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Help with heat loss and finishing existing design details_1

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  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    Are you looking to start from scratch with a new design? Those pump specs seem a little off, low gpm 3-4, but kind of high head?? Are the pex loops in place already?

    I suspect the detail that I asked about early non has something to do with it. The balance valve used as part of the constant circ has a bit of pressure drop associated with it, a parasitic device, perhaps driving up that head? Hard to know what them original designer calculated at this point.

    I think I mentioned this super simple, virtually no pressure drop method to get constant circ without a balance valve and need to get it set properly. Plus the cost difference.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,069
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    I might have missed something here, why do you have zone pumps and zone valves? where did all that pressure drop calculation come from? 16' head seems a bit much, long loops? I would size for a single system circulator with zone valves (add flow rates, your head calc would be the larger value they are not additive) grab a 2-3 zone
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    GGross said:

    I might have missed something here, why do you have zone pumps and zone valves? where did all that pressure drop calculation come from? 16' head seems a bit much, long loops? I would size for a single system circulator with zone valves (add flow rates, your head calc would be the larger value they are not additive) grab a 2-3 zone

    The zone valve closes, flow crosses that balance valve bypass, to supply constant circulation when there is no heat call.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    GGross
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
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    hot_rod said:

    GGross said:

    I might have missed something here, why do you have zone pumps and zone valves? where did all that pressure drop calculation come from? 16' head seems a bit much, long loops? I would size for a single system circulator with zone valves (add flow rates, your head calc would be the larger value they are not additive) grab a 2-3 zone

    The zone valve closes, flow crosses that balance valve bypass, to supply constant circulation when there is no heat call.
    questions: If you are using ODR with constant circulation when would you ever have have a situation where the pump would deadhead ? I always set mine so the curve is taking care of the area needing the hottest water .. the thermostats are just to modulate those areas where you want a lower temp or the water temp will over heat that area. The one area on the curve is never off. Now if you need two temps ... that's sort of the same thing -- I have only used panel radiators w/ bypass so there is constant circulation as well.

    You know way more about this than I do ....

    Also: Does not the Alpha know to shut off ? Some smart pump knows to stop.

    I never understood buying and setting up a boiler w/ ODR and then have it somehow go on and off with a thermostat .... seems like defeating the reason for the control. You naturally need hotter water to recover?

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    The zone valve and bypass pipe with the balance valve IS the constant circulation detail.
    Regardless of what the ODR is doing there is flow in the circuit, until something tells that circulator to stop running. So either flow from the boiler, or just around the loop with the zone valve closed. The zone valve is not stopping flow, merely diverting it.  Unusual, but certainly workable.
    My point is the balance valve, depending on how much it needs to be chocked off, is adding unnecessary head to the circuit, at least from where I sit.  When the zone valves opens to allow heat from the boiler, the pressure drop of that circuit changes, I suspect, since there is no longer flow across the bypass and BV?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
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    TAG said:

    How many part do you currently have for this system ?

    Why not get a boiler like the Viessmann w/ ODR and ditch all those controls?

    You don't need all those pump controls.

    You don't need pumps and zone valves together.

    you don't need all those air separators.

    you don't need two pressure tanks

    'TAG'... I've read all of this post and made sure I understood as well as I can. I didn't want to quote it all...

    There are some of your questions I can't answer well... some of them maybe yes, but only maybe. I will tell you what I think, though.

    Besides the difference in heat gain in two house halves, there is an elevation change. The original piping design has two remote manifold locations one for each heat loss/elevation area. There is no changing that

    Nothing has been bought.

    The nearest Viessmann distributor is 360 miles, one way. There is no one in the entire state of Wyoming, as well as quite a few of the surrounding states, who installs Viessmann. It is simply not an option.

    The system will run ODR as a data point... not as the control.

    There are no pump controls, as I understand it. They are the simple way of creating constant circulation... plug them in, they run constantly... unplug at WWSD. With constant circulation, there needs to be a way to let Btu's into the emitter (secondary)... zone valves of one type or another... or possibly other "door types" for heat entry.

    There is (what I believe is) one automatic air separator at the top of the LLH. The designer said to put manual air valves on all high points. The design drawing is showing those at the assumed high points. Reality may be there are fewer high points. There will be drain/purge valves at all low points, also.

    The two pressure tanks have a combined capacity close to that needed. Using one pressure tank of a size large enough would be more capacity than needed.

    'TAG', I can say, if I was starting all of this now, I would likely have a system some different than this. It would still have to be constant circulation (or a very close mimic). I think FHV's would be a better control, but I don't know that as other than a guess.

    Mike




  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
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    hot_rod said:

    Are you looking to start from scratch with a new design? Those pump specs seem a little off, low gpm 3-4, but kind of high head?? Are the pex loops in place already?

    I suspect the detail that I asked about early on has something to do with it. The balance valve used as part of the constant circ has a bit of pressure drop associated with it, a parasitic device, perhaps driving up that head? Hard to know what the original designer calculated at this point.

    I think I mentioned this super simple, virtually no pressure drop method to get constant circ without a balance valve and need to get it set properly. Plus the cost difference.

    I am not looking to start from scratch. I WOULD start from scratch IF there was rational. That is not a thing I can supply. The PEX has been in place for a very long time. I'll get you as accurate a loop list as I can tomorrow.
    Equalizing the north half had complexity and we didn't document it well... could be +/- 10 feet off from reality... maybe more.
    --------------------------------------------
    You did mention the 3-way zone valve solution... put up the same screen shots then as now. At the earlier posting, I went out and looked at valve Cv. Why? I have NO idea... simply guessing it might be a thing having an influence. Meant to ask at the time if your 3-way would be 3/4" as the 2-way is on the design.

