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Help with heat loss and finishing existing design details_1

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  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    A Caleffi 573 Autofill is a great valve. It is a fast fill valve, about 5 gpm, so excellent for purging

    Here is the water spec out of the Lochinvar Knight manual. Your water is pretty far out of spec. That will be tough in your water heater tank also.

    If you fill your system with that well water, essentially you void the boiler warranty. And they can tell that when they cut open a failed boiler☹️

    you could fill, flush and pressure test with that water.  Once you fire the boiler all the minerals will come out of solution and coat the boiler heat exchanger. They stick to the hot metal surface, not unlike the bottom of your tea kettle 

    I’d run the water you have through a DI tower, or go and buy 55 gallons of DI or RO water for the final fill.
    Add a squirt of Rhomar conditioner to buffer that low Ph filtered water once it is up and running properly.

    Do you have any water treatment companies nearby? Culligan  or others? They sometimes will sell filtered water, used to be a buck a gallon in my area. Take a plastic barrel and they fill it with purified water

    But not softened water, needs to be demineralized.  Car washes have demineralized water for final rinse,  especially if 14 gpg is common around there. If you know the car wash dude, maybe get some water there.

    There is an Idronics issue on water quality that explains the different methods for treating hard water.

    I've spent time in Idronics #18, both before and yesterday. I do know the water isn't right and I do know it needs to be.
    ------------------------------------------

    I'm checking on what the plumbers do about out-of-spec fill water. They are hard to get ahold of. Will check the car wash, too. Nearest commercial 'water' outfit as a 'maybe' is 300+ mi. round trip.

    I've looked at the 573 you mentioned... also at NA573. Was wondering if a NA573 might not be a solution for "proper" make-up water. And I thought maybe a person with a NA573 and an extra filter could make their own demineralized water. I think this system will be about 27.5 gal.

    I put up a screenshot of Lochinvar 01/2022 I&O manual, p.57. Under 'Hardness' they mention a 5 - 12 gpg range, and not wanting less than 5 gpg. That converts to 85 ppm. I thought Caleffi demineralizing systems would take the water to <30 ppm. Something doesn't match here and I don't know what that is. Would you line me out on this, please?

    I'm still thinking to follow the designer's manual make-up instead of an auto-fill system, but I really don't know anything about the differences except a manual fill with 'cold' and 'hot' system gauge markings would seem to show hidden leaks. Would you give me views on the two ways, please?

    You mentioned... "You could fill, flush and pressure test with that water." Did you mean that literally... that for cleaning, flushing, pressure testing it would be OK to use the house water?

    Almost too many more than "just one thing at a time..." =]

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options

    hot_rod said:

    A Caleffi 573 Autofill is a great valve. It is a fast fill valve, about 5 gpm, so excellent for purging

    Here is the water spec out of the Lochinvar Knight manual. Your water is pretty far out of spec. That will be tough in your water heater tank also.

    If you fill your system with that well water, essentially you void the boiler warranty. And they can tell that when they cut open a failed boiler☹️

    you could fill, flush and pressure test with that water.  Once you fire the boiler all the minerals will come out of solution and coat the boiler heat exchanger. They stick to the hot metal surface, not unlike the bottom of your tea kettle 

    I’d run the water you have through a DI tower, or go and buy 55 gallons of DI or RO water for the final fill.
    Add a squirt of Rhomar conditioner to buffer that low Ph filtered water once it is up and running properly.

    Do you have any water treatment companies nearby? Culligan  or others? They sometimes will sell filtered water, used to be a buck a gallon in my area. Take a plastic barrel and they fill it with purified water

    But not softened water, needs to be demineralized.  Car washes have demineralized water for final rinse,  especially if 14 gpg is common around there. If you know the car wash dude, maybe get some water there.

    There is an Idronics issue on water quality that explains the different methods for treating hard water.

    I've spent time in Idronics #18 both before and yesterday. I do know the water isn't right and I do know it needs to be.
    ------------------------------------------

    I'm checking on what the plumbers do about out of spec fill water. They are hard to get ahold of. Will check the car wash, too. Nearest commercial 'water' outfit as a 'maybe' is 300+ mi. round trip.

    I've looked at the 573 you mentioned... also at NA573. Was wondering if a NA573 might not be a solution for "proper" make-up water. And I thought maybe a person with a NA573 and an extra filter could make their own demineralized water. I think this system will be about 27.5 gal.

    I put up a screenshot of Lochinvar 01/2022 I&O manual, p.57. Under 'Hardness' they mention a 5 - 12 gpg range, and not wanting less than 5 gpg. That converts to 85 ppm. I thought Caleffi demineralizing systems would take the water to <30 ppm. Something doesn't match here and I don't know what that is. Would you line me out on this, please?

