Help with heat loss and finishing existing design details_1

Mike Krall

Supply House (and others) have 'Full Slip Adapters'. They look like the shortest way to move from a 663 FNPT manifold shut-off end to a 90 deg. elbow. How are they put in?

https://supplyhouse.com/Brass-Male-Slip-Adapters-24120000

Mike

hot_rod

This would be the shortest turn

Mike Krall

hot_rod said:

This would be the shortest turn

Thank you...

Mike

psb75

My opinion of the original poster's supplied working design is that it is a supply house salesman's "fever dream."
Hot Rod and TAG are doing yeomen's work of supplying conservative suggestions. To the OP: heed their suggestions and save some "coin" and enjoy the system's superior performance.

Mike Krall

psb75 said:

My opinion of the original poster's supplied working design is that it is a supply house salesman's "fever dream."
Hot Rod and TAG are doing yeomen's work of supplying conservative suggestions. To the OP: heed their suggestions and save some "coin" and enjoy the system's superior performance.

'psb75',

I came here hoping to get the kind of help you mentioned... stayed with the thread because I am.

Your feeling of how the design I've shown was done isn't right. There is over 35 years of PE, CEM, Leeds AP in the design. I would be happy getting the help I'm getting here from the designer if I could.

Mike

Mike Krall

I got stuck in a cabinet ordering mess. And now I'm going to be gone the rest of the week.

I'm still trying to figure out how to set up a fill and make-up water system.

From 'Hot Rod's post here:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1710910/#Comment_1710910 and the screenshot of the expansion tank make-up water feed. I've been wondering if setting up a filter (NA573 w/o the PRV and BFP) separately instead of piped in would work... Use it to make the approx. 27.5 gal. system water. Have hose fitting on it and hook it between main water feed and make-up water pressure tank to refill it (if/when needed) could be done. Don't know if it makes sense either... given I don't understand how the pressure tank make-up system shown is refilled. And I don't know if a filter with hose bibs in and out could be valved off, capped off and leaned into an empty corner until "next time" without some unintended consequences.

Would you say what you think about this, please?

Mike

Edit: Forgot... Was wondering if a 15# expansion tank is enough and if an Axiom tank arm for it would help in any of this set up

hot_rod

Why not leave the filter, backflow and Autofill all piped in? Why would you want the filter removed? If the boiler ever needed as bit more water, after venting some air, the water to fill back to pressure needs to run through that filter.

The filter could be on either side of the pressure reducing, autofill valve.

If you but the Autofill combo, it looks like this. The filter upstream would keep any debris out of the backflow and fill valve.

Mike Krall

hot_rod said:

Why not leave the filter, backflow and Autofill all piped in? Why would you want the filter removed? If the boiler ever needed as bit more water, after venting some air, the water to fill back to pressure needs to run through that filter.

The filter could be on either side of the pressure reducing, autofill valve.

If you but the Autofill combo, it looks like this. The filter upstream would keep any debris out of the backflow and fill valve.

What you said is the way I understood it from Caleffi Idronics.

I was wondering if your view from the linked post... using a separate make-up water expansion tank to fill as needed with no direct hookup to potable water (no backflow preventer needed)... was a better idea.

https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/ro/g3jg72pvusfh.png

What occurred to me looking at the screenshot was the filter didn't need to be in the system at all. A person makes DI water, fills the system and the feed expansion tank with the made water, then stores the filter to use if more DI water for the feed tank is needed.

Mike

hot_rod

Just a few wash machine hoses and adapters, a 5 gallon bucket to catch the purge water that you filtered.
But then you would need a small pump to put that DI you purged into the bucket back into the system. No sense in running DI water down the drain as you purge.

Here is a setup, the 18V Milwaukee pump is handy for many things, a bit $$

The Webstone is a two direction valve. So pressurize the tank when you are done filling, connect it to the system, hard pipe or a washer hose, then turn the valve to allow flow from the tank to the system.

Use a #30 for your fill tank, gets you 4 or so gallons

Mike Krall

hot_rod said:

Just a few wash machine hoses and adapters, a 5 gallon bucket to catch the purge water that you filtered.
But then you would need a small pump to put that DI you purged into the bucket back into the system. No sense in running DI water down the drain as you purge.

Here is a setup, the 18V Milwaukee pump is handy for many things, a bit $$

The Webstone is a two direction valve. So pressurize the tank when you are done filling, connect it to the system, hard pipe or a washer hose, then turn the valve to allow flow from the tank to the system.

