New Gas (steam) Boiler Install Questions

ChrisJ

@Jamie Hall look at that.  Gladys can be a fountain too.   

PiperPete

Thanks Chrisj... I will ask (assuming he still wants to do the job) to provide a nipple and cap for the skimming.

He did mention initially that my current boiler is oversized (500 Sq Ft Steam). My total Radiator EDR calculations which seems to be inline and correct is under the Sq. Ft Steam of the boiler, i.e. Total Radiator EDR = 317, boiler Steam Footage = 354. So I think we're ok on that.

In terms of piping: The present Weil-McClain has a single steam riser coming out of it that branches off near the ceiling into two separate sections (I have photos of that if a post is necessary). The new boiler (New Yorker, model CGS50c) has provisions for 2 risers if necessary (2nd riser is optional for he CGS50c) so it should work with a single riser. That's of course, my presumption.

I am think you're referring to the area of the piping: On Page 17, Figure 12 of the installation manual it shows 3 illustrations (not too good) with a large X through each as being "WRONG" but offers no contrary illustrations that are "RIGHT" or correct.

Can you clarify a bit more what would constitute "correct" piping vs. "incorrect" piping?

Thank you again Chrisj

random12345

Agree with @ChrisJ . I'm not entirely sure why the boiler manual has this complicated procedure. Maybe one of the pros here can answer that? As long as you have a skim port like what you see in that video, you can do it yourself repeatedly. You just have to make sure he installs it the actual port itself. Ideally there would be a little spigot at the end like this:

PiperPete

Ok, I see that it's a ball-valve with a spigot on the end. I will definitely cover this with the contractor.

Thank you both, again!

mattmia2

The instructions will say what tapping(s) can be used as a skim port. The opening has to be just above where the sections of the boiler connect together so that the surface of the water that is coming out the opening is above all the sections so that the oil floating on top of all the sections will flow out that opening.

random12345

Page 56 of the CGS50 manual indicates the skim tapping is on the left side only. You mentioned not having much room on that side.

PiperPete

UPDATE: Yes, the current boiler has a clearance is exactly 10" from the wall to left side of boiler. Per page 6 of the installation manual, the new boiler requires a minimum clearance of 6" on the left; I would presume (and I could be wrong) this is adequate for a 90 angle pipe joint to be installed on the "L" tapping with a ball-valve on the end to be installed for future skimming if necessary. This is a point I definitely will have to discuss with the contractor.

However, I also noticed that on page 33, item 23 regarding skimming (which, fortunately, was pointed out by KC_Jones), or as New Yorker Boiler referes to it as "boil-out", item 23(c) specifies taking 5 gallons of water from the boiler and mixing it with a compound:

"Drain approximately five gallons of water from the boiler and mix-in an appropriate amount of an approved boil-out compound."

The reason I mention the above sentence is that when I met and discussed the skimming issue with the contractor, after I pressed him on it, he did mention an "organic compound" for the boiler "boil-off". So in retrospect he was pretty much correct in saying a compound would be used. However, It was his incorrect statement that "this model boiler does not require a skimming" that was totally in error.

On my 2nd visit to the contractor I left some material with his office for him to review, one being a copy of page 33 from the installation manual, and 3 emails I received from the sales channel for the New Yorker Boiler that confirms what everyone here has been saying (that a boiler must be skimmed), along with a Technical Update from U.S.Boiler dated Feb 15, 2017, that suggests skimming be done.

So as part of this update I'm happy to convey that the contractor will be doing the job and has conveyed to me he will do skimming.

Water Quality: On page 35 of the installation manual it shows TABLE 2: STEAM BOILER WATER QUALITY CRITERIA. It goes on to say that the boiler's water quality should be monitored every 3 month to ensure its constituents are within the limits shown in table 2.

Now I have to presume testing the water every 3 months is something the homeowner would do and not the contractor. So I would imagine obtaining a water quality measurement kit (perhaps from Amazon) would be a good idea to test for chlorides, hardness and PH level. Chlorine levels in my area are particularly high because I can smell chlorine when cold water initially comes out of the tap. Whether it is within the ranges indicated in table 2 I could not say without measurement.

I'm just curious if anyone has had an issue, or experience, with this particular aspect of boiler water?

Thanks again!

Jamie Hall

Chlorine and Chlorides are not the same thing. Chlorine is a disinfectant, and not corrosive. Chloride (half of table salt -- the other half is Sodium) is quite corrosive in some situations, and you can't smell it. It's a shame that the spelling is so close... (there's a reason, but it's for chemists). The difference is not trivial and, frankly, if you missed it you shouldn't bother testing.

