New Gas (steam) Boiler Install Questions

JUGHNE

Possibly, if you want to read what is on that end plug, you could wire brush the loose paint off.

Then hold thin paper on it and rub it with the side of a bare crayon, the letters may show up.

It might take some practice.

Rubbing works on old tombstones where it is hard to read and also gives you a permanent record.

PiperPete

Well, that's quite an interesting story. All the radiators look like the the types I previously posted. And I can't see the cap with the company name on most of them except for the bathroom one, which I posted at your request for review. I will seek out those catalogs at the links you provided. for my own curiosity.

Regarding my numbers: They are correct arithmetically, I mean 2 x 2 = 4, so all I did was to multiply the edr from table 3 from the Guide Sheet based on the number of Tubes, times the number of sections for each radiator and those numbers are correct (I triple-checked them). And as I mentioned since there was no 22" or 25" radiators shown in table 3 I used the next one up which would bump up the edr slightly - but I could have missed one inch on those meaning the bump-up was actually the correct thing to do in retrospect. Based on what you're telling me my total EDR for both floors (12 radiators) is less than (by 35) the Square Footage Steam of the GSC50 boiler the contractor selected. So it is not exactly a "match" but it's within the capacity of the model he selected and since the next model down is less, I will tell him the GSC50 is the one to go with. Also, my house brick construction and is not insulated so there's heat loss there, and I have no idea whether the pipes are sufficiently insulated either.

There is one thing I would be curious about which is not considering the EDR Guide Sheet I used, what is the other way to computer the radiator's edr that would be more accurate? Since you were asking for thickness and width which is not used in the table 3 of the guide I used, it seems there's another method.

Thank you, and everyone else, for all the effort on this, it's much appreciated.

random12345

There is no other practical way I know of for an average homeowner to compute a radiator's EDR. I asked about the thickness because that helps to identify what type of radiator you have. The large tube-types were 2.5", but the later small-tubes after R147-41 were 1.75" and also sometimes 1.5". Make sure to mention in your email to the Smithsonian that you are interested in radiator catalogs. There's only one there for McKeesport, so it should not be an issue for them to scan and send it to you. I would send you mine, but copyright could be a problem.

I hope you have gotten more than one quote for your installation. There are other boilers available. For example, the Weil-Mclain EG-40 is rated at 321, close to an exact match:

https://weil-mclain.com/products/eg-series-6-gas-boiler

Might be worth discussing with your installer, but at the end of the day, I would get what they are most comfortable working with since installation matters more than brand.

If your pipes are easily accessible, you can and probably should insulate them, especially if they are in cold crawlspaces/garage, etc.

PiperPete

To Jughne:

Thanks for that suggestion: I had the same idea after I took the shot, but random12345 found the answer before I thought of the wire brush. If I can get to the other radiators in the future that's exactly what I will do.

To random2345:

I've gotten 2 quotes already, one in writing (things spelled out) and the other a verbal (doesn't want to provide a written), and I am waiting for a 3rd. Another contractor came by a month ago, inspected the boiler/room and said "I have your email and will forward you a quote." - never got one in spite of leaving a message and calling his business twice - case closed there.

However, I can't wait too much longer since I'm in the Northeast and it's already getting very chilly.

Both quotes I have are within the same price range and so far, I've selected the written one on the basis of the completeness of his written quote, and willingness to discuss things which is important, especially on such an investment.

My boiler went in over 25 years ago and the boiler room was built with the house (1932/33) when oil was the standard. Back then building code was very very different in my municipality. Things have gotten very stringent with code as a result of some catastrophic accidents involving gas explosions from non-certified work that took buildings down and resulted in lost lives. The contractor pointed out what could potentially be an issue, if not addressed, when my municipalities DOB (Dept of Buildings) inspector comes to certify the boiler installation and the room itself.

A number of responses on this forum and from what I've read say it's more a matter of how comfortable the installer is with the brand and model because "they're all basically the same" (and they all seem to have a horrible 1 year guarantee, and a "limited" 10 year warranty, which is also not so encouraging. Seems these manufacturers don't have faith in the longevity of their products.

