Burnham / US Boiler manufacturing delay(s)? Anyone know what is really going on?

Rusty2

'Ordered a Burnham MST 513 in July. I convinced myself it was the best thing out there for steam. It was supposed to be here Oct 4th (tomorrow). That got puched back to Nov 6th and then to Dec 23rd. Are these delivery dates random numbers? Called US Boiler who said they were having trouble getting parts from "overseas". This is a (fancy) cast iron pot that boils water. It's forged in Pennsylvania I believe. Burners, LWCO probes, water feeders can be delivered tomorrow and I already have them. I looked through the parts list in the manual and cannot figure out what parts come from "overseas". Have the people at the factory been forced (against their will) to sit around and look at each other while they wait for the "parts" to arrive from overseas? I don't get it. What parts?

The old boiler was taken out, cut up and brought to the scrap yard in the spring. This was a more than adequate window to get a new boiler, right? Everything was piped in the summer with a dropped header and swing joints ready to accept a MST 513 with returns and Hartford/Gifford loop as close as possible to being ready. Plenty of time to put in a new boiler. Right.

Anybody know what the story is at US Boiler?

EdTheHeaterMan

call Velocity Boiler Works in Philadelphia to see if they have this boiler in stock formerly Crown Boiler
https://www.velocityboilerworks.com/product/freeport-2-fsz/
Johnstone supply is a distributer for Crown Boiler.
The only difference is the sporty two tone paint job
you cant expect the boiler manufacturer to release a product without those important imported throw away plugs, Can you?

pedmec

how about gas valves, burner tubes, burner manifold, etc just to name a few parts. there is a pretty big list of parts to build a boiler. if you open up the manual and go to the back pages you will see the list of parts.

EdTheHeaterMan

https://www.velocityboilerworks.com/documents/freeport_2_steam_near_boiler_piping_schematic.pdf
Does this look the boiler you are pre-piped for? The FSZ 130 looks like the MST 513. With supply chain issues in the news, this specification change should be a no brainer for your customer.

Rusty2

Thank you Ed. The piping and dropped header look the same to me. It could be those pesky red thread connectors you showed in the photo that's holding up the show. The two tone color may be a good match for the basement decor. I will give Velocity Boiler Works and Johnstone a try. Thanks again.

HomerJSmith

Know what's going on? I don't even suspect what's going on. However, not knowing anything doesn't stop me from expressing an opinion.

It's a SUPPLY PROBLEM, a lack of parts as expressed by others because of transportation hang-ups, manufacturing hang-ups all because of the supply shortage of LABOR,Labor,labor. Yet to be revealed on 6 o'clock news.

Rusty2

Then Burnham said it would ship Dec 13-15. Just got an email today, Dec. 10, saying the MST has been delayed (yet) again. It's the same story with Crown, which is the same boiler in a different package. I guess there's no steam heat at our house this winter. How does a manufacturer (US Boiler/Burnham) stay in business if it doesn't ship any products?

ethicalpaul

They're probably shipping lots of products, but you aren't at the front of the line yet

MikeAmann

Global economy - you gotta love it.

Mad Dog_2

This is ridiculous. Never seen it so bad. I'm a Burnham Lifer and I know ALL the big American boiler manufacturer's have the same wait times, but please! I've heard and read that the Anti-Oil and Anti-gas fossil fuel lobby have new found power and influence and are the biggest cause through trade agreements and environmental rules and laws. The same folks who are FORCING electric cars on us. Yeah, they are really great, especially the battery fires they get that the firemen put out, only for them to start up again hours later, the next day, even the next week. These motorized bike's batteries have started a lot of fires in NYC apartment buildings and bike shops. No thanks, Mad Dog

MikeAmann

Look at the bright side.
You now have no heat, so maybe you qualify for one of those government heating assistance programs.

EdTheHeaterMan

@Mad Dog_2 You are not allowed to have this opinion. You must comply with the government! The government knows what is best for you. We should never question what the government is doing for our welfare. Just because a few batteries are causing some minor fires, this is no reason to question our leaders. Just ask any one in the mass media. They can attest to all the good things that are happening as a result of these minor inconveniences. A death or injury is only a minor collateral damage, as long as it doesn't happen to the people making the rules

FYI. Italics = sarcasm

Mad Dog_2

It's asinine and defies common sense and logic. I'm all for new technology - where it makes sense and is pragmatic and with a swift R.O.I. How is electricity generated? Coal, oil, gas at the power plants and sometimes you gotta dam up a river for Hydroelectric power! "THEY" always know better than we do. Mad Dog

Long Beach Ed

Gas and oil heating is now outlawed in new construction and major renovation in New York City.

Just install 400 AMP service and heat your 1200 sq. ft. house with electric for $18,000/year.

ethicalpaul

Come on Ed, you know you are quoting electric size and rates for resistive heating and that is not relevant to this discussion. It's fine to hate heat pumps for whatever reason, but at least be honest about it.

Long Beach Ed

They are not installing heat pumps, RelevantPaul.

Builders are installing baseboard resistance heaters because they are cheaper than heat pumps and buyers really care about the granite countertops.