    I'm still thinking to follow the designer's manual make-up instead of an auto-fill system, but I really don't know anything about the differences except a manual fill 'cold' and 'hot' gauge markings would seem to show hidden leaks. Would you give me views on the two ways, please?

    You mentioned... "<i class="Italic">You could fill, flush and pressure test with that water." Did you mean that literally... that for cleaning, flushing, pressure testing it would be OK to use the house water?

    Almost too many more than "just one thing at a time..." =]

    Mike


    These are small residential RO systems are slow, but run it into a drum for a day or two to get the amount you need. If your water is 14 gpg, you could blend some of that with the water you run through a RO system. it doesn't need to be 100% DI water. It may deplete the filters doing 40 or 50 gallons, but it is an inexpensive way to fix the water.

    If you have a softness test kit, , or buy one, try a blend of 50/ 50 in a gallon jug, test it.

    Since the water is not that far out of hardness spec, fill test, clean the system with that water. once everything is leak proof and running, drain and fill with the filtered water. Put a squirt of Rhomar conditioner in it. This Rhomar kit has a cleaner that you run in the system first. Flush it, fill with good water, then squirt the second can in

    Here is another way to build your own fill system. It's just an additional expansion tank, webstone valve, Caleffi auto-fill. Pressurized with good water. So you have a few gallons to replace any air that vents out.

    Your system will look similar to this. Boiler, hydro sep, etc.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    hot_rod said:

    A Caleffi 573 Autofill is a great valve. It is a fast fill valve, about 5 gpm, so excellent for purging

    Here is the water spec out of the Lochinvar Knight manual. Your water is pretty far out of spec. That will be tough in your water heater tank also.

    If you fill your system with that well water, essentially you void the boiler warranty. And they can tell that when they cut open a failed boiler☹️

    you could fill, flush and pressure test with that water.  Once you fire the boiler all the minerals will come out of solution and coat the boiler heat exchanger. They stick to the hot metal surface, not unlike the bottom of your tea kettle 

    I’d run the water you have through a DI tower, or go and buy 55 gallons of DI or RO water for the final fill.
    Add a squirt of Rhomar conditioner to buffer that low Ph filtered water once it is up and running properly.

    Do you have any water treatment companies nearby? Culligan  or others? They sometimes will sell filtered water, used to be a buck a gallon in my area. Take a plastic barrel and they fill it with purified water

    But not softened water, needs to be demineralized.  Car washes have demineralized water for final rinse,  especially if 14 gpg is common around there. If you know the car wash dude, maybe get some water there.

    There is an Idronics issue on water quality that explains the different methods for treating hard water.

    I've spent time in Idronics #18 both before and yesterday. I do know the water isn't right and I do know it needs to be.
    ------------------------------------------

    I'm checking on what the plumbers do about out of spec fill water. They are hard to get ahold of. Will check the car wash, too. Nearest commercial 'water' outfit as a 'maybe' is 300+ mi. round trip.

    I've looked at the 573 you mentioned... also at NA573. Was wondering if a NA573 might not be a solution for "proper" make-up water. And I thought maybe a person with a NA573 and an extra filter could make their own demineralized water. I think this system will be about 27.5 gal.

    I put up a screenshot of Lochinvar 01/2022 I&O manual, p.57. Under 'Hardness' they mention a 5 - 12 gpg range, and not wanting less than 5 gpg. That converts to 85 ppm. I thought Caleffi demineralizing systems would take the water to <30 ppm. Something doesn't match here and I don't know what that is. Would you line me out on this, please?

    I'm still thinking to follow the designer's manual make-up instead of an auto-fill system, but I really don't know anything about the differences except a manual fill 'cold' and 'hot' gauge markings would seem to show hidden leaks. Would you give me views on the two ways, please?

    You mentioned... "<i class="Italic">You could fill, flush and pressure test with that water." Did you mean that literally... that for cleaning, flushing, pressure testing it would be OK to use the house water?

    Almost too many more than "just one thing at a time..." =]

    Mike


    hot_rod said:

    These are small residential RO systems are slow, but run it into a drum for a day or two to get the amount you need. If your water is 14 gpg, you could blend some of that with the water you run through a RO system. it doesn't need to be 100% DI water. It may deplete the filters doing 40 or 50 gallons, but it is an inexpensive way to fix the water.

