Two bedrooms, one kitchen, one bathroom and one double living room. We have two steam boilers, one for the first floor tenant, and one for the second floor tenant (which we occupy). I recently replaced the boiler on the first floor. It was a snowman boiler, probably original to the house. We converted to gas because National Grid and Rise Engineering offered a 7 year loan at 0% interest to convert from oil to gas. The rating for the boiler only had to be above 81% efficiency to qualify for the loan. So we got the gas line ran to the house and the boiler installed for the first floor, along with a water heater for the unit. National grid ran two pipes to the house because we told them that we would also switch over to gas since we have an aging boiler...

The following year we applied for the loan to get the second floor unit’s boiler replaced, but National grid raised the efficiency rating which made it impossible to find a gas powered steam boiler at 95% efficiency. So we couldn’t afford to get the gas unit without the loan. We decided to hold off on getting a new boiler. Also Last winter our oil tank started to leak so we had to get new one , a Roth 165 tank ( the big tank couldn’t fit in the house) with a tiger loop.

Now we have invested thousands into the new oil tank, and we no longer qualify for a no interest 7 year loan to convert to gas.

Starting late this Fall, our boiler’s water started getting low everyday which causes the low water shutoff valve to engage. So every night I have to fill it up so the heat will turn on in the morning.

I currently have a Burnham V8 Series (PV84ST) installed in 2004

After doing some research on this site and talking to a few plumbers on the phone, we’ve determined that the boiler is on its way out the door. There aren’t any visible leaks at the boiler, radiators or steam lines. But recently, when the boiler was heating up I went outside and looked at the chimney and saw white clouds coming out of the top. I talked with two plumbers who told me (by phone) that most likely I will need a new boiler.

With my parallel flow one pipe steam system is it best to stick with oil, especially since I have a brand new oil tank? Or should I convert to gas, now that it is piped to the house? Which is more efficient for these steam systems?

ethicalpaul

No delivery hassles, less wild price fluctuations (usually cheaper), no storage of hazardous material with risk of leaking tank, no noisy blower, much easier (and cheaper) maintenance. Gas is a no-brainer.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Gas is probably the way to go

pecmsg

My NG rates have gone up a lot in the last 2 years.

As oil goes so does gas!

Keep the oil (you already have a new Roth tank) and invest in keeping the heat in. Insulation and weatherproofing leads to smaller equipment and lower fuel bills.

ethicalpaul

> As oil goes so does gas!

Not directly, and not to the same amount. How much did your NG go up? My mom's oil went to $5 per gallon last winter.

pecmsg

I believe 30% i have to check.
Oil went up but has since come back down.

Hot_water_fan

You can’t worry about the tank cost, that’s in the past. 

Long Beach Ed

Haul the Roth out of the basement and sell it. Don't let financing make your engineering decisions.

ethicalpaul

Hot_water_fan said:

You can’t worry about the tank cost, that’s in the past. 

It leaking and remediation is in the future

ethicalpaul

pecmsg said:

I believe 30% i have to check.
Oil went up but has since come back down.

For now

Hot_water_fan

Also Last winter our oil tank started to leak so we had to get new one , a Roth 165 tank ( the big tank couldn’t fit in the house) with a tiger loop. 

@ethicalpaul the tank is new

MaxMercy

ethicalpaul said:

pecmsg said:

I believe 30% i have to check.
Oil went up but has since come back down.

For now

I have oil at home and gas in my commercial building. Gas takes less maintenance but oil averaged out is cheaper. Oil can and does shoot up much higher than gas, but the next month it could be half the price.

ChrisJ

Ollie Hopnoodle........

That's the first place I saw a Monitor Top......


Anyway,
Oil stinks, natural gas is the way to go.

Jon_blaney

Have you contacted RISE directly. These things change like the direction of the wind. New year, new programs.

Jamie Hall

I'd keep the oil. You could, however, make sure that the new boiler can be converted to gas at a later date. Some can, some can't.

