Steam boiler

SMITTY64

6th. Radiator 37&1/2" high. 9 sections. 1&1/4" sections  Brand American Radiator

ChrisJ

reggi said:

Ok..... I'll ask..did the house come with the Radiators pictured ?

SMITTY64

7th. 35" high. 5 sections. 1&3/4" sections  unknown brand

SMITTY64

8th radiator. 37%1/2" high 7 sections  1" sections.  Brand Holland?

SMITTY64

9th. Radiator 32" high. 7 sections. 1&1/2" sections

SMITTY64

10th. Radiator. 38&1/2" high 7 sections. 1" Sections.  Brand Holland

SMITTY64

11th. Radiator 37"High. 8 Sections. 1" sections. Brand unknown

SMITTY64

Yes. The house came with the radiators.  We have been here 20 years

SMITTY64

Never had the issues with the old steam boiler but had to replace as it was 62 years old and shot. The older steam boiler was even larger. You can kind of see the footprint of how large the old boiler was if you look at the floor. It was probably a foot bigger in diameter as the new one is set differently

SMITTY64

What am I doing wrong on this section thickness I thought it was between the sections

KC_Jones

I'm getting ~491 total for all the rads, puts you between an EG-50 and EG-55. Definitely don't need the EG-65.

Where you are.
EG-65 has a gross input of 238,000 BTU
Gross output is 198,000 BTU
198,000/240 (BTU/EDR)=825 sq ft
you have 491 sq ft
825-491=334 Which would be the pickup factor
334/491=68% pickup factor (should be 33% or close to it)
Pickup factor is supposed to be 33% which many of us feel is too much, but that's another discussion.
So by the classic sizing that boiler is ~26% oversized

Drop down to the EG-55 and you end up with 40% pickup factor or 6% over sized, which is much closer to where you want to be.
Drop down to the EG-50 and you end up with 23% pick up factor. That's where I would want to be knowing
what I do, but no contractor is going to do it.

I'd guess they didn't want to believe the numbers feeling they couldn't go that much smaller than the old one. I doubt there is any recourse on this one, but at least you know how much they have messed up. I would say the piping they did, while not conventional, is adequate.

ChrisJ

KC_Jones said:

I'm getting ~491 total for all the rads, puts you between an EG-50 and EG-55. Definitely don't need the EG-65.

Where you are.
EG-65 has a gross input of 238,000 BTU
Gross output is 198,000 BTU
198,000/240 (BTU/EDR)=825 sq ft
you have 491 sq ft
825-491=334 Which would be the pickup factor
334/491=68% pickup factor (should be 33% or close to it)
Pickup factor is supposed to be 33% which many of us feel is too much, but that's another discussion.
So by the classic sizing that boiler is ~26% oversized

Drop down to the EG-55 and you end up with 40% pickup factor or 6% over sized, which is much closer to where you want to be.
Drop down to the EG-50 and you end up with 23% pick up factor. That's where I would want to be knowing
what I do, but no contractor is going to do it.

I'd guess they didn't want to believe the numbers feeling they couldn't go that much smaller than the old one. I doubt there is any recourse on this one, but at least you know how much they have messed up. I would say the piping they did, while not conventional, is adequate.

If they need to drop to an EG-55 to make it acceptable might as well go with an EG-50.

With all that went on previous, I doubt any of this is going to happen.

random12345

SMITTY64 said:

What am I doing wrong on this section thickness I thought it was between the sections

Section thickness is the green line in that picture of your brown radiator I posted. Those gold ones are interesting. They look like Bundy...I will keep looking and give you my estimate.

SMITTY64

KC, so are you saying that since they used an oversized boiler I'm always going to have problems?

KC_Jones

SMITTY64 said:

KC, so are you saying that since they used an oversized boiler I'm always going to have problems?

I guess that depends on the definition of the word. Will you be able to get it to work if oversizing is the only problem? Yes. While it be the most efficient? No. Will you be able to heat evenly? Maybe, might have to go through all the venting, including the main venting to optimize it.

As far as the banging goes, need to get the skimming done and know the water is clean and if it's still banging need to dig deeper.

reggi

ChrisJ said:

Ok..... I'll ask..did the house come with the Radiators pictured ?

I think they're a interesting mix and as radiators/inlet valves are sized for rooms they are going in when s house is built I wouldn't consider it incompetent irrelevant and immaterial....
Unless you know something I don't please start a NEW thread and explain WHY ..
Thank you in advance..

