Dual Thermostats - 1 system Pump/Zone

ChrisJ

I mean.
We're about to roll over to page 3. So there's that.

EdTheHeaterMan

OOPS.. I forgot, we need to have the mechanical engineer add 50 more pages to cover what CO detector should be included. We will all need to anti up a little more $$$ for this guy. Can some start a GoFundMe for this project?

pedmec

LMAO

EdTheHeaterMan

@TerrS you can use a simple non digital thermostat,

or you can talk about a smart thermostat that needs a C wire... that will take this conversation in a whole different direction. (especially if you say the word NEST)

pecmsg

ChrisJ said:

ChrisJ said:

TerrS said:

Lastly and I have heard the gambit of vent-free fireplaces, but mine has been in use for 20 years. It's cleaned and tested and 2 CO2 monitors. So none of my energy is wasted up the chimney except 25% of the boiler. Since my boiler is only 75%- 1990 technology efficient.

Big box store CO detectors are virtually worthless. 70 PPM has to be exceeded for up to 3 hours before it will alarm. That’s why I preach against them. 

The Defender Low Level will alert at 30 PPM much lower level and earlier warning of potential danger!

I'm fairly certain the design characteristics of CO detectors have absolutely nothing to do with them being sold by a "big box store" in fact they typically come in small boxes. And I would disagree and say they are far from worthless.

UL Rated alarms ARE rated to exceed 70 PPM for up to 3 hours before they alarm. Virtually  Worthless!

That’s the minimum for the UL listing. 

My personal CO monitor alerts at 15 PPM. 

OSHA only allows 50 PPM over an 8 hour period. 

Your personal alarm is expected to be used under certain conditions by a trained operator. UL listed alarms are to be used by the general public and is intended to save lives under extremely dangerous conditions. nuisance alarms need to be avoided and the product needs to be affordable and reliable long term under a huge variety of conditions. There's a big difference between them and I honestly feel telling people they're worthless is dangerous on our part. Typically, if people keep having headaches etc they will investigate why. They can't do this if they're dead, that's where the code required UL listed alarms come in. Those are my thoughts anyway.

For the record I said
 Virtually  Worthless!

EdTheHeaterMan

We all live in a vIrtual world now, between computers and cell phones that you need a Millennial to figure out, @pecmsg is a virtual PIA in this forum.

Click Spoiler below @pecmsg

PIA = Practical Information Analyst.
What did you think I ment?

Jamie Hall

Actually, I sort of tried to answer -- and hooking two thermostats up in parallel as @EdTheHeaterMan 's drawing shows -- will NOT average the two, but will simply result in one or the other calling for heat. It won't average the two. It won't solve the balance problem.

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

ChrisJ said:

ChrisJ said:

TerrS said:

Lastly and I have heard the gambit of vent-free fireplaces, but mine has been in use for 20 years. It's cleaned and tested and 2 CO2 monitors. So none of my energy is wasted up the chimney except 25% of the boiler. Since my boiler is only 75%- 1990 technology efficient.

Big box store CO detectors are virtually worthless. 70 PPM has to be exceeded for up to 3 hours before it will alarm. That’s why I preach against them. 

The Defender Low Level will alert at 30 PPM much lower level and earlier warning of potential danger!

I'm fairly certain the design characteristics of CO detectors have absolutely nothing to do with them being sold by a "big box store" in fact they typically come in small boxes. And I would disagree and say they are far from worthless.

UL Rated alarms ARE rated to exceed 70 PPM for up to 3 hours before they alarm. Virtually  Worthless!

That’s the minimum for the UL listing. 

My personal CO monitor alerts at 15 PPM. 

OSHA only allows 50 PPM over an 8 hour period. 

Your personal alarm is expected to be used under certain conditions by a trained operator. UL listed alarms are to be used by the general public and is intended to save lives under extremely dangerous conditions. nuisance alarms need to be avoided and the product needs to be affordable and reliable long term under a huge variety of conditions. There's a big difference between them and I honestly feel telling people they're worthless is dangerous on our part. Typically, if people keep having headaches etc they will investigate why. They can't do this if they're dead, that's where the code required UL listed alarms come in. Those are my thoughts anyway.

For the record I said
 Virtually  Worthless!