Mad Dog_2

You nailed it Ed!  People have their priorities!!!!!  Mad Dog 🐕 

Chris_L

Long Beach Ed said:

They are not installing heat pumps, RelevantPaul.

Builders are installing baseboard resistance heaters because they are cheaper than heat pumps and buyers really care about the granite countertops.

They're not? Where are you located Long Beach Ed?

Here in the Boston area, about the only resistance heating you see builders putting in is as a back-up to heat pumps (heat coils). Baseboard electric went out decades ago.

Long Beach Ed

New York City. Single families and condos with Chinese air conditioners through the walls.

Mad Dog_2

On Long Island you'll find electric baseboard in Rockville Centre and Freeport because that have their own powerplants, so electricity is cheaper. Mad Dog

hot_rod

I’m going out on a limb and suggesting that they are not behind on production just to piss off customers😚


Traveling with a rep in a new $80,000 Chevy truck recently, 1/2 the high dollar functions didn’t work because control modules are back order months, maybe years!
The trucks ship with enough computer to make them run, they will get back with you for the rest of your truck

Also if you don’t want it, they have a waiting list for many truck models.

yellowdog

@Rusty2 where are you located? FW Webb has these boilers in stock.

BobC

I live just south of Boston in a small six room house that sits 2 blocks from the bay. When that NE wind kicks up I'm glad I have steam heat!

In 2015 I had a 12,000 btu heat pump installed because the big old window rattler was to heavy for me to deal with any more - I gave it to a buddy who needed it. i figured the heat might be useful in the shoulder seasons before i needed real heat and it does a good job on the downstairs on chilly mornings. It just isn't big enough to handle the load when it gets below freezing.

Almost 3 years ago I snagged onto a 3 year contract to buy my electricity for 9.3 cents per KWH (that does not include delivery), that ends late this coming spring and from what i see my cost will then be 18 to 28 cents a KWH not including the 15.3 cent per KWH they get for letting me use their wires. The state rate board (aka the rubber stamp board) falls all over themselves to approve just about anything the utilities want. The net is it's not doing to be as affordable to run the heat pump when my cheap ride ends.

This means the average joe is paying 38 cents per KWH, when I retired it was 10-12 cents per KWH but that was before they split everything up to "save the consumer money". The war in Ukraine is expensive (I'm happy to pay that tariff just to stick it to Putin and his oligarchs) and corporate greed even more so. The heat pump has saved me some gas this fall, gas now costs me $1.05 per therm for the supply and $1.50 for supply for a grand total of about $2.55 per therm. I can well afford this cost but a lot of folks are hard put to eat and stay warm

ChicagoCooperator

There are still major issues with supply - Kohler, as an example, won't give estimated delivery times and even their distributers are cagey about lead times (though sometimes you can get a "yeah, you should get it from somebody else" if you are lucky). It's not clear to me where the issues are, if they are shipping to consumers or shipping of parts for fabrication or the manufacturing itself, but they haven't been resolved yet.

Rusty2

The topic has meandered a bit since my initial post / question. I ordered a Burnham MST 513 in July 2022 and still haven't received it. The ship date has been "postponed" 3 times so far. Crown/Velocity Boiler Works, Burnham/US Boiler have the same story. Do the manufactures know that they are not going to ship them? Do they still even make them? Is there anybody at the factory that knows? I'm hoping we haven't entered the Twilight Zone.

yellowdog

2 people have asked your location and you havent answered yet that i can see. there is stock of this boiler(now only 2) in the northeast at fw webb.

Steamhead

There may indeed be a supply issue here. As of this moment, R.E. Michel has NO MST-513 boilers in stock- anywhere. That NEVER happens............

Rusty2

Hi Yellowdog - We're in South Berwick, ME. I'm unaware that Webb has an MST513 in stock.

Rusty2

Hi Steamhead - When you say "supply issue", I'm wondering supply of what? supply of what part(s)? Can it be possible that US Boiler has not built a single Burnham MST 513 for more than 6 months?

yellowdog

fw webb has 15 in stock as of this morning

pecmsg

Mad Dog_2 said:

On Long Island you'll find electric baseboard in Rockville Centre and Freeport because that have their own powerplants, so electricity is cheaper. Mad Dog

and Greenport.

ChrisMitch

Rusty2 said:

The topic has meandered a bit since my initial post / question. I ordered a Burnham MST 513 in July 2022 and still haven't received it. The ship date has been "postponed" 3 times so far. Crown/Velocity Boiler Works, Burnham/US Boiler have the same story. Do the manufactures know that they are not going to ship them? Do they still even make them? Is there anybody at the factory that knows? I'm hoping we haven't entered the Twilight Zone.

Yes - we know well at the factory. Every day is a production challenge, and our suppliers continue their troubles forecasting...what they will make and when...let alone ship. It is a regular occurrence to call a supplier on the day parts are due to find it we are still months away from shipping.

We feel like we entered the Twilight Zone in 2020.