    Also looked at (same supplier site) cost of Taco 2-way w/ Macon 3/4" STVL, and Taco 3-way... close to equal.

    Macon 3/4" STVL... 5.92 Cv fully open... see page 7: https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Macon%20Balancing%20Brochure1.pdf
    -------------------------------------------
    Yup... no knowing what the designer saw.

    I mentioned previously my asking how to set the Macon 3/4" STVL. Normally would be set with a readout tool. Designer said the setting was a small turn down from full open done while under heating load. That the correct amount would be when the thermostat down stream of the circ. pump read the same as the supply temp. thermostat downstream of the LLH.
    --------------------------------------------
    So, here is a question, 'Hot Rod'... Were there good, dependable, Taco 3-way zone valves 10 years ago? Same dependability as Taco 2-way at the time? Same ease of replacement top if/when it fails? Same Cv's then as now? Same relative cost to the spec'ed. pieces then?

    And... I understand I don't understand... But... what seems "normal" for this system under ODR is zone valves open most of heating system. One of them, at least. The other (whichever zone required less heat) would cycle. I can post the zone heat loss numbers if you want them. Without looking (it's late), the south half, though larger sq.ft., has lower heat loss, and it has higher internal gain. I'll look at that tomorrow just to see if I'm remembering correctly, in any event.

    Just reread that last paragraph... it's full of holes. Along with understanding I don't understand, I also don't know what I don't know... =]

    Mike



  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
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    I have used Viessmann on the last couple of projects in PA for a couple of reason. I'm forced to use Propane and by all accounts the Viessmann boilers work well with that sometimes dirty and inconsistent fuel. Self adjusting and simple hook up. You need to go with what you can get and service. I mentioned the Viessmann manuals only because they are very easy to understand and show how simple things can run with the correct boiler.

    Your layout is only showing two 4 loop manifolds --- What am I missing? I can't make any determination regarding if you have enough PEX to deliver what you need to heat the spaces ... or if the loops are of the proper length. Typically 300' if 1/2 -- I like to go a bit shorter.

    As far as the two different spaces needing different output -- this again you need to determine what you need and see how different the temp water to the two areas .... if it is close you can use one temp.

    When I need two different temps I use a boiler with that ability -- Two ODR curves. The boiler in my picture can do that. The higher heat loss area needing the hotter water is on ODR1 and then the second ODR2 curve uses a mixing valve and temp sensor to provide the lower temp water (need another pump)

    There are a few things that make it easier setting these systems up -- If you see in my picture to the right of the LLH is the fill valve as well as bladder tank and Spirovent. This allows for servicing as well as initially flushing. You power flush each zone and manifold on startup and the Spirovent finishes the job. No need for all those other vents. Proper isolation valves for the pumps in case of replacement and other servicing.

    The LLH sensor/ outside sensor/ DHW tank sensor/ Pumps -- all connect to the boiler.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    hot_rod said:

    Are you looking to start from scratch with a new design? Those pump specs seem a little off, low gpm 3-4, but kind of high head?? Are the pex loops in place already?

    I suspect the detail that I asked about early on has something to do with it. The balance valve used as part of the constant circ has a bit of pressure drop associated with it, a parasitic device, perhaps driving up that head? Hard to know what the original designer calculated at this point.

    I think I mentioned this super simple, virtually no pressure drop method to get constant circ without a balance valve and need to get it set properly. Plus the cost difference.

    I am not looking to start from scratch. I WOULD start from scratch IF there was rational. That is not a thing I can supply. The PEX has been in place for a very long time. I'll get you as accurate a loop list as I can tomorrow.
    Equalizing the north half had complexity and we didn't document it well... could be +/- 10 feet... maybe more.
    --------------------------------------------
    You did mention the 3-way zone valve solution... put up the same screen shots then as now. At the earlier posting, I went out and looked at valve Cv. Why? I have NO idea... simply guessing it might be a thing having an influence. Meant to ask at the time if your 3-way would be 3/4" as the 2-way is on the design.

    Also looked at (same supplier site) cost of Taco 2-way w/ Macon 3/4" STVL, and Taco 3-way... close to equal.

    Macon 3/4" STVL... 5.92 Cv fully open... see page 7: https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Macon%20Balancing%20Brochure1.pdf
    -------------------------------------------
    Yup... no knowing what the designer saw.

    I mentioned previously my asking how to set the Macon 3/4" STVL. Normally would be set with a readout tool. Designer said the setting was a small turn down from full open done while under heating load. That the correct amount would be when the thermostat down stream of the circ. pump read the same as the supply temp. thermostat downstream of the LLH.
    --------------------------------------------
    So, here is a question, 'Hot Rod'... Were there good, dependable, Taco 3-way zone valves 10 years ago? Same dependability as Taco 2-way at the time? Same ease of replacement top if/when it fails? Same Cv's then as now? Same relative cost to the spec'ed. pieces then?

    And... I understand I don't understand... But... what seems "normal" for this system under ODR is zone valves open most of heating system. One of them, at least. The other (whichever zone required less heat) would cycle. I can post the zone heat loss numbers if you want them. Without looking (it's late), the south half, though larger sq.ft., has lower heat loss, and it has higher internal gain. I'll look at that tomorrow just to see if I'm remembering correctly, in any event.