KC_Jones

Jamie Hall said:

Actually, I sort of tried to answer -- and hooking two thermostats up in parallel as @EdTheHeaterMan 's drawing shows -- will NOT average the two, but will simply result in one or the other calling for heat. It won't average the two. It won't solve the balance problem.

Even getting two that average won’t help the balance problem. I can’t fathom why this is so difficult for some people (not you Jamie) to understand.

TerrS

You guys are great but I agree with @edtheheaterman. You can add all 110 disclaimers which is fine. I understand without zones the whole system will heat. I understand ventfree fireplace baddddd. And etc. Etc etc.

I am looking for the band-aid. To a point or spending money that can be reused when I downsize the boiler, put in zone valves, downsize the pump for 10gpm, etc

As I said I am looking at the ecobee with a sensor upstairs. Yes the whole house will heat even when just upstairs needs it. But I can help some of that by cutting flow to first floor zone, IF I find it's heating too much.

All I wanted to know was can I have 2 t-stats into the same set of th/tr control and the answer is YES. With unpredictable heating results may occur.

hot_rod

Jamie Hall said:

If your differential was or is only 5 degrees or so, you are way overpumped -- in addition to all your other woes, which you seem to be resisting doing anything positive about.

Could the differential could in fact be 5 degrees depending on when it is measured, like minutes before setpoint is reached, regardless of a 20 design delta

Could it also be much wider than a 20 on cold start up?

It is important to now conditions in the space when the measurements are taken.

Ive heard delta can go to 0 when the load is covered??

hot_rod

Smart designers/ installers/ troubleshooters know how to fix a problematic system like this.

Wise ones know how to avoid designing/ installing such systems😉

TerrS

So $$$$ later and 35 bags of cellulose dense packed into all ceiling joist 2nd floor, ie, attic floor 25x35ft. Plus all knee walls with 10" of insulation. All foundation walls spray foamed to seal the cracks.

Step 1 complete.

Step 2. If the boiler doesn't run there is no residual heat to maintain or escape. So 1st floor was already insulated, and yes add in that pesky fireplace. Causes the downstairs to stay fairly warm. But at the cost of upstairs being 5-7 degrees colder.

So being I just dropped $6k in chimney liner and insulation, need to now maximum future spending. But up for another $1500. So I am contemplating 4 zone valves and taco ecm pump. This way I can control where the water goes. This is not lost next year when I replace the boiler from 75% to 85% efficiency and downsize due to the zoning.

neilc

what if,
for 0 dollars,
you go downstairs to the boiler,
and shut off by 1/2, the manual valves that service the 1st floor?
try to do this on the return side,
if we're wrong then you can always open them back up,
and spend that last 1500

TerrS

@neilc this brings up an issue somone mentioned, my 17gpm pump. Moving water even quicker thru my pipes. When I would cut the flow thru the other zones??

neilc

what?
i don't understand,
slow your flow to floor #1, more flow, more heat to 2nd floor,
it can't hurt to try

EdTheHeaterMan

@TerrS, I understand that you have a first floor that is too warm. What do the radiators look like?
I also understand that the second floor is about 5° to 7° cooler that the first floor. What do those radiators look like? Can you post Pictures of them? I was just wondering, since we are on the third page of a very simple yes or no question.

TerrS

EdTheHeaterMan said:

@TerrS, I understand that you have a first floor that is too warm. What do the radiators look like? I also understand that the second floor is about 5° to 7° cooler that the first floor. What do those radiators look like? Can you post Pictures of them? I was just wondering, since we are on the third page of a very simple yes or no question.

Everything is gen#1 slant-fins. Single element emitter.. 3/4"

EdTheHeaterMan

OK, so, put the second floor thermostat in and wire it up to the boiler/ burner/ pump control / whatever the existing thermostat is wired to. Then close all the dampers on the slant fin on the first floor. If the dampers don't work then purchase some white duct tape from the hardware store and cover 80% of the openings where the damper should be. This will stop the first floor from overheating.

You don't need to be an engineer to figure this out.
Set the first floor radiators like the left illustration. Set the second floor radiators like the right illustration.



I believe this answers the original query and does not cost a lot to implement.

Anyone have a problem with this solution?

hot_rod

So the panel radiators and kick heater you mentioned are gone?