Use a #30 for your fill tank, gets you 4 or so gallons

Starting with my posts two back from this, I made a mess of describing and question asking... too big a hurry... too much assumption... too much of who knows what else. I wish I hadn't and I apologize.
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I'm lost, 'Hot Rod'. What I think I get is the screen shot (https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/bb/rijbk0ckbl7r.png) is the parts and pieces and tools needed.

I know better than to start guessing about the set up and process, and I'm afraid if I start asking random questions it will make a mess of the whole thing.

Would you go through this again, please?

Besides the screenshot linked above, I'm referencing these two:
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/ro/g3jg72pvusfh.png
https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/01268_21_na.pdf
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The two things I'm clear on are... "Use a #30 for your fill tank"... and "18V Milwaukee transfer pump is a bit $$"...

Mike

hot_rod

I think the fill tank and pump option is going to be too confusing, skip that idea and just go with this, house water on one side, connect into the system at the expansion tank.

ronbugg

One size circulators is not the answer. You size them for the load (gpm and ft of head) This gives you the btuhs  needed Circulators last 15-20 years so spare parts is not a problem.

Mike Krall

hot_rod said:

I think the fill tank and pump option is going to be too confusing, skip that idea and just go with this, house water on one side, connect into the system at the expansion tank.

Did you say this because you feel the NA573 is a better way to do this type of system? If not, I can say, if you (or somebody) has the patience to line out the 'expansion tank as make-up feed' set up simply and more fully, I can get it done and deal with it.

Mike

Mike Krall

ronbugg said:

One size circulators is not the answer. You size them for the load (gpm and ft of head) This gives you the btuhs  needed Circulators last 15-20 years so spare parts is not a problem.

'ronbugg'...

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you said. If you want to, run it by me again and I'll see if I can get it then.

Mike

Mike Krall

I still have to talk more with the copper tube manifold people I got referenced to by Alberta Tee. 'What manifolds?', seems like the last of the main pieces, though I do think there are other things I don't know of yet.
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I'm thinking someone needs to try to figure out how this wall goes together. I appear to be the only one in the room. I have no delusions I'm going to instantly "get" this... feel like I only have some basic principles to work with. When I get some drawings done, I'll put them up here... will maybe have to ask some questions on the way. I am going to do a dimensioned wall elevation drawing first... should have done that a long time ago.

If any one has some advice on what to start with and/or how to logically proceed from piece to piece, I'd be happy to hear it.

Boiler Rm. and Utilidors: https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/r3/vds4q6bfatlc.png

Mike

hot_rod

Start somewhere.
Make a manifold decision, buy, install and connect the tube to them. Pressure test that assembly. Run tube from the manifolds to mechanical room.

Decide on a boiler, mount it to the wall where you want it.

If you are using a separator, buy and mount it

Then connect the all three components.

If you are going with my suggestion of 3 way zone valves, I've attached a few schematics over these posts.

Looks like you have plenty of wall space, I'd avoid behind the door swing?

I doubt that you made a drawing to a 1/4" scale that the components end up there

Mike Krall

I don't know how I missed this, 'Hot Rod'...

hot_rod said:

Start somewhere.

Your 'start somewhere' and my 'start somewhere' are happening in really different worlds...
I understand what you said here. I don't disagree... and I'm really happy to have the view, thank you.

To say, I'm not going to be building this... the plumbers are. Maybe I'm able to do a little here and there... mostly not.

I'm going to have to show the plumbers a piece of paper that says "Like this". Sure, not down to the 1/16"... or anything like that... but I promise you, there is no other way than to have a pretty tight plan... it will help me and it will help them.

hot_rod said:

Make a manifold decision, buy, install and connect the tube to them. Pressure test that assembly. Run tube from the manifolds to mechanical room.

Decide on a boiler, mount it to the wall where you want it.

If you are using a separator, buy and mount it

Then connect the all three components.

If you are going with my suggestion of 3 way zone valves, I've attached a few schematics over these posts.

_ Lochinvar Knight WHB085... (the air/flue are in so, +/-, that's where it goes.)
_ Viessmann 120/80 LLH... sitting and waiting
_ Yes on 3-ways and I've got the posts w/ schematics

hot_rod said:

Looks like you have plenty of wall space, I'd avoid behind the door swing?

I doubt that you made a drawing to a 1/4" scale that the components end up there

OK... I'll build a little shelf space behind the door instead. Put all the boiler room part documents (with settings and why), plus copied posts and pictures from this thread in a folder there. Make a little sign for it... "Dedicated to the Betterment of Boiler-room-kind"... "The Wall"

Oh, and I promise to NOT take my 1/4 & 1/16 inches seriously.