I haven't tested Cedric's boiler water in 16 years. If it is an industrial boiler, or in once through (consumptive) use, then you should test the feed water. Otherwise, perhaps when you initially fill the boiler you might want to adjust the pH. Might not, too. And that's it.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

Chlorine and Chlorides are not the same thing. Chlorine is a disinfectant, and not corrosive. Chloride (half of table salt -- the other half is Sodium) is quite corrosive in some situations, and you can't smell it. It's a shame that the spelling is so close... (there's a reason, but it's for chemists). The difference is not trivial and, frankly, if you missed it you shouldn't bother testing.

I haven't tested Cedric's boiler water in 16 years. If it is an industrial boiler, or in once through (consumptive) use, then you should test the feed water. Otherwise, perhaps when you initially fill the boiler you might want to adjust the pH. Might not, too. And that's it.

I'm sorry to disagree Jamie,

But "chlorine" is most certainly corrosive. Both sodium hypochlorite and calcium hypochlorite are considered oxidizers.

WMno57

@PiperPete I think it would be fine to get your new boiler installed, skimmed, and running on your tap water. Then later drain and refill with better water (if needed). Walmart has distilled water for a buck a gallon. I think aquarium people get the chlorine out, just by letting the water sit around in an open container.

ChrisJ

WMno57 said:

@PiperPete I think it would be fine to get your new boiler installed, skimmed, and running on your tap water. Then later drain and refill with better water (if needed). Walmart has distilled water for a buck a gallon. I think aquarium people get the chlorine out, just by letting the water sit around in an open container.

Boiling it should drive chlorine out.
I'd recommend running a good water treatment that has a corrosion inhibitor and an oxygen scavenger in it. Steamaster was what I always recommended on here, but I think due to issues finding it we've moved onto something similar. @ethicalpaul ?

WMno57

Thinking more about this. Wouldn't all the chlorine come out the first time you heated it? So probably not an issue.

ChrisJ

WMno57 said:

Thinking more about this. Wouldn't all the chlorine come out the first time you heated it? So probably not an issue.

Jamie Hall

"Chlorine" as a gas is corrosive (strictly speaking, it is an oxidizer), yes, as it dissolves readily and forms the chloride ion after reacting with water (it preferentially reacts with any organic material present, however, which is why it works as a disinfectant). The two hypochlorites are considered oxidizers -- and are, which is why they are used as disinfactants (in fact they are a real fire hazard, as a fire which involves them is accelerated by the oxidizing properties). They react with organics in the water to oxidize the organics and produce the chloride ion, carbon dioxide, and water Chlorine gas, however, dissolved in water, is not corrosive in the concentrations found in drinking water or waste water. It reacts very rapidly with any organics present to become the chloride ion (15 minutes is the usual quote for half-life). However, it is usually used in drinking water in the form of various chloramines, which have a much longer half-life and thus provide a lasting disinfectant in the water; they are the compounds which have the characteristic "chlorine" odour which people complain about. They are not corrosive. Both are driven off very rapidly as a gas if the water is either aerated or heated.

A lot of work has been done on chlorine chemistry in water with varying contaminants, as it is the most commonly used disinfectant. Some treatment facilities do use chlorine gas, but many use one of the hypochlorites as they are safer to store, transport, and handle. They also don't react as readily to form chlorinated hydrocarbons (although they still do) which is a problem with some types of water contamination.

The target concentration for either free chlorine (rarely) or chloramines is on the order of 1 to 2 mg/liter at the point of consumption -- the customer's tap. This frequently means that higher levels are present (up to 4 mg/L) near the treatment plant. Chloride, on the other hand, can be as high as 250 mg'L without upsetting drinking water standards.

Getting back to boiler water, however, the critical problem is not chlorine or hypochlorites, but the chloride ion, and that is critical as almost all metal chlorides are soluble. So the reaction chain of oxygen plus metal to form metallic cations yields metal chlorides in solution, which go away -- leaving holes in the metal -- rather than metal oxides, which don't (most are insoluble -- mechanically weak, yes, but insoluble. The whole idea of the various stainless steel alloys is to create thin films of metal oxide which stay put and are invisible. Some of these alloys are resistant to chloride attack, but a number of them aren't (it depends on the alloying elements used).

ChrisJ

@Jamie Hall
Does boiling the water drive chlorides out as it does chlorine?