TerrS

hot_rod said:

So the panel radiators and kick heater you mentioned are gone?

No, but it was easier to reply and since those are in the kitchen and it's colder than the dining room and living room. And those have their own thermostats that I can adjust water flow thru them.

TerrS

@hot_rod so it finally got cold enough to turn on my boiler and check all the questions that have been asked.

I started with all but the 1" zone ball valves off. I took my temperature clamp and watched my water heat started at 64 degrees and when It hit 105, I started to walk my house, I found it feed all of the 2nd floor and temperature pretty much stayed consistent.

I then went back downstairs, slowly introduced the next zone which was the attic. Again ran upstairs to verify it was what i thought and I repeated this same process for the other zones, I now have a diagram of which zones feed which fins.

The next thing I monitored was supply/return temperatures at the boiler. The basement and 1st floor loops, had around a 5-7 drop in temperature. The upstairs and attic had between a 10-12 degree drop making that long trip.

So my upstairs is getting sufficient flow thru that 1" feed pipe, then reduced down to that 3/4" to enter/exit the fins, btw which there is less than a 1 degree drop across a 10' section for a total of 51ft of fins and one 20" buderus rad in the bathroom. This was the zone that had a 10 degree drop supply to return.

So I need your help/opinion?

But here is my initial thought, I think I am way over pumped, as you once stated 180 degree water is still giving off heat but is definitely moving thru my loops quickly. A loop took around 2 minutes, from the time I opened the ball valve for my return to be hot like my supply.  Maybe a taco ecm pump at 10gpm ??

The other note, is the zones all empty into that one 1-1/4 copper manifold, so if you average 5-12 degree loop temperatures, so am I really getting all those btus back running thru my zones?

As I said I didn't design this, I am just dealing with what I am finding. I am also not sure I would short cycle if I did add another thermostat upstairs because I would combine 2nd floor with basement around 72ft of fins.  The other 69ft plus rad/kick would still be the original t-stat.

Not understand total, I can adjust my aquasmart to have a 15-20 drop instead of the 10 now before the boiler would fire again. That would be like 3-4 times around the loop before the boiler would fire, instead of probably 2 now

Thanks

Jamie Hall

I think you are on the right track, but i wouldn't be concerned about the relatively low temperature drop between supply and return. The radiation is taking what it can from the water at the temperature supplied, and slowing it down isn't going to make it take any more. The warm water coming back isn't a loss -- it simply means that it doesn't have be reheated as much, saving fuel.

TerrS

Jamie Hall said:

I think you are on the right track, but i wouldn't be concerned about the relatively low temperature drop between supply and return. The radiation is taking what it can from the water at the temperature supplied, and slowing it down isn't going to make it take any more. The warm water coming back isn't a loss -- it simply means that it doesn't have be reheated as much, saving fuel.

Do you see a possible solution? How do I get the water temperature to drop.

hot_rod

You re making progress, good move on the insulation upgrade.

Ideally we would like a perfectly balanced system, that meaning thr boiler and heat emitters exactly match the load on an assumed design day. But weather and heat loads can change minute by minute, so a constantly adjusting system would be needed.

If you widen the temperature at the boiler control the math is simple. 160- 180 for example. so 160+180=340 divided by 2= 170. So that is the AWT. And at some point you can only supply 160, just as the boiler gets to the low side of the aquastat setting.

Now commonsensically we would assume the same applies at the fin tube. The wider you run the temperature the lower the AWT. So that must transfer less, not more heat as the entire fin tube is running cooler.

Use the fin tube output sheet to confirm that condition. Attached below. Check the output at 180, 170, and 160. What do you see? Does output go up or down as the temperature in the fin changes.

Granted, small flow changes do not make a huge output difference as the chart shows when you look at the 1 gpm and 4 gpm column. In a graph 2-13 what you see is at low flow, output drops like a rock, see attached graph. You are looking to pick up output as best you can with what you have.

The first law of thermodynamics tells us hot goes to cold, always. Additionally hotter surfaces transfer to colder based on that temperature difference. The hotter the elements the higher the rate of heat transfer. Does a pot on your stove reach boiling at low or high setting faster? Why?