    Just reread that last paragraph... it's full of holes. Along with understanding I don't understand, I also don't know what I don't know... =]

    Mike



    Of course I would steer you to Caleffi components :)

    By my calculations looking at SupplyHouse, a 3 way zone valve comes in about 60 bucks cheaper than a 2 way valve plus a balance valve. Depending on what brand and model zone valve you are looking at.
    Less labor also as the balance valves are threaded and need to have adapters added for copper sweat, eliminate two tees also, using a 3 way zone valve.

    Yes, I just plug in my zone pump in the fall, unplug in the spring. I suppose it could be wired to a central thermostat or tie in with ODR in case you get a snow storm mid June That actually happened when I lived at Targhee ski resort in Alta, Wyoming. No harm in running it all year other than electrical cost.

    With the 3 way zone valve piping, anytime a thermostat calls it opens the zone valve to the boiler supply, from the low loss header. The pump is always moving flow either just from the manifold and back to the manifold and loops, or from the LLH to the manifolds. Really no need for a balance valve with the 3 way. Balance the loops against one another at the manifold. Eliminating the balance valve should drop the head requirement for the pumps bring them down to speed 2 on the Alpha, I'll bet. The more you would choke that balance valve, the more head you add and lowering the gpm.

    Constant circulation provides the most comfortable, consistent floor temperature. If any rooms gets solar gain, that gets moved around also if the flow is always moving. So some passive solar gain gets added to the floors.

    If the temperature requirements for the 2 zones are within 10- 12° of one another no need to have a two temperature system, let everything run off the ODR temperature.

    Super simple plumbing and wiring with a 3 way zone valve. Use a 3 connection ZV relay box to give you a spare.

    The indirect should control directly from the boiler, both the sensor and 120V for its pump.

    If you want to go with a 3 port zone valve, 3/4 sweat at SupplyHouse

    SKU Z-307537 is the brass body
    SKU Z 151000 is a 24V actuator with switch and terminal block
    ZVR 103 is a 3 zone valve relay box to wire zone valves to thermoststs
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
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    Of course I would steer you to Caleffi components :)


    Question: Why not just have the higher heat load area on ODR so it can circulate all the time and control the lower with a simple zone valve. One pump -- on when the boiler is turned on for the season. The alpha will know to ramp up and down

    I have never used those 3 way zones .... interesting
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
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    hot_rod said:

    Of course I would steer you to Caleffi components :)

    I know... and on a yap with plumber today, they have switched mostly to Caleffi... have suppliers they like, too.
    hot_rod said:

    With the 3 way zone valve piping, anytime a thermostat calls it opens the zone valve to the boiler supply, from the low loss header. The pump is always moving flow either just from the manifold and back to the manifold and loops, or from the LLH to the manifolds. Really no need for a balance valve with the 3 way. Balance the loops against one another at the manifold. Eliminating the balance valve should drop the head requirement for the pumps bring them down to speed 2 on the Alpha, I'll bet. The more you would choke that balance valve, the more head you add and lowering the gpm.

    I think I understand how the 3-way works. I don't know how much of the "lower GPM with higher head" you saw in the numbers I put up has to do with the Macon 3/4" STVL valve. I've attached the WIRSBO heat-loss below. A thing that finally dawned on me was WIRSBO was specing their gear and their view had each loop flow adjusted do to different lengths. I don't know if that would account for anything "odd-ish", or not.
    hot_rod said:

    Constant circulation provides the most comfortable, consistent floor temperature. If any rooms gets solar gain, that gets moved around also if the flow is always moving. So some passive solar gain gets added to the floors.

    If the temperature requirements for the 2 zones are within 10- 12° of one another no need to have a two temperature system, let everything run off the ODR temperature.

    With the loop length equalizing we did at installation, the south 1/2 is +/- 2.5 ft. and all were at 87.7 F water before adjustment. The north 1/2 had a 286 ft. loop (higher temp at 91 F) but it is 240 ft. now. The two north 1/2 loops (shorter and spec-ed for 85 F water) are both longer now. The upshot is, The averaged, north 1/2, 4-loop water temp. before adjustment was 87.3 F. The designer figured one water temp was both easy to justify, and the better solution.

    Off Topic: :)
    hot_rod said:

    Yes, I just plug in my zone pump in the fall, unplug in the spring. I suppose it could be wired to a central thermostat or tie in with ODR in case you get a snow storm mid June That actually happened when I lived at Targhee ski resort in Alta, Wyoming. No harm in running it all year other than electrical cost

    Targee... you don't happen to have known Billy Danforth, Geno Forsyth & Bami, Mark Harrington, Tim Briggs, John Galogalie, Tom & Dorothy Warren, D.J. Friess, Tony Marchetti, Annabelle Lombard, Tanna Rogers, Wes Krause, 'Wild Bill' Nicholson, or "on and on", did you?

    Mike
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
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    'Hot Rod'... here's a thing that is a side issue for me now... the "unusual" things you see in original design. Would the designer have been looking to specifically create laminar flow in the delivery system (boiler to DHW... to LLH... to zone origination... then run to manifolds)? I know I don't need to know, but I always get caught up by puzzles... what Are these pieces, and where do they go... =]

    Mike
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
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    TAG said:

    Of course I would steer you to Caleffi components :)

    Question: Why not just have the higher heat load area on ODR so it can circulate all the time and control the lower with a simple zone valve. One pump -- on when the boiler is turned on for the season. The alpha will know to ramp up and down


    I don't have an answer to "Question". Maybe... that's may be, also... The north 1/2 does have a small aspect of solar gain in the sense it is connected... that there is non-emitter mass that can "see" the sunlit windows and/or the sun-struck floor. That is mass needing 8.5 sf mass surface per 1 sf of glass, as opposed to sun-struck which needs 4.5 sf / 1 sf. That aspect goes another 22 +/- feet north. It's not a large area of mass but it does exist in the north zone. And there is the general openness of the house and notable air movement... cold air drops, therefore warm air moves... whether that fits in the equation... another "maybe"... or not. In the end, it's still a high mass radiant panel with best characteristic being constant circulation. And... (I think this is an and...)... there is 'one each' south and north thermostat and no easy or aesthetic way to do otherwise.