    I looked at the AquaticLife site. The user manual of the AquaticLife 4-stage system limits hardness for RO membrane to 10 gpg and TDS to 170 ppm. I don't know (didn't find) if the two filters before RO would take our 14 gpg / 280 TDS water down far enough for the RO... do you?
    hot_rod said:

    If you have a softness test kit, , or buy one, try a blend of 50/ 50 in a gallon jug, test it.
    Since the water is not that far out of hardness spec, fill test, clean the system with that water. once everything is leak proof and running, drain and fill with the filtered water. Put a squirt of Rhomar conditioner in it. This Rhomar kit has a cleaner that you run in the system first. Flush it, fill with good water, then squirt the second can in

    Thank you for clearing me up on uses for the 'water-as-is'... that helps. I picked up on Rhomar on "The Wall" a long time ago, along with some other often mentioned boiler water companies... Rhomar will work for me.

    It seems Lochinvar's acceptable water spec. is pretty loose. My tendency is to try to set this water system up in a more "industry ideal" manner. Maybe it's just I don't know any better.
    hot_rod said:

    Here is another way to build your own fill system. It's just an additional expansion tank, webstone valve, Caleffi auto-fill. Pressurized with good water. So you have a few gallons to replace any air that vents out.

    _ Is the tank pictured a potable water type expansion tank... takes more pressure than a system tank?
    _ Does it refill pumping into the webstone valve and the schrader valve is on the end out of the picture?
    _ I'm wondering how a person knows if the tank needs more make-up water?

    Thank you for the pictures of the refill system and the 'similar system'.

    Mike
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
    Options
    The plumbers use on-site water for filling systems. If the water is hard they put in a softener system (new builds that are not on city water and mostly need a softener anyhow). A lot of their jobs are on city water. I've not been able to get specs. on the city water so far. I would guess it is not 'hydronic industry spec.'.
    I've got an e-mail out to the car wash.
    The folks who did our water test don't know of anyone in the state making demineralized or deionized water for sale. Probably it's made as process water somewhere, but where?
    ------------------------------------------------------

    I don't know how the water is going to shake out. I want to try to go somewhere with the fill aspect. Do you see good's, bad's, indifferent's with manual fill? I know a person gets old and 'forgetting' is part of the program. Is that reason enough to set a system for autofill? Is losing water in a system like ours and not knowing it a 'real' possibility?

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options

    hot_rod said:

    hot_rod said:

    A Caleffi 573 Autofill is a great valve. It is a fast fill valve, about 5 gpm, so excellent for purging

    Here is the water spec out of the Lochinvar Knight manual. Your water is pretty far out of spec. That will be tough in your water heater tank also.

    If you fill your system with that well water, essentially you void the boiler warranty. And they can tell that when they cut open a failed boiler☹️

    you could fill, flush and pressure test with that water.  Once you fire the boiler all the minerals will come out of solution and coat the boiler heat exchanger. They stick to the hot metal surface, not unlike the bottom of your tea kettle 

    I’d run the water you have through a DI tower, or go and buy 55 gallons of DI or RO water for the final fill.
    Add a squirt of Rhomar conditioner to buffer that low Ph filtered water once it is up and running properly.

    Do you have any water treatment companies nearby? Culligan  or others? They sometimes will sell filtered water, used to be a buck a gallon in my area. Take a plastic barrel and they fill it with purified water

    But not softened water, needs to be demineralized.  Car washes have demineralized water for final rinse,  especially if 14 gpg is common around there. If you know the car wash dude, maybe get some water there.

    There is an Idronics issue on water quality that explains the different methods for treating hard water.

    I've spent time in Idronics #18 both before and yesterday. I do know the water isn't right and I do know it needs to be.
    ------------------------------------------

    I'm checking on what the plumbers do about out of spec fill water. They are hard to get ahold of. Will check the car wash, too. Nearest commercial 'water' outfit as a 'maybe' is 300+ mi. round trip.

    I've looked at the 573 you mentioned... also at NA573. Was wondering if a NA573 might not be a solution for "proper" make-up water. And I thought maybe a person with a NA573 and an extra filter could make their own demineralized water. I think this system will be about 27.5 gal.

    I put up a screenshot of Lochinvar 01/2022 I&O manual, p.57. Under 'Hardness' they mention a 5 - 12 gpg range, and not wanting less than 5 gpg. That converts to 85 ppm. I thought Caleffi demineralizing systems would take the water to <30 ppm. Something doesn't match here and I don't know what that is. Would you line me out on this, please?

    I'm still thinking to follow the designer's manual make-up instead of an auto-fill system, but I really don't know anything about the differences except a manual fill 'cold' and 'hot' gauge markings would seem to show hidden leaks. Would you give me views on the two ways, please?

    You mentioned... "<i class="Italic">You could fill, flush and pressure test with that water." Did you mean that literally... that for cleaning, flushing, pressure testing it would be OK to use the house water?