But there are trade offs, a tighter delta across the boiler will lead to shorter cycles. Since the boiler only has one output size. This is why I harp on modulating type boilers, they would adjust to the ever changing load. Faster flow requires more pump power, higher electricity cost. Does that matter if you are shivering in you snugaroo?

This 2-13 graph would apply to radiant loops, fin tube or forced convectors like your kick heater
Proof of the pudding is heat transfer stops when flow reaches 0 gpm🤓

So until you get it all sorted out to the the best of your $$, you will need to settle with some undesirables. Unbalanced temperatures, less than desireable boiler operating conditions, uncomfortable rooms, too much loss to the great outdoors, etc.

Certainly you can try any adjustment you want, lower- raise flow, lower-raise SWT. But if I were a betting man, and I am hydronically speaking…..

With the parts and pieces you have, we’ll you know the rest of the story

TerrS

@hot_rod thanks. So I agree with you about my limitations on where I am at.

I do understand the possible benefits of the modulating boiler, but for my time in this house 5-10years, it will not be in my future.

This is mostly having had to spent $2k on my chimney just to be able to use my current boiler this year. I need time to recoup that money. And doing everything at $$$$ was not an option. The insulation has always been in my plans, I just moved it to the top since starting these conversations.

My current thinking also is to install either an 87k or 101k output atmospheric boiler, because as you already stated, my boiler doesn't run for hours on end to meet the needs of this house.

I think the previous owner said give me a bigger boiler over a smaller boiler and adding zone valves to only send heat to where it was needed. I now have that option and it makes even more sense if I have real zones with valves. To downsize the boiler.

This money is not lost in the future upgrade except maybe the pump cost with the new bolier

hot_rod

TerrS said:

@hot_rod thanks. So I agree with you about my limitations on where I am at.

I do understand the possible benefits of the modulating boiler, but for my time in this house 5-10years, it will not be in my future.

This is mostly having had to spent $2k on my chimney just to be able to use my current boiler this year. I need time to recoup that money. And doing everything at $$$$ was not an option. The insulation has always been in my plans, I just moved it to the top since starting these conversations.

My current thinking also is to install either an 87k or 101k output atmospheric boiler, because as you already stated, my boiler doesn't run for hours on end to meet the needs of this house.

I think the previous owner said give me a bigger boiler over a smaller boiler and adding zone valves to only send heat to where it was needed. I now have that option and it makes even more sense if I have real zones with valves. To downsize the boiler.

This money is not lost in the future upgrade except maybe the pump cost with the new bolier

You are not alone or unique with you heating challenges, that is why this site even exists. Everyone here try’s to come up with fixes, some temporary, some more $$ and permanent.

My goal is that they end up with a better understanding of of how energy transfers. That allows them to make the best choices for how and where they can make system improvements

Everyone wants to know that the juice is worth the squeeze.

Robert_25

The low temperature drop through the loops is not a problem, so don't stress about it or the circulator specifications. The fact that you are seeing roughly the same temperature drop through all the loops means that they are all getting adequate flow.

Ed gave you a nice diagram that shows how to adjust the dampers on your fin-tube baseboard. If you find that the first floor is still too warm compared to the second, close the dampers part way and see how the house reacts. If the first floor is still too warm, close the dampers all the way and see how the house reacts.

If the first floor is still too warm after adjusting the dampers, you can throttle the flow to the first floor using the ballvalve you mentioned. It will take patience, but you should be able to get this balanced out pretty well without spending anymore cash.

MikeAmann

I can't help thinking that her baseboards are not getting the proper airflow through them.
Whether it be shag carpeting underneath, clogged with pet hair, something else....
@TerrS , please post a couple of pics.

JakeCK

People be all like "my house has cold/hot spots, grrrr" and I'm just all like hehe I love my big ol' cast iron rads.

TerrS

 @jakeck yep but not an option, so I have to play the cards I was dealt...

ChrisJ

TerrS said:

 @jakeck yep but not an option, so I have to play the cards I was dealt...

Not really.
When we were looking for houses I looked specifically for cast iron radiators and steam.

In your case you can buy new cast iron radiators and there's plenty of good used ones available if you wanted to go that route.

TerrS

ChrisJ said:

 @jakeck yep but not an option, so I have to play the cards I was dealt...