And, as has been said, try and base your decision on sound engineering, not on political whims such as loans or arbitrary cutoffs. They change with the wind -- and some change even after you think you have them locked in.

ChrisJ

Keep in mind,

Often those on here who recommend keeping oil either sell it, or have never had natural gas.

ethicalpaul

Hot_water_fan said:

Also Last winter our oil tank started to leak so we had to get new one , a Roth 165 tank ( the big tank couldn’t fit in the house) with a tiger loop. 

@ethicalpaul the tank is new

And it will leak in the future!

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

Keep in mind,

Often those on here who recommend keeping oil either sell it, or have never had natural gas.

This is true. However, I try very hard to study a particular situation and, if natural gas (or in some places in the upper midwest, LP) is less expensive, overall, than oil, that's what I would pick (if, with natural gas, I could get it -- which I can't). However, if one has an existing setup which runs, it will rarely pay to switch just for the sake of switching -- which is why, in the above case, I suggested finding a boiler which could be switched.

And for the sake of something, may I humbly point out that there is no one best energy sources for all situations? In some cases, it will be one thing, in others, others.

WMno57

ethicalpaul said:

And it will leak in the future!

I voted for NG, but @ethicalpaul, lets try to help the OP make a good decision instead of spreading petroleum bias and hatred.
All tanks do not eventually leak. Tanks in humid basements or outside that are kept 1/4 full, rust out and leak. Not Oil's fault. Homeowner's fault. A new quality tank inside conditioned space that is kept full in the off season will last a loooooooooooooooooooooong time.
Diesel Fuel and Heating Oil (same thing) are not Hazardous. Oil is no more hazardous than Lithium batteries. Both Oil and Lithium batteries require the owner and operator to have some common sense.
I live in the Midwest. Almost no one in the Midwest heats with oil. It's not that we don't have oil. I live in farm country. Many of my farmer neighbors have oil tanks on their property for equipment. They all heat with LP or NG. For almost everyone in the Upper Midwest who has a choice, the energy preference for heat is ranked as follows:

1. NG
   
2. LP
   
3. Wood
   
4. Electric
   
5. OIL
   

I do see a niche where oil might make sense for the OP. If the OP did not have any use for gas besides space heating, then oil might make sense because there is no monthly charge like there is with gas service.
For example: A home with a heat pump water heater, electric stove and clothes dryer, heat pump for shoulder season heating, and steam only for backup heating and one month of deep winter might be better off with oil instead of NG service. Kind of a coin toss. Could do either.

ethicalpaul

You're not wrong, but I'm not either. I didn't know his tank was new and in the basement when I wrote that...I've nearly bought a house that had a leaking in-ground tank and if you don't think that's hazardous waste then you've never paid for remediation.

And new tanks do become old tanks, yes it takes time but time happens. I stand by my highly opinionated view that if someone has NG already running in their house, it's damn foolish to install a new oil boiler.

Hot_water_fan

I stand by my highly opinionated view that if someone has NG already running in their house, it's damn foolish to install a new oil boiler.

I think Americans strongly agree with you, oil is quite unpopular (boilers too, but that's a separate discussion).

MaxMercy

WMno57 said:

If the OP did not have any use for gas besides space heating, then oil might make sense because there is no monthly charge like there is with gas service.

That's one thing that frosts my cookies. I have oil at home and shut the boiler down from March to November. Costs zip during the summer.

I pay about $850 a year "delivery" charge for gas at my commercial building even when I shut that boiler down during the same months, almost $500 of that when my gas is shut off.

When my home boiler reached the 30 year mark, I replaced it with another oil boiler. Easy call from where I sit.

ChrisJ

Frosts your cookies...........

ChrisJ

You know what really bastes my puddings?

Those who don't know how to install steam boilers, but then do anyway and charge people for it and then argue that it's broke because "It's steam, that's just how it is".


So regardless of the fuel you choose @Ollie_Hopnoodle Make sure the new boiler(s) is / are sized properly and piped properly. It seems like 9 times out of 10 they are not and by the time the job is done it's too late to fix it and you get to just live with it (because that's just how steam is).