In terms of brands the guy with the written quote provided info on 3 boiler brands, New Yorker, Burnham, and SteamMax (nothing on Weil-McClain). Long story short, the water level tube on the Burnham, and SteamMax on are on the left, like my current Weil-McClain. The water level tube and apparatus are almost impossible to access on the current boiler because the left side of it with the water level, etc, is up against a wall with about 8 inches between the wall and the boiler - extremely tight. Oddly, the New Yorker has the water level tube and other parts, all on the right side. So we both decided on the New Yorker so that it's serviceable when and if necessary. And since they're "all pretty much the same" it should work out.

The only other item I am concerned about is boiler skimming. I've read that with a steam boiler the metal shavings from iron pipes and the oils and grease from the manufacturing process must be removed as part of the installation or there could be issues with the operation of the boiler, and that the contractor is supposed to teach the end-user how to skim the boiler because it can take more than one skimming to complete. So that's one item that was not in the proposal I need to discuss with the contractor. I don't see a "skim valve" (if there is such a thing) anywhere on the New Yorker boiler diagrams. I'll have to review the installation manual and see if it mentions skimming as part of the installation process.

So that's it. I think Unless anyone has additional comments suggestions.

By training I'm an electronics engineer and as the saying goes, a little knowledge can be dangerous. So I can now say with certainty that I'm full of hot air!

Thanks everyone for your assistance with this, as I said, it's been a unique learning experience.

KC_Jones

NewYorker calls it surface blow off and it's letter 'L' in the diagram of the boiler on page 56 of their manual.  They are also a brand that recommends a boil out procedure instead of the typical skimming.

Personally I don't see the big deal with skimming (its just time) and the boil out procedure seems like more of a pain than skimming.  Either way something needs to be done.  Don't let them convince you of some magic potion they can put in and it fixes everything.  The oil needs removed from inside the boiler, no magic solutions can accomplish that.

With the EDR you calculated the CGS50C is right in line with the classic sizing method.

ChrisJ

KC_Jones said:

NewYorker calls it surface blow off and it's letter 'L' in the diagram of the boiler on page 56 of their manual.  They are also a brand that recommends a boil out procedure instead of the typical skimming.

Personally I don't see the big deal with skimming (its just time) and the boil out procedure seems like more of a pain than skimming.  Either way something needs to be done.  Don't let them convince you of some magic potion they can put in and it fixes everything.  The oil needs removed from inside the boiler, no magic solutions can accomplish that.

With the EDR you calculated the CGS50C is right in line with the classic sizing method.

Inside the boiler and any new piping and in my opinion it takes months of use to get it all washed out.
Adding stuff to the boiler isn't going to have any effect on the new piping at all regardless.

PiperPete

Thank you KC_JONES, and Chrisj. I've downloaded the CGS series manual and see that is shows the "L" tapping you mention on page 56.

So as I understand it, inserting any chemical solution will NOT "skim" the boiler. I'll have to discuss this with the contractor...

Much thanks again!

random12345

Ok. The SteamMax is made by Burnham, so maybe the other one you're looking at is the Independence? If there's no way to move the boiler away from the wall, then I guess you don't have any other choice. I want to emphasize I am not a pro, but I would take a second look at the SteamMax. In my limited opinion, I see no reason to consider the Independence when Burnham has developed the SteamMax. Your contractor appears to be mistaken. The LWCO and gauge glass can be on the left or right. It comes in a 321 sq ft rating, which can be upfired to 388 if need be unlike the CGS50, and it was specifically designed for steam. Now whether it's as good as the Megasteam, which I have, I don't know for sure, so I'll defer to the pros on that one, but the warranty is better than the New Yorker CG because it includes a 10 year waterside corrosion warranty. See this:

https://usboiler.net/making-the-steammax-a-steam-boiler-for-modern-challenges.html

And page 9 in the SteamMax manual shows the gauge glass can be installed left or right:
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/catsy.782/SteamMax+IO+Manual.PDF

Apparently @JohnNY has installed a couple SteamMaxes. You might ask him what he thinks about them.