Not really. When we were looking for houses I looked specifically for cast iron radiators and steam. In your case you can buy new cast iron radiators and there's plenty of good used ones available if you wanted to go that route.

Um no, not in reality. I have 8-12ft runs of fins. The amount of plumbing work plus the size of said radiators does not make sense, financially or configuration of furniture.

Low profile buderus or runtal rads make good heat sense, but not financial sense, and they still require a fair amount of re-plumbing.

ChrisJ

TerrS said:

ChrisJ said:

TerrS said:

 @jakeck yep but not an option, so I have to play the cards I was dealt...

Not really.
When we were looking for houses I looked specifically for cast iron radiators and steam.

In your case you can buy new cast iron radiators and there's plenty of good used ones available if you wanted to go that route.

Um no, not in reality. I have 8-12ft runs of fins. The amount of plumbing work plus the size of said radiators does not make sense, financially or configuration of furniture.

Low profile buderus or runtal rads make good heat sense, but not financial sense, and they still require a fair amount of re-plumbing.

That's besides the point.
You said it's not an option, and that you have to play the cards you were dealt. That's incorrect. It most certainly is an option, you just don't want to use it.


That was my point.

Robert_25

MikeAmann said:

I can't help thinking that her baseboards are not getting the proper airflow through them. Whether it be shag carpeting underneath, clogged with pet hair, something else.... @TerrS , please post a couple of pics.

Or the dampers could be closed.  Not trying to insult the OP but this is a common issue.

ChrisJ

Robert_25 said:

MikeAmann said:

I can't help thinking that her baseboards are not getting the proper airflow through them.
Whether it be shag carpeting underneath, clogged with pet hair, something else....
@TerrS , please post a couple of pics.

Or the dampers could be closed.  Not trying to insult the OP but this is a common issue.

That's one thing I've learned from this thread.
I had no idea that baseboard had dampers.

TerrS

Okay, we have beat this horse to death.  All my dampers are open on all floors. That's not the issue. I have sufficient water flow to my second floor by the 1" main feed line off the boiler, I proved that on Saturday. My temperature drops from supply/return on the 2nd floor is 10 degrees, if you look at my Saturday update.

When the boiler doesn't run, for whatever reason. It could be I am baking a Thanksgiving turkey for 5hours or maybe running that pesky fireplace. The thermostat will NEVER call for heat. You can't hold residual heat when there is none produced!!

So after everything is said and done, I am going to downsize my pump to variable ecm. And add zone valves across my 4 zones. I will hook up upstairs and basement and attic and 1st floor together, so as to get flow and change my aquasmart to 15 degrees. This should prevent most short cycling issues and when the first floor is happy, the 2nd floor can ask for heat.

Lastly next year, I will right-size my boiler to either a 101k output or 87k output, depending on my comfortability. My boiler doesn't run 24x7, so the 113k only 75% efficient boiler is losing money up the chimney not only wasting gas when I don't need that capacity.

JakeCK

Then close the dampers in the area that is over heating. Problem solved. The master bedroom in my house will overheat if I leave the door closed because it is the only room upstairs with insulation in the walls and has the largest rad on the floor. Often there is a small blanket covering half of it. Works amazing and doesn't cost a penny.

TerrS

JakeCK said:

Then close the dampers in the area that is over heating. Problem solved. The master bedroom in my house will overheat if I leave the door closed because it is the only room upstairs with insulation in the walls and has the largest rad on the floor. Often there is a small blanket covering half of it. Works amazing and doesn't cost a penny.

Where did I say I was overheating an area, caused by my boiler running?? There are other heat sources in my house that will cause the one thermostat on my first floor to be happy at desired temperature. Closing the damper doesn't solve a thing, and causes more issues when the actual first floor needs heat.

JakeCK

Ok every time I read a post the story changes a bit. Its almost like this is a bad joke. This whole time we're talking about plumbing issues and balance issues and what have you issues when it's simply because you are using other sources of heat that are affecting the thermostat and causing the upstairs to be colder than the rooms with supplemental heat?

Ok gotcha. Stop using the other sources of heat sounds like a simple solution. I used to have a ventless log set in my fireplace. Running it obviously affect the t-stat just 10 feet away and would cause half the house to become colder. The solution was simple... Stop using the log set.