    Mike

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    'Hot Rod'... here's a thing that is a side issue for me now... the "unusual" things you see in original design. Would the designer have been looking to specifically create laminar flow in the delivery system (boiler to DHW... to LLH... to zone origination... then run to manifolds)? I know I don't need to know, but I always get caught up by puzzles... what Are these pieces, and where do they go... =] Mike
    It would take a really low flow rate to go laminar in that piping, not sure what it would gain you? Dropping below 2 fps makes it hard to purge, the air stays behind the flow, especially in vertical pipes.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    If you changed, shortened loop lengths that will change the pump requirement a bit. Shortening that 285 helps as you can see how the head changes on shorter lengths, and lower gpm loops also 

    Here us a Caleffi equivalent balance valve, as you flow it down pressure drop across the valve goes up. Ideally you would know the setting, instead of the hand temperature method, to add that pressure drop into the calculation. The balance valve, being a control valve should sized by the Cv number, not pipe size. I suspect a 1/2” valve would be closest, since you only gave. 6 gpm flow

    Mid 80’s at Targhee, Larry Williamson was GM, Darla ran the place really. Ryan was the accountant who allegedly trained the horse on the TV series My Friend Flicka? Liz West and Kathy in the office. 
    Billy Shaw, Tigers dad ran the ski shop. Terry Bratten was patrol director, Gene Palmer ski school, Bambi also. A bunch of crazy cowboys from Driggs and Tetonia ran lifts Billy Rigby, Johnny Latham. They would ride the grain scoop shovels down the mountain at days end, screaming their brains out, none of them skied!
    I lived up there and patrolled for the summer race camps. Ex Olympian’s, the Corchrans had a camp in the summer.
    Great snow, better than Jackson it got very dry coming across that Arco desert, getting stuck on the bright side of the Tetons while Jackson got nothing. Champaign powder. 
    An old guy from Ohio owned the place back then,made a fortune in the plastics business with military contracts, etc. Had one of those old switchboards with the cables that you had to move around1950 vintage maybe?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    Engineers from the Arco Nuke site would ski Targhee on weekends, they had some unbelievable stories about what went on at that site, most of it is underground. Arco, Idaho was the first city in the world to have nuclear electricity, 1955. we always wondered what was in the snow that crossed that site and fell at Targhee. It would glow in the moonlight!

    https://www.atomicheritage.org/location/idaho-falls
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
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    hot_rod said:

    It would take a really low flow rate to go laminar in that piping, not sure what it would gain you? Dropping below 2 fps makes it hard to purge, the air stays behind the flow, especially in vertical pipes.

    Thank you...

    Mike

  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
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    hot_rod said:

    If you changed, shortened loop lengths that will change the pump requirement a bit. Shortening that 285 helps as you can see how the head changes on shorter lengths, and lower gpm loops also 

    Here is a Caleffi equivalent balance valve, as you flow it down pressure drop across the valve goes up. Ideally you would know the setting, instead of the hand temperature method, to add that pressure drop into the calculation. The balance valve, being a control valve should sized by the Cv number, not pipe size. I suspect a 1/2” valve would be closest, since you only gave. 6 gpm flow

    Mid 80’s at Targhee, Larry Williamson was GM, Darla ran the place really. Ryan was the accountant who allegedly trained the horse on the TV series My Friend Flicka? Liz West and Kathy in the office. 
    Billy Shaw, Tigers dad ran the ski shop. Terry Bratten was patrol director, Gene Palmer ski school, Bambi also. A bunch of crazy cowboys from Driggs and Tetonia ran lifts Billy Rigby, Johnny Latham. They would ride the grain scoop shovels down the mountain at days end, screaming their brains out, none of them skied!
    I lived up there and patrolled for the summer race camps. Ex Olympian’s, the Corchrans had a camp in the summer.
    Great snow, better than Jackson it got very dry coming across that Arco desert, getting stuck on the bright side of the Tetons while Jackson got nothing. Champaign powder. 

    An old guy from Ohio owned the place back then,made a fortune in the plastics business with military contracts, etc. Had one of those old switchboards with the cables that you had to move around, 1950 vintage maybe?
    I roughly get the pressure/gpm chart... thanks for pointing me to it. I think your idea of 3-way zone control valves (7.5 Cv) is a better way than the balance valve. Is simpler for me to conceptualize, too.

    I can't help myself, 'Hot Rod'... I noticed there is a Caleffi 3-way with higher Cv than the one you spec-ed. Is it in the pressure/gpm link you posted why 7.5 Cv rather than higher or lower?
    --------------------------------------------------------------

    By the mid '80's I had been priced out of downhill skiing... mostly late '70's for me. Targhee was a ton of fun... crazy powder, and often new powder on both Sat. and Sun. We'd drive Lander to Driggs after work on Friday... ski Sat./Sun., then smoke it home in the dark over the passes... or run as hard as we could given the roads/conditions common in those days.

    I know most of the people I mentioned were "there" when you were. Likely just on the opposite side of the operation.