Mike

Mike Krall

So, here is the reason I showed up here tonight when I found the post two up...

I've done a few rough 'wall sketches'... real basic stuff. Remembered seeing in Lochinvar I&O things about clearances. Found screenshot.

I thought I had seen boiler room pictures with Lochinvar wall-mounts closer to a ceiling than the 24" mentioned. Is the Lochinvar statement: "... may not be possible to service the boiler without removing it from the space." without having those clearances irrevocable, in your experience?

Mike

hot_rod

I think it is mainly so you can physically get over the top to work on it. The cleanout procedure happens from the top on fire tube boilers.
How close are you thinking?

Mike Krall

hot_rod said:

I think it is mainly so you can physically get over the top to work on it. The cleanout procedure happens from the top on fire tube boilers.
How close are you thinking?

I was thinking maybe you could tell me how close to think... Me saying "How close can I go without being stupid here?" would have been a better post question. And thanks for the explanation of what the clearance is specifically for. If I work at it, I can get "how close" figured out from that.
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And I'm not getting notified of new posts here. I'll see if that is fixable.

Mike

Erin Holohan Haskell

@Mike Krall click on the bookmark next to the post title. You can also edit your notification preferences on your profile page. More here: https://heatinghelp.com/forum-user-manual

Mike Krall

Erin Holohan Haskell said:

@Mike Krall click on the bookmark next to the post title. You can also edit your notification preferences on your profile page. More here: https://heatinghelp.com/forum-user-manual

Thank you, Erin...

I should have said... the notifications I was consistently getting, stopped. I've clicked the bookmark, but in late afternoon I had gone to 'Notification Preferences'. It was set the same as originally done... 'all' and by e-mail. I unchecked all and saved... logged out... closed window. Then brought up home page... logged in... reset to 'all' via e-mail and saved... closed window... brought up home page again so I could check for new posts and cross reference to open e-mail account hoping for "fixed"... we'll see.

I don't know when you posted, but I did the above right after my last post.

Mike

Erin Holohan Haskell

Thanks, @Mike Krall. I'll PM you.

Mike Krall

hot_rod said:

Start somewhere.
Make a manifold decision...

The partial quote is from a few posts up-page https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1718789/#Comment_1718789

I've been trying to understand better about which manifolds. Found Alberta Custom Tee manifolds (1" 4-loop C x FTG w/ mini ball valves) at Willow Springs (main American distributor). That 'solves' the problem of not needing air vent, drain/purge valve, thermometer, main shut off, and also, the 'tight-ish' 20" max opening for south-1/2 open room zone. Probably I can get a Caleffi 553 in the 20" space with the short-turn 90 deg. you showed me. The other manifold location is wider and the supply/return utilidors are further from the manifold location (centered in closet end-wall opening).

So, I've been searching/reading about views/uses of copper manifolds and 'everything' manifolds. Then the same again on equal and unequal length loops. Push comes to shove, I'm just going in circles. I'm pretty sure it's a lack of understanding of how, what, and why all the differences I've run into actually fit into a lot of variations of a whole system of... 'It works and works well'. I don't know enough to know anything.

Then first thing this morning I ran into this:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1220646/#Comment_1220646

I had only thought about equal length loops as what I was told over 20 years ago... that a person avoided having to balance manifolds if loops were equal. The North-1/2 zone seems an example of differing square footage with varied heatloss. Yes, +/- 5' at 208.75' average, but the variation is areas of 19. 9...22.3...22.4...27.2 Btu/hr/sq.ft. (the 27.2 area is 25.5 % of north-zone total sq.ft.) The Wirsbo heatloss screenshots are here... #'s 5, 6, 7: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1709343/#Comment_1709343

I've mentioned before, the house equalizes well. Yesterday I took floor and head level temps with a quick-read, +/- 1 degree, thermometer. The house is buttoned up... no heat other than the sun coming in... 20 F outside... head level 51 F in center-north and 53 F in center-south. Floor level at north wall...east to west... was 46... 47.5...47 (near door)...48. And 48 thru 49 at floor level along north wall of south-1/2 zone. I could feel the air moving north to south at floor level with a wetted finger.

I look at this and think 'everything is going to be fine', but then, 'how would I know'. So, if a person tries to ignore the reality everyone has differing tolerances to everything... take that out of the equation... does the north zone look like balancing might be a thing needing done?