If you have any questions about sizing the boilers, or how they should be piped please ask. We'll all be glad to help and explain it ahead of time.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Thank you all for responding! @pecmsg I will have to do a bit more insulation to save further. I noticed that my near boiler piping was never insulated and its made



out of copper. @ethicalpaul @EBEBRATT-Ed I will hold out on getting gas at the moment and wait to see if there are any other incentives for loans before I jump to gas. My boiler seems like it will hold out for now. @Hot_water_fan I hear you but this Roth tank is less than a year old and it was close to 3500 to get installed. @Jon_blaney Thanks I did reach out to RISE today. I left them a message. Maybe they will have a new program at the beginning of 2023. @jamie Hall, good idea to see if I can convert the oil to gas later. But it seems that the boiler recommended to me is a Megasteam 288, I don't think that can convert over. @ChrisJ My last tenant made a note me me how much more money they were paying when I converted the boiler from oil to gas. I'm a little afraid that our costs would get higher. @Jamie Hall I've found it hard to easily calculate the cost difference between oil and Natural gas online, especially since they are measured differently. I don't use that much oil. I filled our 165 tank up in the middle of September and now we have a little more than 3/8 of a tank left today. @WMno57 I use the heating oil primarily for heating 7 radiators in my less than 1000 square foot space. We also use the boiler for direct water heating (the boiler heats the water in the water lines). We dont use that much hot water but it has taken a toll on the boiler throughout the years. @MaxMercy My fear is exactly that the distribution charge will be outrageous and more than what it costs me to store oil on my property. I don't have a gas fireplace or a gas stove so maybe it's better to remain with oil? @ChrisJ I fel my boiler was not installed properly to begin with, probably why it hasn't lasted as long as my first floor 100 year old snowman boiler that still worked when we took it out and replaced it with gas. I included a picture below of my current boiler. I can now tell that it wasnt piped correctly since I have been doing research on this site. I see that my "header" is piped with copper and it isnt piped with both risers ports. Why did they only use one riser? Again thanks all for the replies. I still have a lot of work to do to figure what I'm going to do.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Here's a drawing I did of my radiator steam system that goes up from my basement to the second floor where we live. Our tenant on the first floor has an identical layout and a separate new gas boiler.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Ollie_Hopnoodle

For the amount of oil you use it's not worth switching to gas. Your boiler is not piped horrible it may only require 1 riser. It shouldn't have been copper as long as it works leave it.

Looks like you may have some leaks around the tankless coil. You should have those addressed before they get worse

ChrisJ

Wait

The claims are that the natural gas boiler costs more to run than a snowman using oil?  Can we see how that new boiler is pipe?  Something sounds horribly wrong 

@EBEBRATT-Ed. The boiler is rotted they need a new one regardless.

pedmec

Heating oil is not hazardous materials??? Maybe i should go talk to the three guys (EPA, fire department chief , oil company owner, plus some oil sampling company) my cousins talking to about who's paying for the clean up and tell them it was a mistake. nothing to see here. That 50 gallon plus spill will just soak into the ground with not worries. Oil company will be relieved.

WMno57

@pedmec The spill on your cousin's property will be financially hazardous to someone. Today the wholesale spot market price of Heating Oil is $3.06. We all know retail is much higher. The oil man doesn't eat the cost of liability insurance. He passes it on to his customers.
50 gallons of spilled B20 is not hazardous from a public health perspective. Did some Bureaucrats designate Fuel Oil as Hazardous Material? Are these the same Bureaucrats that foisted Agent Orange (Dioxins), CFLs (Mercury), Airbags (Takata shrapnel), Oxygenated Gasoline (MTBE), and Fire Fighting Foam (PFOS) on the public? Good chance that Fire Dept Chief has much higher levels of PFOS in his blood than the general population.
Some say we need more government to protect us from ourselves. But who will protect us from Government Bureaucracy run amok?