Skimming is essential. Don't add anything like tablets or other products initially. Repeated shorter duration skimmings > one or two long ones imo. You will see the black oils and other filth come out gradually.

If you decide to go with the CGS50 anyway, take a look at pages 15-17 in your manual. At minimum your installer should be following these directions. Ask him to install two risers, not just one, also if he can install a drop header, that's even better, results in drier steam -> higher system efficiency. Demand cast iron piping only. No copper. I would also ask for domestic pipe fittings, not the imported stuff. Better quality.

Manual: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/catsy.782/CGS-C+IO.pdf

Why dry steam is more efficient: https://tlv.com/global/US/steam-theory/wet-steam-dry-steam.html

random12345

I edited my comment so you may have missed the changes.

PiperPete

No on the Independence boiler... He sent three separate brochures, the 1) New Yorker, 2) SteamMax (made by Burnham), and 3) Burnham (made by US Boiler?).

I have the Installation & Operation on the New Yorker but I'll have to review the SteamMax and Burnham as well and discuss this with the contractor. Don't know if it will up the price quote or not. We'll see.

Regarding... "Ask him to install two risers, not just one, also if he can install a drop header, that's even better, results in drier steam -> higher system efficiency. Demand cast iron piping only. No copper. I would also ask for domestic pipe fittings, not the imported stuff. Better quality."

This is where I need some clarification:
a) What are the Risers (what do they do?) and why two ?
b) Why no copper (is there a concern for electrolysis) ?

The Drop Header, cast iron piping only, domestic pipe fittings, are not specified in the proposal, so I'll have to discuss these items with him.


Thanks again random12345 !

ChrisJ

Honestly I'd much rather a weil mclain EG-40 over anything US Boiler has.
I'd also accept a single 3" riser into a 3" header on an EG-40.

If it has to be a US boiler product I'd want two risers as I believe all of theirs only have 2" tappings.


Many push for cast iron fittings here and I even used them my self.
Looking back on it, I probably wouldn't care anymore.

random12345

Burnham = U.S. Boiler. They only make two gas steam boilers, the SteamMax and the Independence.

Risers are the pipes that output steam from the boiler. Two risers instead of one helps to create a steadier waterline inside the boiler, which results in drier steam. A single riser might be fine, but two is probably better. If you saw the link I posted before, drier steam carries more heat per pound than wet steam. Makes your system more efficient. Also helps prevent water hammer among other things. See "A" on page 21 in the SteamMax manual for what a riser is. They also show what a drop header looks like:

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/catsy.782/SteamMax+IO+Manual.PDF

As for copper, see page 18 in the same manual. Copper should not be used for steam heat. Galvanic corrosion is only one of the concerns.

EDIT: If your installer wants to install copper, run away.

random12345

I would recommend reading one of Dan's books, either the Lost Art or the shorter We've got steam heat. You are an engineer. I think you will find the knowledge valuable. It's the best defense against an ignorant installer. Also try the Find a Contractor page if you haven't already.

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/

Feel free to post up here about your proposals but don't include pricing.

random12345

ChrisJ said:

Honestly I'd much rather a weil mclain EG-40 over anything US Boiler has.

Based on what? The fact that some of their other boilers aren't that great? Gotta give credit where credit is due. The EG is either water/steam, and however nice it may be, Megasteam and SteamMax were specifically developed for steam only, and tested for that. That counts for something. I don't like that Burnham won't let me convert my Megasteam to gas, and I understand some of their boilers are less than stellar, but that's not a reason to dismiss what they've accomplished.

I'd also accept a single 3" riser into a 3" header on an EG-40.

If it has to be a US boiler product I'd want two risers as I believe all of theirs only have 2" tappings.


Many push for cast iron fittings here and I even used them my self.
Looking back on it, I probably wouldn't care anymore.

You say that now, but you don't have to worry about your pipe fittings because you have confidence in them. I don't have confidence in mine. The difference in build quality is obvious:

https://supplyhouse.com/Ward-FCI90-1-1-Black-90-Cast-Iron-Steam-Elbow

https://supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-BLE100-1-Black-90-Elbow

ChrisJ

random12345 said:

ChrisJ said:

Honestly I'd much rather a weil mclain EG-40 over anything US Boiler has.