WMno57

Sorry @ChrisJ, I'm a slow typist. My native language is @clammy. It takes me a while, (and computer tools) to convert my thoughts to English. Seriously. I hated school until word processors came along.

ChrisJ

WMno57 said:

Sorry @ChrisJ, I'm a slow typist. My native language is @clammy. It takes me a while, (and computer tools) to convert my thoughts to English. Seriously. I hated school until word processors came along.

I'm a slow typist too compared to some.....

Not many, but compared to some.

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

@Jamie Hall
Does boiling the water drive chlorides out as it does chlorine?

No. They are left behind, becoming more concentrated -- and more able to contribute to corrosion. Why you don't want to add water to your boiler any more than you have to!

In fact, chlorides are remarkably difficult to get out of water, once they are there -- your choices are reverse osmosis or distillation.

I wouldn't make a fuss about any of this, except that people tend to confuse the two -- and their chemical effects are so different.

mattmia2

Thinking about it some more, I suspect the aging or boiling makes water safe for an aquarium because the oxygen from the hypochlorite is released leaving sodium chloride or very dilute hydrochloric acid behind rather than the chlorine going anywhere.

rconkling

Depending on where you live, you may or may not have Chlorine in your water. A lot of places use Chloramine.

Chlorine is volatile is readily evaporates or boils off. Chloramine does not.

I have no idea if Chloramine is bad for a boiler or not.

You should be able to find a recent water quality report from your service provider.

Cheers

PiperPete

Seems I've opened another kind of can of worms with the water purity:

Yes, from my basic chemistry (long, long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far, far, far... I mean really far away!) I recall that Chloride is a compound of chlorine with a salt or ester of hydrochloric acid (don't ask me to explain that). But it's why I mentioned "Chlorine" even though the table 2 on page 35 of boiler installation manual) says "Chlorides". I'm also aware, too, that tap water can be treated withChloramine as opposed to Chlorine, and they are often switched periodically by the local Water Authorities to prevent the buildup of slime in the distribution pipes if just one were used constantly which would make the distribution pipes a potential source of contamination.

In any case, I'm not a chemist (thank goodness), so my primary concern is corrosion within the boiler's tank using my current tap water (presuming one or the other of the 3 items listed in table 2 is not met regularly). Should I be concerned, if at all, with the level of "Chlorides" in my tap water since that is where my boiler's water comes from. And if I should be concerned, because of the corrosive potential, then obviously there would need to be some kind of remediation applied, such as a filter and/or water treatment to the water source for the boiler - but that sounds rather drastic.

And boiling the water before it's entered into the boiler doesn't seem practical, especially since the contractor will not likely stand around waiting for me to boil x gallons of water that wouldn't take a couple of hours to complete the first time the boiler is fired up. (I can see the look on his face now!)

My current Weil-McClain boiler lasted 25+ years - and used direct tap water with no special water treatment ahead of its water source. So it would seem, at least in my case, this is not really an issue.
But then again, I have no idea to what extent my tap water was treated year 1 when I bought my house with the boiler already in place and working, vs year now. Meaning water treatment could have increased over this period of time (which according to reports from the local authorities, it has). If and how chlorination of the tap water played a role in killing my boiler is an unknown. I suspect its tank cracked (it now leaks) due to a faulty ignition control which may have let the boiler run with insufficient levels of water, rather than corrosion of the internal tank - I really can't say. But the fact that table 2 page 35 of the installation manual even mentions the issue of water purity makes me wonder if it's something I need to pay attention to.

Again, thanks, and again, I'm learning more and more just from having to put in a new boiler!

random12345

@PiperPete have you looked at your local water quality report? If you are in NYC,

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/dep/about/drinking-water-supply-quality-report.page

Chloride average = 25, Hardness average = 35, pH average = 7.3. The manual says pH should be between 9-12, so that might be worth looking at. These are not major worries though. You can get some pH test strips for a few bucks and test once in a while.

Jamie Hall

To clarify a little -- neither chlorine nor chloramine is bad for a boiler. If I were on a public water supply I'd be far more worried for my health if the weren't there; it's not just slime they might get rid of -- it's bacteria (which they kill) and virus (which they inactivate).

On the other hand, chloride is a problem, as it leads to soluble solutions of metal. The stuff your boiler is made of. Note that it itself doesn't react with the metal! It just makes it possible for the metal oxidized by any oxygen in your water to float away...

Chlorination -- either with chlorine itself or one of the hypochlorites -- had exactly nothing to do with the boiler problems you had.