    Mike
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
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    hot_rod said:

    Engineers from the Arco Nuke site would ski Targhee on weekends, they had some unbelievable stories about what went on at that site, most of it is underground. Arco, Idaho was the first city in the world to have nuclear electricity, 1955. we always wondered what was in the snow that crossed that site and fell at Targhee. It would glow in the moonlight!

    https://www.atomicheritage.org/location/idaho-falls

    I worked for years in Antarctica with a guy who had spent years working at Arco. We probably heard some of the same stories... =]

    There was a small nuke plant at McMurdo station... got kind of leaky. Clean up was pretty sketchy in the '60's Supposedly "Not a Problem", but a "borrowed" geiger counter showed places a person wish they hadn't found.

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    hot_rod said:

    If you changed, shortened loop lengths that will change the pump requirement a bit. Shortening that 285 helps as you can see how the head changes on shorter lengths, and lower gpm loops also 

    Here is a Caleffi equivalent balance valve, as you flow it down pressure drop across the valve goes up. Ideally you would know the setting, instead of the hand temperature method, to add that pressure drop into the calculation. The balance valve, being a control valve should sized by the Cv number, not pipe size. I suspect a 1/2” valve would be closest, since you only gave. 6 gpm flow

    Mid 80’s at Targhee, Larry Williamson was GM, Darla ran the place really. Ryan was the accountant who allegedly trained the horse on the TV series My Friend Flicka? Liz West and Kathy in the office. 
    Billy Shaw, Tigers dad ran the ski shop. Terry Bratten was patrol director, Gene Palmer ski school, Bambi also. A bunch of crazy cowboys from Driggs and Tetonia ran lifts Billy Rigby, Johnny Latham. They would ride the grain scoop shovels down the mountain at days end, screaming their brains out, none of them skied!
    I lived up there and patrolled for the summer race camps. Ex Olympian’s, the Corchrans had a camp in the summer.
    Great snow, better than Jackson it got very dry coming across that Arco desert, getting stuck on the bright side of the Tetons while Jackson got nothing. Champaign powder. 

    An old guy from Ohio owned the place back then,made a fortune in the plastics business with military contracts, etc. Had one of those old switchboards with the cables that you had to move around, 1950 vintage maybe?
    I roughly get the pressure/gpm chart... thanks for pointing me to it. I think your idea of 3-way zone control valves (7.5 Cv) is a better way than the balance valve. Is simpler for me to conceptualize, too.

    I can't help myself, 'Hot Rod'... I noticed there is a Caleffi 3-way with higher Cv than the one you spec-ed. Is it in the pressure/gpm link you posted why 7.5 Cv rather than higher or lower?
    --------------------------------------------------------------

    By the mid '80's I had been priced out of downhill skiing... mostly late '70's for me. Targhee was a ton of fun... crazy powder, and often new powder on both Sat. and Sun. We'd drive Lander to Driggs after work on Friday... ski Sat./Sun., then smoke it home in the dark over the passes... or run as hard as we could given the roads/conditions common in those days.

    I know most of the people I mentioned were "there" when you were. Likely just on the opposite side of the operation.

    Mike
    Go with the higher 7.5 Cv. Really the Cv should match the gpm requirement of the total flow going through it. No harm in a higher Cv since this is not a control valve, just a 3 way flow , on/ off device.

    Cv means the flow rate across the valve with a 1 psi pressure drop. So with 7.5 gpm flowing across the valve, you would measure a 1 psi pressure drop from in to out port.

    I spent the 70's ski bumming and working at Snowbird, Utah up to 1978. There were 3 of us that took care of all the mechanical stuff, large Sellers LP boilers in all the buildings back in those days. But also did snow removal, plowed the canyon, most anything. Huge avalanche years in the early 70' snow removal was a non stop job.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    Go with the higher 7.5 Cv. Really the Cv should match the gpm requirement of the total flow going through it. No harm in a higher Cv since this is not a control valve, just a 3 way flow, on/ off device.

    Cv means the flow rate across the valve with a 1 psi pressure drop. So with 7.5 gpm flowing across the valve, you would measure a 1 psi pressure drop from in to out port.

    Thanks for both of those points, 'Hot Rod'... I'm 'getting it' a bit more than I was.
    ------------------------------------------------
    I need to go on to some other things with the design... maybe tonight but maybe not.

    In your view, are we good so far with:
    ** 1" piping... near boiler.. to DHW.. secondary side LLH to zone take-off.. same size in PEX from a bit down stream of zone circulators to manifolds
    ** 3x Grundfos Alpha1 15-55F/LC (probably 4, for a spare)... 2x as zone circ (likely speed-2)... 1x for DHW (speed-3)
    ** 2x Caleffi Z307537
    ** 3x Caleffi Z151000 (one as spare)
    ** 1x Caleffi ZVR103
    Question on last... design shows Taco 150 Setpoint Controller and Taco Circulator Relay.. does the ZVR103 do both, or are there other pieces needed?
    ** Also... design shows 120V to 24VAC gismo (transformer, I think)... is there a piece you like for this?

    That is enough for now...