Based on what? The fact that some of their other boilers aren't that great? Gotta give credit where credit is due. The EG is either water/steam, and however nice it may be, Megasteam and SteamMax were specifically developed for steam only, and tested for that. That counts for something. I don't like that Burnham won't let me convert my Megasteam to gas, and I understand some of their boilers are less than stellar, but that's not a reason to dismiss what they've accomplished.

I'd also accept a single 3" riser into a 3" header on an EG-40.

If it has to be a US boiler product I'd want two risers as I believe all of theirs only have 2" tappings.


Many push for cast iron fittings here and I even used them my self.
Looking back on it, I probably wouldn't care anymore.


You say that now, but you don't have to worry about your pipe fittings because you have confidence in them. I don't have confidence in mine. The difference in build quality is obvious:

https://supplyhouse.com/Ward-FCI90-1-1-Black-90-Cast-Iron-Steam-Elbow

https://supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-BLE100-1-Black-90-Elbow

Based on all of the Burnham boilers I've seen pictures of being rotted out and the owner being up a creek. Two of which were in my own basement.

The Megasteam I'd consider as it has a good track record, but the Steam max or whatever it is, is too new.

Regarding fittings, I was speaking more in regards of malleable steel vs cast iron. I never said cheap low quality fittings were ok.

The reason some recommend cast iron here is you can shatter them to remove them. I remove fittings with a cutoff wheel so it doesn't matter what they're made out of. Literally.

random12345

And I had a Burnham V74-T that also developed a small hole...after around 25 years. Might have holed sooner than that. But 20 years is the median according to Consumer Reports.

https://consumerreports.org/products/boilers-37302/brand-reliability-only/

I think the newness of the SteamMax is not a major consideration because it's coming from an established company, and I would take a new steam design from them over something that was designed to be a hot water boiler.

ChrisJ

@random12345 you seem to enjoy arguing every comment.

I don't.

PiperPete

Ok, here's one proposal I received:

Total Pricing is removed with the exception to having to install a duct indicated under Capital Improvement to the outside for air into the boiler room which the contractor feels is required for DOB inspection, and that the current boiler room has a 12" x 12" opening that sources air from a garage that is unheated unsealed, and the inclusion of a new automatic water feeder to replace the current one which is not compatible with the new boiler.

--- PROPOSAL BEGINS ---

1. Disconnect and remove the old boiler from the premises
2. Furnish and install new New Yorker cast iron gas boiler, Model ¬¬CGS50 of steam, 138,000 BTU’s with boiler jacket and boiler trim. The boiler is 82% energy efficient and in compliance.
3. Furnish and install all pipes and fittings necessary to connect the new boiler to the existing piping.
4. Existing thermostat or existing heat timer remains the same.
5. Install new flue pipe from new boiler to chimney stack.
6. Assemble and test new boiler on job site.
7. Boiler trim consists of:
a. High limit pressure control of manual reset – Honeywell L404
b. The operating limit control – Honeywell L408A
c. McDonald Miller PS801-120 probe manual reset low water cut out
d. McDonald Miller 67 or equal low water cut off and water feeder
e. Approved backflow preventer if needed.
f. Safety valve, gauge glass set
g. All boiler controls will operate on 110/115 voltage
8. Electrical wiring to be performed by licensed electrician is included in the price.
9. Gas line pipe from gas meter to boiler remains as is.
13. Test newly installed gas line according to DOB requirements.
14. File for LAA permit with DOB (Plumbing and Boiler Division).
15. Arrange for an inspection with DOB (Plumbing and Boiler Division).
16. All work is guaranteed for 1 year. Boiler manufacturer’s warranty is:
a. Residential cast-iron steam boiler – Manufacturer limited warranty.
b. One year Manufacturer’s warranty for all controls.
17. Remove all rubbish upon completion. Sweep broom-clean the work place upon completion.

CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT
NOTE: Price valid for 15 days.
NOTE: Filing fees to DOB to be paid directly by the Owner. ACP5 Asbestos Report to be paid
directly by the Owner to the Engineer. The customer is responsible for all penalties imposed by any
Governmental Agency, issued prior to commencement of our work, if any, that may prevent us from
processing permit. If any changes are to be made to gas service piping due to not holding test?
Requirements, there will be an additional charge. We are not responsible for any repairs of walls,
floor or ceiling. If additional inspections are required due to the acts of the Owner, an additional
fee will be charged. Customer is responsible for cleaning the chimney. Asbestos removal is not
included. Repair of any leaking steam return piping will be an additional charge. There will be NO
Sign-Off before Final Payment is received. If plans are needed, they must be filed by an Architect
or Engineer at an additional cost. We are not responsible to have boiler room comply with DOB
requirements. Electrical permit is not included. Customer reneging on payment terms will be
responsible for lawyer fees in the sum of 30% of unpaid amount. A Finance charge of 1 ½% per
month past 30 days due and cost of Lien (if any) shall be charged. Install fresh air from the boiler
room to the outside …$x.00. Burnham and Weil McClain glass gauge is on the left side New
Yorker is on the right hand side.
Automatic water feeder: $ x

--- PROPOSAL ENDS ---

random12345

Please remove all prices. Forum rules.

I didn't expect you would post up the whole proposal, just highlights. Maybe some of the pros on here can give you their input though. I don't see anything about cast iron vs copper either. Only other general recommendation I can add is to get your chimney inspected to make sure it's in good shape.

WMno57

I saw the proposal, now its gone.
two comments:
The proposed change to supply combustion air from the outside instead of the garage,is to prevent car with leaking gas tank from making boiler go BOOM! Good catch by your contractor.
I suggest you add language to line 3 that contractor will pipe boiler as described in New Yorker installation manual in steel threaded pipe. No copper.

PiperPete

Per your comment, I removed the two prices for some items, saved it and it said the post will appear after approval. So I'm not sure when it will reappear.

I had a meeting this morning with him and got some open items nailed down. One being the Skimming. His response was that this particular boiler does not require skimming, but he can use a compound (not chemical compound) to do the same. Though I've read that ALL steam boilers have to be skimmed, I can't refute this since I don't have the expertise to do so. He explained the process and it's a bit time consuming so I suspect that's the reason he doesn't want to do it without a skimming compound. I sent an email to New Yorker Boiler asking them about skimming but I don't really expect a reply since they don't provide a Homeowner portal for this sort of thing and direct service/related issues to the contractor, which in this instance doesn't work.

I'm in a bit of a time constraint because the contractor who I expected to do the work and which did work before installing a new water-heater, suggested I call back after the summer around this time. However, seems he doesn't want to deal with this because I've gotten no call-backs. He doesn't want to get involved with the City with boiler certification. He just wants to do a swap out of the current. That's not going to be legal in my area and I can be fined significantly for an "illegal" boiler installation. So at this point I can't really take the time I'd like and finesse subtle issues because Winter will be here soon and I don't want to have bursting pipes, etc.

I can repost the cleaned proposal but then the previous might show up.

PiperPete

Reposting the one proposal minus any prices:

------ POPOSAL BEGINS -------

1. Disconnect and remove the old boiler from the premises
2. Furnish and install new New Yorker cast iron gas boiler, Model ¬¬CGS50 of steam, 138,000 BTU’s with boiler jacket and boiler trim. The boiler is 82% energy efficient and in compliance.
3. Furnish and install all pipes and fittings necessary to connect the new boiler to the existing piping.
4. Existing thermostat or existing heat timer remains the same.
5. Install new flue pipe from new boiler to chimney stack.
6. Assemble and test new boiler on job site.
7. Boiler trim consists of:
a. High limit pressure control of manual reset – Honeywell L404
b. The operating limit control – Honeywell L408A
c. McDonald Miller PS801-120 probe manual reset low water cut out
d. McDonald Miller 67 or equal low water cut off and water feeder
e. Approved backflow preventer if needed.
f. Safety valve, gauge glass set
g. All boiler controls will operate on 110/115 voltage
8. Electrical wiring to be performed by licensed electrician is included in the price.
9. Gas line pipe from gas meter to boiler remains as is.
13. Test newly installed gas line according to DOB requirements.
14. File for LAA permit with DOB (Plumbing and Boiler Division).
15. Arrange for an inspection with DOB (Plumbing and Boiler Division).
16. All work is guaranteed for 1 year. Boiler manufacturer’s warranty is:
a. Residential cast-iron steam boiler – Manufacturer limited warranty.
b. One year Manufacturer’s warranty for all controls.
17. Remove all rubbish upon completion. Sweep broom-clean the work place upon completion.


CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT

NOTE: Price valid for 15 days.

NOTE: Filing fees to DOB to be paid directly by the Owner. ACP5 Asbestos Report to be paid directly by the Owner to the Engineer. The customer is responsible for all penalties imposed by any Governmental Agency, issued prior to commencement of our work, if any, that may prevent us from processing permit. If any changes are to be made to gas service piping due to not holding test? Requirements, there will be an additional charge. We are not responsible for any repairs of walls, floor or ceiling. If additional inspections are required due to the acts of the Owner, an additional fee will be charged. Customer is responsible for cleaning the chimney. Asbestos removal is not included. Repair of any leaking steam return piping will be an additional charge. There will be NO Sign-Off before Final Payment is received. If plans are needed, they must be filed by an Architect or Engineer at an additional cost. We are not responsible to have boiler room comply with DOB requirements. Electrical permit is not included. Customer reneging on payment terms will be responsible for lawyer fees in the sum of 30% of unpaid amount. A Finance charge of 1 ½% per month past 30 days due and cost of Lien (if any) shall be charged. Install fresh air from the boiler room to the outside …$x.00. Burnham and Weil McClain glass gauge is on the left side New Yorker is on the right hand side.

---- PROPOSAL ENDS -----

PiperPete

TO: WMno57

Thanks for the comment: The contractor mentioned the possibility of a fire/explosion and is why he suggested the separate air duct to outside air to feed the boiler room. It is something I will go with, and it is something the DOB inspector may or may not pick up on as the contractor mentioned.
I also confirmed that all piping will be cast iron and not copper. However I have not completely reviewed the Installation Manual for the New Yorker Boiler, so I'll have to see where it is spelled out for steel threaded pipe.

random12345

Where are you located? No need to be exact, just rough area, for example around NYC, Boston area, CT, RI, Philly? Some of the pros on here might be able to help you out. Did you use the Find a Contractor tool? I understand you're feeling the pressure to get this done, but a single proposal is not ideal.

https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/

I see no mention about installing main vents on your steam mains either. That's essential. And again, the SteamMax can have the gauge glass on either side so that's not accurate. Agree with @WMno57 about piping. The New Yorker brand is apparently owned by Burnham too FWIW.

About the fresh air intake from outside, that may lower your boiler's stack temperature (the temperature of the flue/exhaust combustion gases) and cause condensation issues especially if you have an external chimney with no liner. That's why I mentioned getting it inspected. The flue gasses can condense inside the chimney and because they are corrosive will gradually disintegrate the interior of the flue. Just be conscious about that possibility going forward. It's something to pay attention to.

WMno57

OK, your contractor has passed the piping material test. All black pipe sold today in the diameters we are discussing is steel pipe. Some people still call it cast iron, but that's just semantics. Fittings that thread onto the threaded pipes are made of cast iron or steel. Either are fine. Specifying "threaded" in the contract would preclude the use of Megapress which is a method of joining un-threaded pipe. Some here are not a fan of Megapress, but in your situation, beggars cant be choosers.
IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOUR CONTRACTOR FOLLOW THE INSTALLATION MANUAL IN REGARDS TO HOW HE RUNS THE PIPES TO CONNECT THE NEW BOILER TO THE EXISTING PIPING. This is critical to ensure the proper flow of steam coming out, and condensate returning. Can't just connect A to B in a willy-nilly manner. Dimensions, heights, location of fittings, layout, and pipe sizes are all critical.
Everything points to your contractor being someone who can correctly install the boiler. EXCEPT the NO SKIMMING part. Ask him to put skimming fittings on the boiler and plan to DIY the skimming.
Good thing you are not me. If he had told me it was a compound not a chemical, I would have laughed and he would have been insulted. And then I would be cold and my pipes would burst (not really, I'd drain the pipes before it got that cold).