SMITTY64

Here's the bottom line. I skimmed twice for 2 hours at a time. I never had this problem with the previous boiler and the banging and wooshing has returned. The header is only 19 inches above the water line and it's supposed to be 24. I think this may be part of my problem and the contractor is ignoring this as they cannot get the old piping apart. I also think the equalizer is piped completely wrong and this is another part of my problem. I reached out to the contractor and told him I want this fixed correctly. We've lived in this house 20 years and never had this issue with the old Weil McLain boiler.

I have attached a picture of the way the piping should look per the manual and it looks nothing like this. 

SMITTY64

This is how it's currently piped.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/znjopbUNripsfh3B8

leonz

I am sure I have asked this before, but would Dawn Dish soap or Fernox work to break down the oil to allow it to drop out faster?

KC_Jones

If he can't get pipes apart he shouldn't be quoting the jobs. I got pipes apart on my system and I'm just a homeowner. Sometimes you have to cut, grind, break, to get things apart to do the job correctly. His excuse is invalid.

I did not realize it was only 19" above the water line. Yes that would definitely contribute to possible problems.

Can you determine the exact location of the banging? I have another thought that the new boiler has a lower water line than the old, possibly bringing some part of the piping above the water. Depending on the location, this could be part of it. This isn't a definite, but it is something that can happen.

random12345

1) Crane, probably 20" not 19"? 21 sections, 3 2/3 sq ft/section, 77
2) Crane, 10 sections, 5 sq ft/section, 50
3) Weil-Mclain Cameo? 8 sections, 6 sq ft/section, 48
4) Nason I believe. 48: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=loc.ark:/13960/t3xs6mb1m&view=1up&seq=386&size=125&q1=radiator
5) Same, 64. For both of those I think it's 1 sq ft/tube
6) American Radiator Co. Corto, 6 sq ft/section, 10 sections, 60
7) Unknown, probably 4.25 sq ft/section, 6 sections, 25.5
8) I know I've seen this somewhere, I just can't seem to remember. In any case, most likely 5 sq ft/section, 7 sections, 35
9) American Corto, 5 sq ft/section, 7 sections, 35
10) Same as 8) but maybe in bathroom? 5 sq ft/section, 7 sections, 35
11) Looks like 3 column, can't see the side, 5 sq ft/section, 8 sections, 40

Total = 517.5

You can check several of these here: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112047386849&view=2up&seq=5&size=150

If you're sure you have an EG-65, then it's not oversized by much.

Can this boiler be downfired?

ChrisJ

reggi said:

ChrisJ said:

reggi said:

Ok..... I'll ask..did the house come with the Radiators pictured ?

I think they're a interesting mix and as radiators/inlet valves are sized for rooms they are going in when s house is built I wouldn't consider it incompetent irrelevant and immaterial....
Unless you know something I don't please start a NEW thread and explain WHY ..
Thank you in advance..

The system as is worked before the boiler was changed.

pedmec

This is why it is absolutely important to get the near boiler piping done correctly. You can skim till your blue in the face and you might never get a steady water line.

Steam is very dynamic. and its NOT VERY FORGIVEN WHEN PIPED INCORRECTLY. You should always start your troubleshooting with piping at the boiler. If it does not meet the manufacturer specifications for piping then there is a chance it will never get it to work correctly. These dimensions are minimum requirements. Never saw an oversized header a steam boiler didn't like. After this is corrected and if you still have a problem then you can eliminate the boiler.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@SMITTY64

The boiler need to be piped to the MFG. requirements at a minimum. Saying he can't get the pipes apart is a cop-out. You do what you have to do to make the install right. Header too low, the equalizer is not right

Jamie Hall

No soap. Soap or anything remotely like soap will defeat the purpose completely. It would be exactly the wrong thing to do.

SMITTY64

Soap? Who said anything about Soap?

random12345

I will repeat my question to nobody in particular, can the EG-65 be converted to an EG-55? After @SMITTY64 fixes the near boiler piping, could he just remove a couple burners or would he run into problems doing that?

Jamie Hall

leonz said:

I am sure I have asked this before, but would Dawn Dish soap or Fernox work to break down the oil to allow it to drop out faster?

SMITTY64 said:

Soap? Who said anything about Soap?

That was what I was answering.

ChrisJ

random12345 said:

I will repeat my question to nobody in particular, can the EG-65 be converted to an EG-55? After @SMITTY64 fixes the near boiler piping, could he just remove a couple burners or would he run into problems doing that?

No

The 50 is a down fired 55 so the 65 could probably be converted to a 60 easily but no smaller without risking things 

40 and 45 are the same block

50 and 55 are the same and so on

My guess is if you buy the burner manifold, rear burner support and drafthood to an eg60 that should be all thats needed

mattmia2

Ok, so my question about what controls were on the radiators and where those returns came from that tee together next to the boiler is more relevant now that we know that there was a much older boiler there I think bring us to another problem.