    Mike


  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    Since you changed loop length, the pumping requirement changes, pipe the system and see what speed gets you the gpm you need, can’t really predict that exactly. It reality it is not so easy to adjust flows within a 1/10 gpm. At some point just get the system up and running, tweak as the heating season evolves. Don’t get hung up on these small details

    The tekmar 150 is acting as the central control I mentioned, to drop power to the zone pumps at some temperature not indicated? Looks like it powers them on at 65 outdoor. But as we discussed outdoor temperature should not always dictate indoor heat requirements.
    One more control to experiment with in my opinion. I think you could do the same task with a relay wired to the boilers ODR function, save one control
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    Since you changed loop length, the pumping requirement changes, pipe the system and see what speed gets you the gpm you need, can’t really predict that exactly. It reality it is not so easy to adjust flows within a 1/10 gpm. At some point just get the system up and running, tweak as the heating season evolves. Don’t get hung up on these small details

    The tekmar 150 is acting as the central control I mentioned, to drop power to the zone pumps at some temperature not indicated? Looks like it powers them on at 65 outdoor. But as we discussed outdoor temperature should not always dictate indoor heat requirements.
    One more control to experiment with in my opinion. I think you could do the same task with a relay wired to the boilers ODR function, save one control

    I wish I hadn't put the following in with my last post. I jumped right into "control" stuff and I really didn't want to... it's going to be tough for me (I'm putting it off!).


    Question on last... design shows Taco 150 Setpoint Controller and Taco Circulator Relay.. does the ZVR103 do both, or are there other pieces needed?
    ** Also... design shows 120V to 24VAC gismo (transformer, I think)... is there a piece you like for this?

    What I would like to know is, are the pieces I listed in my last, what I need?

    And I'm going to have to backtrack to understand what you have said here... tomorrow...

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    yes on the parts list.
    These on both sides of every circulator
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
    Options
    Of course I would steer you to Caleffi components :)

    TAG said:

    Of course I would steer you to Caleffi components :)

    Question: Why not just have the higher heat load area on ODR so it can circulate all the time and control the lower with a simple zone valve. One pump -- on when the boiler is turned on for the season. The alpha will know to ramp up and down
    I don't have an answer to "Question". Maybe... that's may be, also... The north 1/2 does have a smaller aspect of solar gain in the sense it is connected... that there is non-emitter mass that can "see" the sunlit windows and/or the sun-struck floor. That is mass needing 8.5 sf mass surface per 1 sf of glass, as opposed to sun-struck which needs 4.5 sf / 1 sf. That aspect goes another 22 +/- feet north. It's not a large area of mass but it does exist in the north zone. And there is the general openness of the house and notable air movement... cold air drops, therefore warm air moves... whether that fits in the equation... another "maybe"... or not. In the end, it's still a high mass radiant panel with best characteristic being constant circulation. And... (I think this is an and...)... there is 'one each' south and north thermostats and no easy or aesthetic way to do otherwise.

    Mike



    I was asking hot rod ..... as it made no sense to me.

    Why have two zone valves -- 3 ways to boot. And worry about the pump --- The Alpha II is designed to turn off if deadheaded.

    If you are defeating the ODR with a thermostat on a valve why have it set up so the pump runs when it not doing anything ..... Both valves off and the pump is running doing nothing.

    Why not just let the boiler do it's thing with ODR on the zone with the high heat loss? Dial in the curve over a couple weeks and let it fly. The area needed less heat can either be adjusted using flow (turn the individual loops down) .... or if this does not work make provisions for a simple on/off zone valve. Or just do what I did -- place one in there and use it or not.

    KISS rules
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    Options
    TAG said:

    Of course I would steer you to Caleffi components :) I was asking hot rod ..... as it made no sense to me.

    Why have two zone valves -- 3 ways to boot. And worry about the pump --- The Alpha II is designed to turn off if deadheaded.

    If you are defeating the ODR with a thermostat on a valve why have it set up so the pump runs when it not doing anything ..... Both valves off and the pump is running doing nothing.

    Why not just let the boiler do it's thing with ODR on the zone with the high heat loss? Dial in the curve over a couple weeks and let it fly. The area needed less heat can either be adjusted using flow (turn the individual loops down) .... or if this does not work make provisions for a simple on/off zone valve. Or just do what I did -- place one in there and use it or not.

    KISS rules

    Sorry, 'TAG'... thought you were pointing to me.

    MIke

  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    yes on the parts list.
    These on both sides of every circulator

    I've got all of that... thank you!

    Mike

  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    These on both sides of every circulator

    Screenshot shows 3/4"... Get same Webstone sweat isolator flange in 1" (regular, not 'high velocity'... 50404 vs. 50404HV)?

    Mike

  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    Since you changed loop length, the pumping requirement changes, pipe the system and see what speed gets you the gpm you need, can’t really predict that exactly. It reality it is not so easy to adjust flows within a 1/10 gpm. At some point just get the system up and running, tweak as the heating season evolves. Don’t get hung up on these small details

    I'm reading this as... reduction in pipe length reduces head. Building system and figuring out from there is right move. Is right?
    hot_rod said:

    The tekmar 150 is acting as the central control I mentioned, to drop power to the zone pumps at some temperature not indicated? Looks like it powers them on at 65 outdoor. But as we discussed outdoor temperature should not always dictate indoor heat requirements.
    One more control to experiment with in my opinion. I think you could do the same task with a relay wired to the boilers ODR function, save one control

    I think the tekmar 150 in design drawing (and tekmar 70 outdoor sensor) went on paper prior to settling on manual WWSD. Does that change this aspect towards what you are pointing to above?

    I should say... The tekmar 521 wire running to boiler room (plenty extra) is 4-wire twisted pair... 'cause I thought there might be a need for either feedback from boiler... or... maybe could send either of slab sensor or air sensor data to boiler... or... ???

    Too late to be doing this...

    Mike

  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    Options
    Bits and pieces... lots of them... one thing at a time.

    On the design drawing downstream of both the DHW pump and the boiler pump there is a little symbol I've not found in my looking. Best guess is check valve... but my understanding is all Alpha1 15-55F/LC and UPML 25-104 (your 55k pump number) have built-in flow checks.