Ollie_Hopnoodle

@ChrisJ Here’s a picture of the near boiler piping of the new gas boiler that replaced the snowman. I can’t find any main vents on the steam return or main. 

Jamie Hall

Now you're talking a racket I was in for some years. Yes, an oil spill is regarded as a hazmat incident, and must be remediated. As hazmat stuff goes, however, it is much easier to clean up than almost any other liquid hazmat spill, since fuel oil does not migrate as rapidly in the ground as most other materials do -- gasoline being far more hazardous. Further, in general it does not contain soluble constituents which make ground water undrinkable, unlike gasoline. It's a lot cheaper to clean up than a gasoline spill, too.

And both of them are child's play in comparison to some common hydrocarbon based solvents.

As to the hazards posed by the three common heating fuels -- diesel/no.2 , LP gas, and natural gas, they really are quite different. Diesel/no. 2 will contaminate the ground and groundwater, but can be remediated -- even in fairly large spills. Neither LP nor natural gas will do that, of course. On the other hand, diesel/no. 2 has a very low vapour pressure, and so is very unlikely to form a combustible or explosive mixture with air -- which both LP and natural gas will. I'm not really sure which of the latter two I'd rather be blown up by, although on the whole LP is, in my view, somewhat more or a hazard since the vapour is heavier than air and will pool in low spots, and it is stored as a liquid -- and an LP gas tank exposed to fire is really a problem (look up the term "bleve" for some more on that).

All three can cause financially significant damage. Take your pick...

ethicalpaul

Here's a drawing I did of my radiator steam system

That drawing is fantastic by the way. Are you an illustrator from the 1940s??

EBEBRATT-Ed

@ChrisJ

Your right. i missed that the boiler was shot

ChrisJ

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@ChrisJ

Your right. i missed that the boiler was shot

I did too. It's hard to see every detail when reading posts.

Kickstand55

One of the things that may have contributed to the boiler failure is minerals in the water as seen on the tankless coil fittings. Also, no copper piping, at all.
Best to have your water analyzed for pH and mineral content. If needed, add a scale inhibitor cartridge and boiler chemicals.
An oil fired boiler is a good choice, which can be converted to a gas gun burner in the future and the firing rate adjusted to your needs.
Do your homework on boilers though, they're not created equal. Some don't do well as steamers. I like the heavy cast iron ones with real push nipples.
Be sure it's sized based on the radiation, (EDR), and insulate all the piping, always. Follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter.
There are good books on steam available written by the beloved Dan that can help your decision making. They're a good read too!
Let us know how it works out for you.

ChrisJ

Kickstand55 said:

One of the things that may have contributed to the boiler failure is minerals in the water as seen on the tankless coil fittings. Also, no copper piping, at all. Best to have your water analyzed for pH and mineral content. If needed, add a scale inhibitor cartridge and boiler chemicals. An oil fired boiler is a good choice, which can be converted to a gas gun burner in the future and the firing rate adjusted to your needs. Do your homework on boilers though, they're not created equal. Some don't do well as steamers. I like the heavy cast iron ones with real push nipples. Be sure it's sized based on the radiation, (EDR), and insulate all the piping, always. Follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter. There are good books on steam available written by the beloved Dan that can help your decision making. They're a good read too! Let us know how it works out for you.

Copper pipe doesn't rott a boiler like this.

EdTheHeaterMan

I have on opinion on oil or gas... Real Estate professionals will recommend NG because those houses are easier to sell. When you move out and have 2 tenants, can you depend on the "non-owner tenant" to never run out of oil? The gas company can't turn off the gas in the middle of winter for non payment of the gas bill in many areas. So a deadbeat tenant who forgets to pay the gas bill won't cause your house to freeze up. On the other hand, the oil company may not deliver fuel to a customer who owes money. No heat, frozen pipes, insurance claim. Hassle on top of hassle.