PiperPete

TO: random12345:

I'm in the NYC/Queens County Area.

Find A Contractor: Yes, I ran the Find Contractor on this site a couple of days ago (10 mile radius) and it didn't come up with anything nearby except for 1, so I did send a request and perhaps I'll get a response. Others are much further away.

Main Vents: The contractor did mention them and looked for them didn't see them or could find any that were in plain sight, there are none in the boiler room itself. Keep in mind the current Weil-McClain went in over 25 years ago and with it there were no issues (until this past year with water leakage). He did say the 1st floor radiators may act as a vent, but it's an unknown at this point.

Chimney: he did look at it but didn't mention any issues with it. Hopefully, there will not be any. As you say it may become an issue later so I'll keep it on the back-burner (no pun intended).

TO: WMno57:

In terms of asking him to follow the install manual: I can do that certainly, but even though I'm an electronics engineer, I'm not a hydronics expert, or Licensed Plumber as he is, so it would be kinda like the Blind leading the Dumb... But I can certainly do that... And I noticed there are 2 risers (if that's what they are) on the New Yorker boiler, where as my current boiler only has one large diameter pipe (I don't know the diameter in inches).

If it's helpful, I can take a shot of the boiler room as it is now, with all the pipe work, and post it to see what my Weil-McFrankenstein creation really looks like. So let me know and I'll do so.

Golly-Jeepers, and they said electronics was complicated!

PiperPete

TO: WMno57:

Forgot to mention, I can ask him to add skimming fittings, and no doubt it will cost xtra, but I can ask him. He'll likely charge his time to instruct me as well, but hey.

ChrisJ

PiperPete said:

TO: WMno57:

Forgot to mention, I can ask him to add skimming fittings, and no doubt it will cost xtra, but I can ask him. He'll likely charge his time to instruct me as well, but hey.

I would insist on a skim port.
It's not optional in my opinion. Any time any oil, pipe dope etc is introduced into the system that skim tapping will be needed to rinse everything out.

It can also be used to add treatments etc.

PiperPete

TO: Chirsj

Ok, that's what I'll do, Skim port or Skim Fittings.

Thanks!

random12345

Agree with @WMno57 about the skimming. Installation of a skim port is non-negotiable. If you don't see main vents, then he needs to install a tapping on the wet return preferably.







If your boiler lacked main venting all these years and was oversized, I bet you think whistling radiator vents and the occasional hammering in pipes is normal...All of that can be eliminated with a proper installation.

Go further out than 10 miles. I just checked 30 miles, that's not a problem at all...Lots of steam guys in NYC. No reason at all to limit yourself. @JohnNY and @STEAM DOCTOR are two regulars on here I've seen for example.

Regarding the chimney, there is no way for your contractor to assess its condition, you need a licensed chimney sweep.

I studied computer science, EE is much more complicated, it's just that steam is a dying art. Requires some self-study is all.

PiperPete

TO: random12345.

I will insist on a skim port. Unfortunately, there's no way for a homeowner to reach New Yorker Boiler to speak with a live person to get something in writing that says the boiler must be skimmed. Unfortunately, too, there's no kind of addendum or info in the installation manual that emphatically says the boiler must be skimmed.

I will try a search again.

I'm also trying to reach a distributor/sales and see if they have anything in writing that details the "boil off" process, as KC_Jones previously commented about regarding the boil-off process as New Yorker Boilers refers to it.

Computer Science, EE, Hydronics... Clearly it's a matter of exposure and experience.

But what bugs me a bit... actually a lot, is that some of these things, like skimming, should not be left up to chance and whether the contractor thinks is required. But then again, how often does a typical contractor install a boiler, probably not often enough? And how does a typical homeowner without experience in boiler installation and the subtleties involved, know any better and challenge or insist on this or that. But it's great there are individuals such yourself and other pros on this website willing to provide expertise and help.