Now. Getting rid of chlorine, which you don't need to do, is easy -- boil the water or aerate it. The first time you bring your boiler to a full boil it's gone. Getting rid of CHLORIDE however, is close to impossible without either distillation or reverse osmosis. And it the presence of CHLORIDE which allows your boiler to rust away. So, if your chlorIDE levels are too high, you would be well advised to use either distilled or RO water for the fill.

New York City, believe it or not, has some of the best tap water in the whole country. (Hartford, Connecticut is not far behind). I'd not even worry about the pH. Just use it straight. (Boston, incidentally for anyone in that area reading, is a different story -- it has high chlorIDE levels, which lead to boiler problems).

rconkling

I love a good tangent!

PiperPete

Yes, thanks, those numbers are from 2021's report. On the face of it, unless there were drastic changes to any of the three parameters, they're all within the limits of table 2 page 35, so they should not be an issue for the boiler. 2022's report has not yet come out, so it's something I will be looking for (I get an automatic update) and will decide if there's anything worth getting concerned over regarding the water quality topic. As of now it seems benign.

Thanks random12345, and everyone else in this thread!

random12345

Jamie Hall said:

(Boston, incidentally for anyone in that area reading, is a different story -- it has high chlorIDE levels, which lead to boiler problems).

Low chloride levels here looks like. Our pH is pretty high at 9.69 coming out of the Carroll treatment plant. I've tested it out the tap, it's a little lower. Makes washing clothing with bleach pointless. The water is so basic all the hypochlorite gets turned into chlorite anion which doesn't do much as a disinfectant.

https://eurekalert.org/news-releases/581270

https://mwra.com/monthly/wqupdate/pdf/cy2022/082022.pdf

bburd

@Jamie Hall I believe it’s Cambridge that has the high chloride levels, not Boston. Although nearby, Cambridge is not on Quabbin water; their supply comes from the Sudbury River I think.

Much of SE Mass. and Rhode Island have a high chloride problem as well.

PiperPete

TO: Jamie Hall, and all:

Looking for a Chloride test (digital or strips) on Amazon came up empty.

However, I did manage to find the following which may (or may not) be of interest, and I'll bet someone on this forum is familiar the product and might have used it. Then again, some things like this are pure "snake oil" and don't really work, or worse, the work against you, so, there it is.

https://www.boilerchemicals.com/Boiler-Rust-Inhibitor-s/37.htm

pedmec

Cambridge has the worse water. I have put in brass body valves and 6 months later they have cauliflower growing all over them. City water dept told me they keep the ph at around 8.0-7.9 prevent lead from leaching into the water.

Jamie Hall

For a chloride test, try an aquarium or garden pond store, such as The Pond Guy.

I'm glad to see Boston's water has improved. I wonder if it's that the State has reduced salt on I-190 or if the water folks have figured out how to bypass the Wachusett Reservoir? Or both? Because Quabbin itself is well protected and should be good.

pedmec

Cambridge treats their own water. They don't get referred as the state of Cambridge for nothing.

PiperPete

Couldn't find anything on Pondguy, but I sent them an email to get back to me.

Most of the tests I did find require taking a sample of water which gets sent to a lab for a complete report.

However, I finally did come up with inexpensive test strips which I presume are good for a basic test:

https://www.amazon.com/Industrial-Test-Systems-481027-WaterWorks/dp/B009MMQJ7U/ref=sr_1_5

https://www.amazon.com/chloride-test-strips/s?k=chloride+test+strips

Thanks again everyone!

BobZmuda

A high chlorine residual will absolutely harm your boiler and pipes and any epdm rubber.  

Your water plant will use a free residual test to ensure they’re getting past breakpoint chlorination - whether they’re using sodium hypochlorite or chlorine gas.  The total residual will be higher.  Part of reaching breakpoint chlorination (and avoiding tthms -cancer causing compounds) is the sodium hypochlorite reacting with reducing compounds first- including steel, yellow metals, pathogens, etc. 

if you have a free residual - your water treatment plant ensures you do  - then you have chlorine in your water.  From either sodium hypochlorite or chlorine gas. 

Here’s a chart showing what happens:

https://nextgws.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/heavy-metals.jpg

thats the chemistry by which every water treatment plant, water resource recovery plant, etc use for their disinfection by using sodium hypochlorite or chlorine gas. 

Furthermore, a high residual destroys yellow metals.  What happens when you have copper in your boiler from copper steam piping?  That’s the secondary mechanism by which it can destroy iron/steel. 