Mike

hot_rod

So the question is??
A decision between manifolds with or without valves? Or valves and not flow indicators?

If you have a design that indicates flow for every loop in gpm, and you want to follow that design, then you need a manifold with flow indicators

If you want to balance just by feel and comfort levels, then mini ball valve manifolds are fine.

The only time I used manifolds without any valves was a snowmelt, all equal length loops, looking for max. flow.

Mike Krall

hot_rod said:

So the question is??
A decision between manifolds with or without valves? Or valves and not flow indicators?

A question about copper with mini ball valves (essentially not flow control) or needing manifolds with flow control... whether having flow indicators or not (Caleffi 668S1 or 663).
And (now that you mention...) a question on flow control w/ and w/o flow indicators.

hot_rod said:

If you have a design that indicates flow for every loop in gpm, and you want to follow that design, then you need a manifold with flow indicators.

If I understand, the original Wirsbo design for the N-1/2 had loops like that... specs showed numbers of turns on a loop flow adjuster to get different temps in different length loops... now all equal loops so is equal gpm flow. There IS different heatloss in the different areas of equal loop lengths, though. Will that reality, in and of itself, point to a need to balance?

hot_rod said:

If you want to balance just by feel and comfort levels, then mini ball valve manifolds are fine.

The only time I used manifolds without any valves was a snowmelt, all equal length loops, looking for max. flow.

OK... the first of these last two causes me to think a person will likely need to balance, at least a little... am I missing anything?

And from the second... I would have mini ball valves in any case on a copper manifold for the ability to shut off a loop... even as whole manifold ball valves, air vents, drain/purge valves aren't needed here (as you pointed out earlier). Am I clear?

Mike

hot_rod

You balance if loops in zones or rooms are more then 10% different in length.
Balance can also be helpful to adjust zones or loops against one another.

I liken it to the old car radios, where now and then you had to turn the station knob to bring the signal in clearly. I suspect many balance valves are installed full open and never touched.

It is realty more for a homeowner to obsess over

Mike Krall

hot_rod said:

You balance if loops in zones or rooms are more then 10% different in length.
Balance can also be helpful to adjust zones or loops against one another.

Thanks for this, 'Hot Rod'... that helps.

hot_rod said:

I liken it to the old car radios, where now and then you had to turn the station knob to bring the signal in clearly. I suspect many balance valves are installed full open and never touched.

Upstate New York... hills and gullies everywhere... 1956 Ford station wagon and teenagers 'riding' around... shotgun w/ their hand on the dial.

hot_rod said:

It is really more for a homeowner to obsess over

I'm hoping I'm not going to obsess this. I am getting to where I feel like I can think about the different aspects of this and not be totally off in La-la land.

Mike

Mike Krall

There are some screenshots here... Ut.Rm plan (again), "Wall" elevation w/ basics, manifold location plan w/ dimensions. There is no way to make the manifold locations different than they are now... no way to rearrange supply and return utilidors either.

It looks to me like a copper tube with ball valves is going to fit (10 3/4" bare, + for fittings... not air or drain) and that Caleffi 663 is not (17 1/8" + fitting to 'S'/'R').

My 'view' in this stuff is limited. How do you see this?

Mike

hot_rod

You can always splice onto the tubes and extend them to a place where you have more space.
I've mounted manifolds 4' above the floor to arrange a large gob of tube into the manifolds.

I had some tight spacing 1-1/2" on center manifolds built by Watts years ago. I think 2" OC is standard?
Maybe Alberta T or Sioux Chief still do custom manifolds. I built a few by hand with a tee puller, but they never look as nice as the factory builds.

Can't swing the door to the left away from the boiler? Or swing it out instead of in?

Mike Krall

hot_rod said:

You can always splice onto the tubes and extend them to a place where you have more space.
I've mounted manifolds 4' above the floor to arrange a large gob of tube into the manifolds.

I had some tight spacing 1-1/2" on center manifolds built by Watts years ago. I think 2" OC is standard?
Maybe Alberta T or Sioux Chief still do custom manifolds. I built a few by hand with a tee puller, but they never look as nice as the factory builds.

Can't swing the door to the left away from the boiler? Or swing it out instead of in?

I lead you down the wrong road. I'm sorry... should only have put the manifold screenshot in, or been a clearer with the words.

The areas for the remote manifolds are small-ish and cannot be changed.

Quote from my last:
"It looks to me like a copper tube with ball valves is going to fit (10 3/4" bare, + for fittings... not air or drain) and that Caleffi 663 is not (17 1/8" + fitting to 'S'/'R').