Ollie_Hopnoodle

Kickstand55 said:

One of the things that may have contributed to the boiler failure is minerals in the water as seen on the tankless coil fittings. Also, no copper piping, at all. Best to have your water analyzed for pH and mineral content. If needed, add a scale inhibitor cartridge and boiler chemicals. An oil fired boiler is a good choice, which can be converted to a gas gun burner in the future and the firing rate adjusted to your needs. Do your homework on boilers though, they're not created equal. Some don't do well as steamers. I like the heavy cast iron ones with real push nipples. Be sure it's sized based on the radiation, (EDR), and insulate all the piping, always. Follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter. There are good books on steam available written by the beloved Dan that can help your decision making. They're a good read too! Let us know how it works out for you.

Thanks @Kickstand55 I’ll have to get the water analyzed. Some of my water pipes have this mineral buildup as well. I plan on insulating the near boiling piping. I’m still a bit confused how to calculate the EDR to get the right btu’s for a new boiler, but I have been looking at some useful info on the forums about it.  Multiple people have recommended the Burnham MegaSteam boiler with tankless coil for my new setup. I still have to look if it can be converted later for gas.I hope to get Dan’s book,  I have been watching a bunch of Dan’s lectures on YouTube and have been learning so much about steam systems. I was telling my dad about what I learned and he was blown away especially since I grew up in a house with steam radiators that banged and hissed a lot. He wished there was a forum like this back in the early 90’s. 

Ollie_Hopnoodle

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I have on opinion on oil or gas... Real Estate professionals will recommend NG because those houses are easier to sell. When you move out and have 2 tenants, can you depend on the "non-owner tenant" to never run out of oil? The gas company can't turn off the gas in the middle of winter for non payment of the gas bill in many areas. So a deadbeat tenant who forgets to pay the gas bill won't cause your house to freeze up. On the other hand, the oil company may not deliver fuel to a customer who owes money. No heat, frozen pipes, insurance claim. Hassle on top of hassle.

Thanks @EdTheHeaterMan one of my prior tenants on the first floor use to run out of oil all the time, and I had to bleed the line every time to get it going again on the old snowman. It was a motivator for us to get gas into the house, actually. We plan on staying for a while on the second floor and we don’t go through that much oil. Electric dryer, electric stove tankless coil. It’s just the occasional hot water call to the showers and kitchen. It’s a tough decision to switch over, especially when gas companies throw in fee after fee like it’s a Verizon wireless bill, and the bills are hard to read and impossible to negotiate. Paying crazy distro charges for little gas use seems backwards.  With oil it’s paid on the spot, delivered and off the grid. But I probably would go gas if RISE approved a 7 year no interest loan again for me. They don’t give loans for oil burners.  Not easy! 

Ollie_Hopnoodle

EdTheHeaterMan said:

I have on opinion on oil or gas... Real Estate professionals will recommend NG because those houses are easier to sell. When you move out and have 2 tenants, can you depend on the "non-owner tenant" to never run out of oil? The gas company can't turn off the gas in the middle of winter for non payment of the gas bill in many areas. So a deadbeat tenant who forgets to pay the gas bill won't cause your house to freeze up. On the other hand, the oil company may not deliver fuel to a customer who owes money. No heat, frozen pipes, insurance claim. Hassle on top of hassle.

Thanks @EdTheHeaterMan one of my prior tenants on the first floor use to run out of oil all the time, and I had to bleed the line every time to get it going again on the old snowman. It was a motivator for us to get gas into the house, actually. We plan on staying for a while on the second floor and we don’t go through that much oil. Electric dryer, electric stove tankless coil. It’s just the occasional hot water call to the showers and kitchen. It’s a tough decision to switch over, especially when gas companies throw in fee after fee like it’s a Verizon wireless bill, and the bills are hard to read and impossible to negotiate. Paying crazy distro charges for little gas use seems backwards.  With oil it’s paid on the spot, delivered and off the grid. But I probably would go gas if RISE approved a 7 year no interest loan again for me. They don’t give loans for oil burners.  Not easy!