Jamie Hall

If the residual, free or otherwise, is high enough to cause metal or other problems, chances are both you and the treatment plant have more to worry about than that. Only time I've ever seen plants running high enough to cause damage in homes is where the turbidity can't be gotten low enough and you need the residual to cope with bacteria. Think St. Louis when the Mississippi is low.

The question always is in situations like that do you kill the bugs (and potentially cause problems) or do you chance it (and potentially cause problems).

PiperPete

I think I mentioned previously that my contractor will be doing the "skimming" (whereas previously he mistakenly stated the "this model does not require skimming". Why he changed his stance I don't know. Possibly by my bringing it up as a result of the knowledge I gained here from everyone's input here, and partly due to the info I received from the sales channel for New Yorker Boiler.

I'm also fortunate in that water in my area is statistically some of the best in the country and that my PH level and other factors are not out of line with the installation manual's parameters for water purity. None the less, water purity and how it relates to a boiler was not something I was aware of, so it's something I will check and discuss with the contractor as well.

Well this has all been an amazingly educational and eye-opening experience, and again, I thank everyone that has commented with their input, and especially those who initiated an ongoing dialog here.
You guys... and gals... are great!

leonz

Hello PiperPete,

this is coming from a novice homeowner;

What will help you a great deal with the skimming issue is to insist in writing that the fittings and pipe threads be washed and scrubbed in Dawn Ultra dish soap and hot water to remove the cutting oils too.

You don't want problems and washing the fittings and threads with a grease cutter like dawn dish soap will only help you.

All the pipe fittings will have cutting oil in the threads and inside the pipe breech for a few inches and the long pipe nipples should be stood up if they are very long and dunked in the hot soapy water in a deep bucket to dissolve as much of the cutting oil as possible. The soapy water will rise inside the lon g pipe nipples and if the bucket is deep enough reach all the cutting oil to dissolve it.

The elbows, tee's and short nipples can be dunked and left overnight to soak in hot water to start to dissolve the cutting oil.

If the plumber has pipe taps and pipe dies or good wire wheels instead of pipe dies to clean the large diameter threads all the better as they can clean the threads after they soak them.

If you have access to hot water from a laundry sink they can flush the fittings and pipe nipples out with a garden hose and garden hose nozzle too. The interior of the close boiler piping is going to be exposed to hot wet steam anyway so no worries there.

ChrisJ

leonz said:

Hello PiperPete,

this is coming from a novice homeowner;

What will help you a great deal with the skimming issue is to insist in writing that the fittings and pipe threads be washed and scrubbed in Dawn Ultra dish soap and hot water to remove the cutting oils too.

You don't want problems and washing the fittings and threads with a grease cutter like dawn dish soap will only help you.

All the pipe fittings will have cutting oil in the threads and inside the pipe breech for a few inches and the long pipe nipples should be stood up if they are very long and dunked in the hot soapy water in a deep bucket to dissolve as much of the cutting oil as possible. The soapy water will rise inside the lon g pipe nipples and if the bucket is deep enough reach all the cutting oil to dissolve it.

The elbows, tee's and short nipples can be dunked and left overnight to soak in hot water to start to dissolve the cutting oil.

If the plumber has pipe taps and pipe dies or good wire wheels instead of pipe dies to clean the large diameter threads all the better as they can clean the threads after they soak them.

If you have access to hot water from a laundry sink they can flush the fittings and pipe nipples out with a garden hose and garden hose nozzle too. The interior of the close boiler piping is going to be exposed to hot wet steam anyway so no worries there.

That's a good way to make sure the guy will never talk to you again.

mattmia2

There are better detergents for this than dawn.

Some pros have done this in situations where they couldn't come back to skim or skimming would be difficult but usually it is far faster to let the steam take care of it and just skim the boiler a couple times. There is oil in the boiler from manufacturing that also needs to be removed.

PiperPete

To: Leonz

Appreciate the input and suggestions. It's hard to get the contractor to put further requests into the proposal. Nevertheless, he has stated, and in writing, that he will skim the boiler, so that much is certain. When he (or his team) is here to perform the actual install I will discuss with him/them putting fittings onto the boiler ("L" tap) so that I can do the skimming post install and see what that gets me . And of course, the fittings will no doubt be an "extra charge" since it's not in the proposal. This is going to be very interesting. Stay tuned.

neilc

PiperPete said:

Nevertheless, he has stated, and in writing, that he will skim the boiler,

"and install to at least the minimal requirements as defined in the installation manual"

, , , that's not that many more words