ChrisJ

ChrisMitch said:

Rusty2 said:

The topic has meandered a bit since my initial post / question. I ordered a Burnham MST 513 in July 2022 and still haven't received it. The ship date has been "postponed" 3 times so far. Crown/Velocity Boiler Works, Burnham/US Boiler have the same story. Do the manufactures know that they are not going to ship them? Do they still even make them? Is there anybody at the factory that knows? I'm hoping we haven't entered the Twilight Zone.

Yes - we know well at the factory. Every day is a production challenge, and our suppliers continue their troubles forecasting...what they will make and when...let alone ship. It is a regular occurrence to call a supplier on the day parts are due to find it we are still months away from shipping.

We feel like we entered the Twilight Zone in 2020.

What company do you work for @ChrisMitch ?

SlamDunk

I just checked on a 15 ton CRAC unit we ordered in August. As of today, +30 weeks lead time. Covid is largely under control. Unemployment rate is at "50 year" lows and I dont see many companies losing money.

How can this be?

Mad Dog_2

Oh Greenport too? Claudio's has low electric bills? Mad Dog

archibald tuttle

@ChrisJ @ChrisMitch chris is my burnham contact. hoping he might have some window on which units or alternatives have most likelihood of repopulating 'shelves'.

But I'm kind of hoping to hear this thread gets solved by distributor arbitrage–as it sounded like there were still a few in the FW Webb system if digital inventory is at all reliable, even if not at your local (portsmouth, NH ?) Webb outlet. They have transferred stuff for me, or get in a pickup and take a ride . . .

@SlamDunk hardware supply chain hasn't recovered as fast as the softward supply chain, so to speak. it was particularly vulnerable to its own efficiencies of worldwide supply and just in time parts streams. think of the last couple years in industry as a slow motion version of the christmas holiday for southwest airlines. now i'm not saying that means what we need is protectionism but I'm kind of hoping that industry is looking at simple designs with less parts and more generics amongst those fewer parts and supplier networks that are less vulnerable whether through vertical integration with supplies, geography, etc. (and low unemployment is meaningless with so many people out of the workforce altogether so not counted. it doesn't mean we're actually getting a lot done relative to our pre-covid productivity.)

brian

archibald tuttle

@Rusty2 I would get over to closest Webb today or call 'em with a credit card. I talked to my contact in Warwick, RI and they have one in stock at his location and normally the company will transfer as long as you can wait on their trucking schedule but your talking days not months. If you have any trouble call me 401-439-7877 and i'll put you in touch with him.

I wouldn't waste time because he says there are only 6 in the whole company. That doesn't square with the inventory @yellowdog saw, but maybe internal inventories he has access to are most accurate, or maybe a lot got bought in a couple days. he didn't go out to the warehouse and actually lay a hand on the thing but he says their inventory on anything of that scale is 100%. If you pay for one I think you should be able to ask for a confirmation that it exists whereever they are going to transfer it from.

BTW, at the location I deal with, they sold 3 last winter, the company altogether sold 108. they had 45 on backorder for months like everyone else. so its not exactly a barn burner, that can explain why it hasn't been a priority for Burnham to get that model built by changing parts or peripherals to go around the supply chain chokepoints.

@ChrisMitch although i'm hoping this solves the immediate problem, is there a hydronic version with similar casting so someone could build up the steam version or are the parts your are short common to hydronic versions?

brian

SlamDunk

I have a more nefarious explanation.   And, you can see it with airlines.     Market prices are determined by the supply-demand curves.  Ween the supply, and demand continues to grow, which raises the price of that airplane seat or boiler.   You can protect your bottom line with less head count, less throughput and higher prices.   I think that is one lesson learned from covid.    I accept that parts and raw materials coming from China are jeapardized and will be for a long time.   But, I dont see a lot of companies filing for bankruptcy, or even laying off for that matter,  because they cant sell whatever they manufacture.  They just charge a lot more for what they do sell.   

ChrisMitch

ChrisJ said:

ChrisMitch said:

Rusty2 said:

The topic has meandered a bit since my initial post / question. I ordered a Burnham MST 513 in July 2022 and still haven't received it. The ship date has been "postponed" 3 times so far. Crown/Velocity Boiler Works, Burnham/US Boiler have the same story. Do the manufactures know that they are not going to ship them? Do they still even make them? Is there anybody at the factory that knows? I'm hoping we haven't entered the Twilight Zone.

Yes - we know well at the factory. Every day is a production challenge, and our suppliers continue their troubles forecasting...what they will make and when...let alone ship. It is a regular occurrence to call a supplier on the day parts are due to find it we are still months away from shipping.

We feel like we entered the Twilight Zone in 2020.

What company do you work for @ChrisMitch ?

HSSC which is the sales arm for US Boiler, New Yorker, Governale & Burnham Commercial Cast Iron.

ChrisMitch

archibald tuttle said:

@Rusty2

@ChrisMitch although i'm hoping this solves the immediate problem, is there a hydronic version with similar casting so someone could build up the steam version or are the parts your are short common to hydronic versions?

brian

Both water and steam boilers were/are short parts needed for production. Couple the parts shortages with the order demand/backlog = slow release of our boilers into the marketplace and long lead times.

Rusty2

Hi ChrisMitch - I've read through the parts list for a Burnham MST 513 (oil fired) several times. Which parts for that boiler are in short supply?