Steam boiler

SMITTY64

The guys were out in late summer we ran the boiler for 40 minutes with no drama. Now that it's cooler the banging has returned and I can hear wooshing through the pipes. The sight glass went empty and tripped the low water cut off. My returns were all cleaned by myself in the summer. I think the header is either not large enough and definitely not high enough. I will attach pictures

SMITTY64

SMITTY64

They finally put in the proper skimmer and I skimmed the system but clearly water is going into the pipes causing the banging and wooshing. Any help is appreciated as I am ready to call a lawyer if they do not fix this correctly

SMITTY64

KC_Jones

How many hours have you skimmed it for?  If it doesn’t have much run time I’d say let it run for a week maybe more then skim again.

Skimming is slow and takes many hours.

The operation you are describing is indicative of surging due to oils.

SMITTY64

Should I skim when the boiler is warm?

SMITTY64

KC originally I think I skimmed for about an hour. When the water leaves the sight glass it looks pretty dirty I have been blowing down weekly

Jamie Hall

Skimming can only be done with the boiler simmering -- not boiling -- and is done through a skim port located at the water line of the boiler. You do have one -- the big pipe with the blue handled valve on it. It is also done slowly. You need to keep a very slow stream going -- not a whoosh -- so you also need to add water a little at a time to keep the water level where you want it.

It can take hours to do properly.

Blowing down the boiler should only be necessary every year or so, and maybe not even then.

KC_Jones

Can you show where the pipe highlighted in red goes to?  It looks like it has a gradual slope, and if that gradual slope crosses the boiler water line that could be the source of banging.

SMITTY64

It's a return from one of the Steam Heat radiators

KC_Jones

Ok that’s fine.  I’ll stick with surging still.  More skimming is in your future.

SMITTY64

The first bucket I skimmed very slowly it was pretty brownish with oils on top. It seems to be coming out more clear now. Will I have to run the system again let it simmer and then skim again?

SMITTY64

I will still keep skimming very slowly for the next hour to see how much more oil I get off

KC_Jones

You’re trying to take advantage of water and oil not mixing and the oil floating to the top.  Slow, couple gallons per hour.  Stream maybe the size of a pencil or smaller.

After skimming give it a week then skim some more.  If it seems to make things better you are on the right track.  If you skim a few times over a couple weeks and see zero improvement, then it may be time to look further.

SMITTY64

I really appreciate your help. We have a fairly large house with 11 radiators it's a two pipe system. I am under the assumption that there is probably quite a few oils in the steam supply line that will have to be skimmed out over time? Does it sound like I am on the right track. I've been skimming for over an hour and the oils seem to be less for now but I think some will return that is trapped in the pipes. Does this sound correct you?

KC_Jones

Yes it takes a lot of time to get all the oils worked out of a new install.

SMITTY64

It would have been delightful if the installer skimmed like he was supposed to when the boiler was installed. Thank you again for your help I will let you know how it works out.

mattmia2

The additional oils working out of the piping will eventually end up in the boiler, that is why you will need to wait a week or so and skim again and may need to wait and skim a couple more times. Running it while it was surging threw more of that oil up in to the mains where it will have to work its way back to the boiler.

Do both those pipes that tee together down low come from radiators or do either of them come from mains? Do all of your radiators have steam traps on the return?

What is the pressuretrol set at?

What happens at the end of the mains?

SMITTY64

The pipes are tea together I'll come from the Returns on the radiators. There are no traps on any of the radiators this is a two pipe system each radiator has relief valves which have been replaced. Not quite sure what you mean by what happens at the end of the mains?

KC_Jones

SMITTY64 said:

The pipes are tea together I'll come from the Returns on the radiators. There are no traps on any of the radiators this is a two pipe system each radiator has relief valves which have been replaced. Not quite sure what you mean by what happens at the end of the mains?

Could you post a picture of one of the radiators? There is a version of two pipe that uses vents at the radiators, but they are fairly unusual. Just want to understand what you are dealing with there.

SMITTY64

Here is a picture 

KC_Jones

Yep, two pipe air vent. Fairly unusual system you have there. Thank you for that.

Is that the approximate size of most of the radiators? I ask because with 11 radiators and an EG-65 boiler I'd expect some very large radiators. That said, it's possible they sized the boiler wrong, especially given their abilities with the piping you've been going through.

SMITTY64

Here are the other radiators 

ChrisJ

Just a 100% guess based on what they look like..

400sqft?

KC_Jones

Would need height measurements and view from the side to verify how many vertical "tubes" on each, but a very rough estimate of what you have there tells me the boiler is oversized...massively.

Depending on what the final EDR numbers come out to be, I'd take a wild guess that you could have gotten away with an EG-45 or EG-50.

Without height measurements and the side views it's a very rough guess at this point. I was estimating on the high side though. The 2 pipe type radiators we would need to see the brand on those and see if there is information in the museum or if someone else has the ratings. I found one brand in the museum and approximated from that, again was just a wild guess for discussion purposes.

SMITTY64

400 sq. Ft. Of radiators?

KC_Jones

ChrisJ said:

Just a 100% guess based on what they look like..

400sqft?

That about where I ended up with some guessing. If the OP wants to know for sure I posted what information we would need. I'm happy to run the numbers.

KC_Jones

SMITTY64 said:

400 sq. Ft. Of radiators?

Yes, it's the EDR rating that is used to size steam boilers. Your boiler is rated for 621, and we are estimating you in the 400 range.

SMITTY64

The weil mclain rep sized the boiler. The old boiler was much larger.

KC_Jones

SMITTY64 said:

The weil mclain rep sized the boiler. The old boiler was much larger.

Was it a Weil Mclain rep or a guy from the supply house?

All I'm saying is based on what I see there you don't have anywhere near the amount of radiation that the boiler would require.

If you want to know 100% post side views of the radiators along with height and depth measurements for each and I can add it up for you. The pipe style rads may be a hair tough, but I think there is info in the museum, if not someone else on here will know.

ChrisJ

Right now @SMITTY64 ,after the disaster with his piping, and then skimming, and now this, is over there thinking some less than fantastic things.

random12345

I would add that you should measure the section thickness, in addition to the height and post a picture of the side of each radiator. If you see any embossed writing in the red circled locations below for all of the radiators, post a close-up in-focus picture of that as well. We may be able to tell you the manufacturer and get you the actual trade catalog so you know for sure.

pedmec

You need to get rid of that horizontal equalizer. Its not helping the situation as its so low it causing water hammer too. The installer should have came out of the tee another foot or so and then face the equalizer straight down. Or go to rear of boiler then straight down. Try to eliminate horizontal piping of equalizer.

reggi

Ok..... I'll ask..did the house come with the Radiators pictured ?

SMITTY64

1st one

Height 19"   1" sections 20 sections

SMITTY64

Looks like the name is crane

SMITTY64

2nd. 38" high.  1" sections 9 sections. Name Crane

SMITTY64

3rd radiator 38" high  1-1/4" sections. 7 sections. Gemco/weil mcClain brand

random12345

Section thickness is not measured correctly.

SMITTY64

4th radiator.  33&1/2" high 3/4" sections. 16 sections. Name unknown

SMITTY64

5th. Radiator 33&1/2" high 12 sections. 3/4" sections