Thank you again.

random12345

No problem. Happy to help. Don't waste your time with New Yorker or your distributor, just get a different contractor. There is no such thing as "boiling off" casting/threading oils. They have to be manually removed by skimming. And I'm not a pro, just homeowner who likes passing on what I've learned. I know the limits of my own knowledge. You need a real steam pro to get your installation right.

KC_Jones

The boil off process I spoke of is in the manual that comes with the boiler. Page 33 item 23

KC_Jones

Also to be clear I don’t think anyone commenting on your thread is a professional.

Makes one wonder even more doesn’t it @PiperPete?

PiperPete

Awesome KC_Jones... I can point that out to the contractor now and say it's "required"

I don't know how I missed it! Apparently I need to check my eyeballs!

Thank you !!!

random12345

@KC_Jones I read that part in the manual just now. "Boil off" = skimming I now understand. Why do you think they recommend doing it this way? Wouldn't it be easier to just install a skim port? Seems like a lot of extra work.

PiperPete

I either didn't get to it, or just missed it. But the good thing is it's there in writing, from the manufacturer of the boiler, so any contractor can not say it's not required, or "this model does not require it" as mine did.

I don't hold such answer against anyone, but on the face of it, it's clearly incorrect. It also points out he has likely not installed this boiler by the manual. Or if he has, just skimmed (no pun intended) over that requirement previously. I don't like to attribute negative motivation because often it can be incorrect. But I think the more reasonable answer, if he wasn't really sure, would have been "if the boiler requires skimming we will ensure it's done" or something like that. But everything I'\ve read on steam boilers mentions they need to be skimmed, and I'm sure he knows that and is looking to do it the easy-way out.

The user manual mentions monthly maintenance. But I don't want to have to skim it on the initial installation if it's required as part of the install process, as KC_Jones aptly pointed out on page 33 item 23 of the manual. However, the manual doesn't say MUST, but suggests it SHOULD be done (and in my book SHOULD means MUST). So that kinda leaves it up to the installer's discretion, especially if time is an issue. But I'd be happy to do it going forward with some basic training so I have half a sense of what I'm doing and why.

In any case, that answers the question.

And the issue of vents is something he pointed out, as well as the need for a duct for direct outside air. So I he's a conscientious guy and hopefully will not object to doing the right thing, at least I hope not. If he does, then I'll have to find another contractor and drain all my pipes if I can't get one before the really cold whether hits. Florida is looking more and more attractive

Thanks again everyone !

random12345

Let us know how it all works out @PiperPete

PiperPete

TO random12345:

Here's a quick update on this thread...

I discussed skimming with the contractor, face-to-face, and he was not exactly thrilled that I'd caught him in what is for all intents a lie ("... this model boiler does not require skimming") and he'd just gotten out of a meeting and wasn't in the best mood, but he did explain the process. He's also partial to using compounds (he referred to them as organic).

Meanwhile, after seeing him, I actually managed to get a response from the boiler manufacturer through the sales channel and yes indeed, skimming of the model boiler in question is required, and worse, if it's not done it could void the warranty!

I went back to speak with the contractor (he was out of the office) to ask that the skimming be included as a line-item in my proposal, and that he follow the installation manual. I left the info I received from the sales channel and page 33, item 23 from the installation manual that details the steps to skim the boiler (thanks to KC_Jones), but I haven't yet received an updated proposal. Even if he doesn't want to do the skimming if he's willing to instruct me I can live with that.

I'll know Monday where this all goes, at which time I'll post an update.

ChrisJ

@PiperPete

This is basically what skimming is

https://youtu.be/nPKTSn-depc

There's a few more details you need to know but that's basically what you're up against.

You'll be fine just make sure he gives you a way to do it.  I'm betting hes more trying to avoid the time consuming part of the actual skimming.



Make sure the boiler isn't oversized.
Make sure it's piped correctly
Make sure it's got at least a  nipple and a cap for a skim port

You can handle the rest