My 'view' in this stuff is limited. How do you see this?"

The manifolds Alberta Tee pointed me to are 2" center.

Mike

hot_rod

2 or 3" spacing is what you find, unless it is a custom build. Sounds like 2" spacing fits?

Mike Krall

Yes, 4-loop, 2" centers, copper tube manifolds fit (10 3/4", w/o fittings, in 20" and 24"+). From the screenshot, a person can see the loops don't match the tubes 2" spacing. I'm hoping there is enough head room in the manifold area (38 1/2" from concrete to top of enclosure) to gather up the loops (somehow) so they don't put constant pressure on the compression connectors.

Was also thinking the short manifold enclosure (20") with utilidors in wrong position might be done with bent soft copper... direct sweat to manifold... sweat C x PEX fitting... crimp PEX. That could be done at other manifold (with less than ideal utilidor placement, also).

That second manifold (24"+) has a supply utilidor that would maybe take a PEX radius bend... would use a bend brace. Return utidor won't allow that... maybe a long elbow to 45 deg. for connection (like manifold to street 45... to street 90... to C x PEX. Will need to collect and stabilize loops here, too... or so it seems.

Mike

Mike Krall

I'm wondering a thing I figure someone here will know. Lochinvar Knight wall boilers have supply and return, outlet/inlet, at both top and bottom. Can a person use one of each... like supply out the top and return out the bottom?

Mike

hot_rod

I think so, they just tee together inside the jacket anyway.

I did modify mine to come out the side at the dimension of the Sep 4. The tube they use is not 1-1/8" copper, fittings are real sloppy on it. So I went back to the HX to rebuild it.

I have side for the heating, bottom connections for the DHW flat plat HX

Mike Krall

hot_rod said:

I think so, they just tee together inside the jacket anyway.

I meant to put up a screenshot of the Lochinvar brochure showing that. It's what caused me to ask the question.

hot_rod said:

I did modify mine to come out the side at the dimension of the Sep 4. The tube they use is not 1-1/8" copper, fittings are real sloppy on it. So I went back to the HX to rebuild it.

And that would have negated the warranty, I suppose?

Coming out of the side like that is an interesting idea... could be I could use it. Normal NPT union fits, or ??? What type copper? Tee's or Tee-drill or ???

hot_rod said:

I have side for the heating, bottom connections for the DHW flat plat HX

What is the gismo on the heating boiler supply, 'Hot-Rod'?
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And did you lower the boiler control panel, or is there a piece of trim missing above it, or ???

Mike

hot_rod

Yeah, I would not suggest modifying the piping inside.

I sent this suggestion to Lochinvar as one of their competitors has side piping with a hydraulic sep attached from the factory. It has dropped their mis-piped tech calls, boiler lock out, etc considerably. You get proper hydraulic piping plus excellent air and dirt removal right out of the box. Makes it hard to screw up an installation😚

All the air problems that come across HH get resolved when a sep is included and piped for you.

I used some Pyrex glass piping for my near boiler piping to demonstrate air and dirt removal devices. It is as much a test bench as a heating system

Main cover is off to do some checking inside.

Mike Krall

hot_rod said:

Yeah, I would not suggest modifying the piping inside.

Well, I was only partly serious. I don't know if taking supply off the top will work for sure, but it seems like it may. It would be nice to run straight into the LLH, though.
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The mounting board: Is there a piece of plywood behind the peg board?
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The bent tubing here: https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/ie/n58kq2itog1e.png The radii seem too soft to be done with a bender. Do you do them by hand? Filled with sand (or ???) ?

Mike

hot_rod

Polyurethane coated peg board over 3/4” plywood. Just a different look. On the other wall I used some HDPE pegboard from McNichols.
I use a Rems Curvo power bender. It bends regular hard drawn tube, type L or K. Mine will do up to 1-1/4 copper. Steel pipe and tube also. Some owners bend their gas line pipe.
No pressure drop penalty when you bend tube at 6D radius, and less joints.

Mike Krall

hot_rod said:

Polyurethane coated peg board over 3/4” plywood. Just a different look. On the other wall I used some HDPE pegboard from McNichols.
I use a Rems Curvo power bender. It bends regular hard drawn tube, type L or K. Mine will do up to 1-1/4 copper. Steel pipe and tube also. Some owners bend their gas line pipe.
No pressure drop penalty when you bend tube at 6D radius, and less joints.

Thanks for all of that, 'Hot-Rod'. I need to see what 'the plumbers' and others have for benders... hopefully something.

Mike