Someone that knows 2 pipe air vent systems will have to confirm my suspicion but I think that each radiator has an individual return and they must connect individually to a return below the water line. That tee by the boiler in the return that i was asking about connects above the water line now but it connected below the water line before with the original and previous boilers which had much higher water lines. Unless there is very low pressure control and orifice plates on the inlets to the radiators there will be steam in the returns. If those returns aren't isolated by getting below the water line before they join, steam will be able to get places it isn't supposed to be through those connections between returns.

These tees that are now above the water line are probably now all over the system and causing some of your water hammer problems. I suspect you will need a false water line to fix that part of the problem.

reggi

You wouldn't happen to have taken a few photos perhaps of the 65 year old Weil McLain that sat there before?
BTW... What determined the amount of blocks underneath that it's raised off the floor ? 

SMITTY64

I have a photo (attached) of the model# plate fom the old boiler.  The contractors put the bricks/slabs under the boiler. Not sure how they determined that. 

reggi

Well I'd assume they were trying to match the old boilers waterline or get it to specs for the new one..
Being it's quiet I'll take a stab at the installation...
They were the low bid , they got something close to what you had because it worked so well but never measured your radiators ?
Your system was something really unique and I'm sure there's a Deadman that made it work until it gave out..
Now you obviously hired people that have little or no idea how your system was optimized to operate.. they just made the new boiler attached to your pipes  .... modifying for their convenience...
Unfortunately as others have mentioned.. it's not right and your unusual system is now officially ", knuckleheaded" ..
What else did they do to the system? 
The return was already mentioned..
I wouldn't even know where to start but I'm not a Pro .. 
But you already know all this

pedmec

You can down size the boiler by removing the burner and spuds from the manifold and putting plugs in the manifold where the spuds came out. I've seen multiple boilers successfully done this way. its a lot easier than ripping out the boiler. And it works.

As far as changing the manifold to a smaller manifold why do that when removing the burners and spuds do the same thing. Going from a 60 to 50 manifold would not fit as the 60 has one more section added to it. Going from a 50 to a 55 is an additional burner, Going the next step up to a 60 is another section.

ChrisJ

pedmec said:

You can down size the boiler by removing the burner and spuds from the manifold and putting plugs in the manifold where the spuds came out. I've seen multiple boilers successfully done this way. its a lot easier than ripping out the boiler. And it works. As far as changing the manifold to a smaller manifold why do that when removing the burners and spuds do the same thing. Going from a 60 to 50 manifold would not fit as the 60 has one more section added to it. Going from a 50 to a 55 is an additional burner, Going the next step up to a 60 is another section.

Because the smaller manifold has different spacing between the tubes.  It also gets a different drafthood which you know will work.

KC_Jones

Also according to the Weil Mclain site there is no 60.  It goes from 55 to 65, so they don’t have an approved down fire solution for this that I can see.

ChrisJ

KC_Jones said:

Also according to the Weil Mclain site there is no 60.  It goes from 55 to 65, so they don’t have an approved down fire solution for this that I can see.

pedmec

Thats why you just remove the burner tubes and plug the spuds. Of course weil mclain is not going to approve of it in writing. No manufacturer ever approves of much modifications never mind on the gas side. They wont put it in writing but if you talk to them on the side you will get a wink and a nod. There really is nothing wrong with it. Just one less burner tube.

ChrisJ

pedmec said:

Thats why you just remove the burner tubes and plug the spuds. Of course weil mclain is not going to approve of it in writing. No manufacturer ever approves of much modifications never mind on the gas side. They wont put it in writing but if you talk to them on the side you will get a wink and a nod. There really is nothing wrong with it. Just one less burner tube.

Then why bother manufacturing different parts when they could just remove a tube?
I'd be concerned about impingement and efficiency at that point. There's a reason an EG-40 drafthood is very different from an EG-45 and it's not because it doesn't matter.

Obviously in the op's case he has no choice because someone sold him the wrong equipment. But I'd still want a combustion analysis done.

pedmec

@ChrisJ Nobody is saying not to a combustion analysis. What i'm saying is you either rip out your $20,000 or more boiler installation and all the pain in **** **** that goes along with it. or you have someone take two hours, maybe three and remove one of the end tubes and see how the boiler works. And you can't get impingement your not changing the gas pressure in the manifold.

As far as why the make different size boilers. i would assume smaller boilers are lighter. i would rather handle the smallest boiler possible. and they can get more on a truck for switching. Just a couple of examples.