    What do the symbols designate? Needed? If yes, which are good ones?

    Mike
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
    edited September 2022
    Options
    The pumps have check valves that can be installed or removed.

    You don't need a check valve with a zone valve --- the zone valve is not going to allow any flow when it's closed.

    There are just a few items you need .... my picture shows them? You need to make sure you have a way to power purge the system on startup .... you may only need to use once -- but, you need to be able to purge the system. When I did my earliest system back in the early 90's the pump mounts w/ valves were not around .... so I did not have service valves at every pump. They make switching the pump a 10min job ... not a necessity but in 10 years you will be happy they are there.

    The Alpha I and II are quite different ..make sure you understand the difference.

    With just the 8 loops of pex on two manifolds -- will say again ---- the twin bladder tanks are a confusion. Is there another part of the system that's I am missing?

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options

    hot_rod said:

    Since you changed loop length, the pumping requirement changes, pipe the system and see what speed gets you the gpm you need, can’t really predict that exactly. It reality it is not so easy to adjust flows within a 1/10 gpm. At some point just get the system up and running, tweak as the heating season evolves. Don’t get hung up on these small details

    I'm reading this as... reduction in pipe length reduces head. Building system and figuring out from there is right move. Is right?
    hot_rod said:

    The tekmar 150 is acting as the central control I mentioned, to drop power to the zone pumps at some temperature not indicated? Looks like it powers them on at 65 outdoor. But as we discussed outdoor temperature should not always dictate indoor heat requirements.
    One more control to experiment with in my opinion. I think you could do the same task with a relay wired to the boilers ODR function, save one control

    I think the tekmar 150 in design drawing (and tekmar 70 outdoor sensor) went on paper prior to settling on manual WWSD. Does that change this aspect towards what you are pointing to above?

    I should say... The tekmar 521 wire running to boiler room (plenty extra) is 4-wire twisted pair... 'cause I thought there might be a need for either feedback from boiler... or... maybe could send either of slab sensor or air sensor data to boiler... or... ???

    Too late to be doing this...

    Mike

    The WWSD function only shuts down the boiler. IF you want to shut off the two zone pumps, that is what the 150 control does. I think those two pumps could be shut down by the boiler also with a relay interface

    No reason other than power consumption that you couldn't run the Alphas non stop. There could be shoulder season days where passive solar gain could be moved around the other zones if the pump was running and the boiler off on WWSD. Again, these are things to fine tune as you live there and see what gives you the best comfort, and how the home reacts across the seasons. Not every detail can be worked out or explained on paper.

    I'd run at least a 6 conductor to every wall stat location, gives you options for AC or other options down the road. When using that many connectors I land them in a standard 2X4 electrical box. That tekmar has an optional wall plate to cover a standard 2X 4 electrical box. Now you have room to store the extra conductors. if you bought 4 conductor, just do two runs to each location.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    TAG said:

    The pumps have check valves that can be installed or removed.

    You don't need a check valve with a zone valve --- the zone valve is not going to allow any flow when it's closed.

    There are just a few items you need .... my picture shows them? You need to make sure you have a way to power purge the system on startup .... you may only need to use once -- but, you need to be able to purge the system. When I did my earliest system back in the early 90's the pump mounts w/ valves were not around .... so I did not have service valves at every pump. They make switching the pump a 10min job ... not a necessity but in 10 years you will be happy they are there.

    The Alpha I and II are quite different ..make sure you understand the difference.

    With just the 8 loops of pex on two manifolds -- will say again ---- the twin bladder tanks are a confusion. Is there another part of the system that's I am missing?

    If there is a chance only one of the two zone pumps were running, the checks would prevent reverse flow from the "off" circuit. The checks come with the Alphas, no harm is putting them in. They can make purging easier also.

    If you are going with the 3 way zone valves, they really never shut flow off, two ports are always open. Better to call them diverter valves, I suppose.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
    Options
    TAG said:

    The pumps have check valves that can be installed or removed.

    There are just a few items you need .... my picture shows them? You need to make sure you have a way to power purge the system on startup .... you may only need to use once -- but, you need to be able to purge the system. When I did my earliest system back in the early 90's the pump mounts w/ valves were not around .... so I did not have service valves at every pump. They make switching the pump a 10min job ... not a necessity but in 10 years you will be happy they are there.

    The Alpha I and II are quite different ..make sure you understand the difference.

    With just the 8 loops of pex on two manifolds -- will say again ---- the twin bladder tanks are a confusion. Is there another part of the system that's I am missing?

    The designs original UPS15-58FC (for constant circ. and DHW... and the pump Lochinvar provided with boiler at the time) all had check valves and they were to be left in. Designer said constant circ. pumps would not be bothered by them at all.

    Filling and purging is one of the things I need to get to in piecing out all the parts... one thing at a time, for me. And I guess that is true of the twin expansion tanks.

    There is no other part of the system. My memory of the expansion tanks was two smaller were big enough and one bigger was bigger than needed. I've spent some time today looking through conversations with the designer and expansion tank sizing papers.. not finding what I remember. I don't know what other pro's and con's there might be... like support on wall... or who knows ??? The design notes do say "Amtrol #30 in battery". I don't even know if that is two #30 or two #15 equaling #30. Like I said... another thing to be dealt with.

    Yup, Alpha1 one has only 3 speeds... same pump as Alpha2 but without the 'Auto Adapt' and 'Constant Pressure' functions.

    Mike
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    The WWSD function only shuts down the boiler. IF you want to shut off the two zone pumps, that is what the 150 control does. I think those two pumps could be shut down by the boiler also with a relay interface

    No reason other than power consumption that you couldn't run the Alphas non stop. There could be shoulder season days where passive solar gain could be moved around the other zones if the pump was running and the boiler off on WWSD. Again, these are things to fine tune as you live there and see what gives you the best comfort, and how the home reacts across the seasons. Not every detail can be worked out or explained on paper.

    I'd run at least a 6 conductor to every wall stat location, gives you options for AC or other options down the road. When using that many connectors I land them in a standard 2X4 electrical box. That tekmar has an optional wall plate to cover a standard 2X 4 electrical box. Now you have room to store the extra conductors. if you bought 4 conductor, just do two runs to each location.

    ** Do not want auto shutdown of constant circ. pumps (will unplug)... so no need 'tekmar 150' or associated outdoor sensor... and no need to figure a way for the boiler to do it, either.
    ** Switching 'Taco Circulator Relay' to Caleffi ZVR Zone-1 Relay (ZVR103).

    Those last two, points... do you see problems with either/or, or ??? Other parts needed or not needed ???
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Way too late to run 3-pair... 2-pair will have to do. Do have it to a 2x4 box but the slab sensor wires are using up the conduit space.

    A lot of this building is "written in stone". Stepped over a dollar to pick up a dime 25 + years ago and ran a lot of 1/2" 'smurf pipe' in the filled block cores. 3/4" would have made electrical life a lot easier then, and more flexible now, but I got it done and to the day's code, to boot.

    Today the house hit 78 deg... just sitting there. We've got 2' of sun on the floor. That is as hot as it has ever been in there and it would be degrees cooler if the brick flooring were uncovered (losing interior heat through the emitter and it's insulation during non-heating season... aren't going to be needing AC... open windows at night (figure a system for it) and if we don't want it higher than 65-70 it never will be.

    Mike



  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
    Options

    TAG said:

    The pumps have check valves that can be installed or removed.

    There are just a few items you need .... my picture shows them? You need to make sure you have a way to power purge the system on startup .... you may only need to use once -- but, you need to be able to purge the system. When I did my earliest system back in the early 90's the pump mounts w/ valves were not around .... so I did not have service valves at every pump. They make switching the pump a 10min job ... not a necessity but in 10 years you will be happy they are there.

    The Alpha I and II are quite different ..make sure you understand the difference.

    With just the 8 loops of pex on two manifolds -- will say again ---- the twin bladder tanks are a confusion. Is there another part of the system that's I am missing?

    The designs original UPS15-58FC (for constant circ. and DHW... and the pump Lochinvar provided with boiler at the time) all had check valves and they were to be left in. Designer said constant circ. pumps would not be bothered by them at all.

    Filling and purging is one of the things I need to get to in piecing out all the parts... one thing at a time, for me. And I guess that is true of the twin expansion tanks.

    There is no other part of the system. My memory of the expansion tanks was two smaller were big enough and one bigger was bigger than needed. I've spent some time today looking through conversations with the designer and expansion tank sizing papers.. not finding what I remember. I don't know what other pro's and con's there might be... like support on wall... or who knows ??? The design notes do say "Amtrol #30 in battery". I don't even know if that is two #30 or two #15 equaling #30. Like I said... another thing to be dealt with.

    Yup, Alpha1 one has only 3 speeds... same pump as Alpha2 but without the 'Auto Adapt' and 'Constant Pressure'
    functions.

    Mike
    I have one 15 tank for thousands of feet of pipe ... and it's a church conversion. Pex does not hold the volume of water like pipe and radiators.

    On the secondary .... it's the auto and constant pressure that gets you to the finish line. You want the auto to react to the load.

    One Alpha after the LLH like my picture ... make provisions in case you need the one zone valve. Ditch everything else. Yes on valves at the pumps .... spirovent and the fill valve fitting as I have at the Spirovent that holds the expansion tank... that's it.

    You don't need the extra check valves .... don't add stuff you don't need
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    Options
    hot_rod said:


    If there is a chance only one of the two zone pumps were running, the checks would prevent reverse flow from the "off" circuit. The checks come with the Alphas, no harm is putting them in. They can make purging easier also.

    If you are going with the 3 way zone valves, they really never shut flow off, two ports are always open. Better to call them diverter valves, I suppose.

    Am going to go with 3-way zone valves, 'Hot Rod'.

    Mike

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    About 4 dollars difference between a #15 and #30, at SupplyHouse, go with a # 30
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    About 4 dollars difference between a #15 and #30, at SupplyHouse, go with a # 30

    I was not saying to go with the #15 .... I was trying to point out how much you can put on a #15. He has two 30's in his layout with 8 loops? I did the #15 because I had no space and it was enough.

    Also -- Since the Alpha II is designed eliminate 3way valves and the use of bypass valves ... why use them?

    The Alpha II is also designed to know when valves open and close so there is no need to use more than one -- I'm not trying to be difficult -- trying to understand. If I'm using one basic Alpha II for 4 manifolds and 30+ loops -- why use two pumps for a simple system with 8 loops on two manifolds ?

    My furthest manifold is a 10/11 loop (forgethow many ) of 3/8 pex for retrofit plates ... it's about 50' away and gets good flow through the loops



  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    About 4 dollars difference between a #15 and #30, at SupplyHouse, go with a # 30

    Beyond cost of parts and additional piping, are there any functional (or other) differences between 2 #15 (4 gal. total, Amtrol) or 1 #30 (4.4 gal., Amtrol)?

    Mike

    Edit: The designer pointed me to Amtrol but mentioned "or equivalent". What other manufacturers would fit that?