    Almost too many more than "just one thing at a time..." =]

    Mike


    hot_rod said:

    These are small residential RO systems are slow, but run it into a drum for a day or two to get the amount you need. If your water is 14 gpg, you could blend some of that with the water you run through a RO system. it doesn't need to be 100% DI water. It may deplete the filters doing 40 or 50 gallons, but it is an inexpensive way to fix the water.

    I looked at the AquaticLife site. The user manual of the AquaticLife 4-stage system limits hardness for RO membrane to 10 gpg and TDS to 170 ppm. I don't know (didn't find) if the two filters before RO would take our 14 gpg / 280 TDS water down far enough for the RO... do you?
    hot_rod said:

    If you have a softness test kit, , or buy one, try a blend of 50/ 50 in a gallon jug, test it.
    Since the water is not that far out of hardness spec, fill test, clean the system with that water. once everything is leak proof and running, drain and fill with the filtered water. Put a squirt of Rhomar conditioner in it. This Rhomar kit has a cleaner that you run in the system first. Flush it, fill with good water, then squirt the second can in

    Thank you for clearing me up on uses for the 'water-as-is'... that helps. I picked up on Rhomar on "The Wall" a long time ago, along with some other often mentioned boiler water companies... Rhomar will work for me.

    It seems Lochinvar's acceptable water spec. is pretty loose. My tendency is to try to set this water system up in a more "industry ideal" manner. Maybe it's just I don't know any better.
    hot_rod said:

    Here is another way to build your own fill system. It's just an additional expansion tank, webstone valve, Caleffi auto-fill. Pressurized with good water. So you have a few gallons to replace any air that vents out.

    _ Is the tank pictured a potable water type expansion tank... takes more pressure than a system tank?
    _ Does it refill pumping into the webstone valve and the schrader valve is on the end out of the picture?
    _ I'm wondering how a person knows if the tank needs more make-up water?

    Thank you for the pictures of the refill system and the 'similar system'.

    Mike
    The pressure gauge on that "fill" tank tells you when it is low. Really once the system has run for a few days it should not ever need additional water.

    If you had extremely hard water 20, 30, 40 gpg or more softened water may be the lesser of two evils.

    Different opinions on softened water in boilers as it is an Ion exchange, so while you take out the hardness, you substitute those ions with the salt ions, so chloride levels go up.

    You could soften, then RO.

    Or get a DI system. demineralized water goes through a multi media similar to a softener, but scrubs both + and - ions out. It cannot be reused once you deplete the resin. There are some small DI that do 35- 50 gallons, then replace the cartridge. Find them at any water treatment online site, get a 20" size. Use the canister to filter you potable water when you are done making boiler water. If your water has any smell or taste a "polishing" filter, carbon usually is nice to have. I'm on city water and use one to take chlorine taste and odor out at the kitchen cold.

    This issue explains the difference between water treatments.
    https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_18_na.pdf
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    The pressure gauge on that "fill" tank tells you when it is low. Really once the system has run for a few days it should not ever need additional water.

    Thank you for that. I had gotten the idea the system would always need some amount of make-up water.

    I'll figure out something besides installing a softner... just seems like the wrong road... that there are better alternatives.

    I'm still wondering if manual fill is better than autofeed. As well as the designer feeling it was a better way, I ran into this:
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1621508/#Comment_1621508

    And then this ("clammy" again, but lost the post URL somewhere):

    "Have a de mineralized filter installed-on your water feed to the boiler for make up water . Have the installer add some purge valve and fill the system and use axiom purpro filter and install a de mineralized the boiler water then install the make up cartridge ( califee I believe na573 part #) . The make up water should be test for chlorides and total Dissolved solids . After water has test low add a inhibitor by a reputable company sentienal ,rhomar and adey all make fine hydronic inhibitors sentinel sells testing strips to ensure that you have enough in the system and weather or not the levels are low and more needs to be added it good insurance and also lowers corrosion over all in the system alongside w a bunch of other beneficially benefits in it use. On another note if a ecm circulator pump will be used install a magnetic dirt separator to protect it from iron oxide and magnite which will help protect and prolong your pumps life span . I like the adey magnetic dirt separator they work very well w magnetic particles which ecm pumps are not to keen on . peace and good luck clammy"

    Would you comment on those, please? In particular, I'm wondering about what I might not understand about how a NA573 works. I've read the data pages on it.

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options

    hot_rod said:

    The pressure gauge on that "fill" tank tells you when it is low. Really once the system has run for a few days it should not ever need additional water.

    Thank you for that. I had gotten the idea the system would always need some amount of make-up water.

    I'll figure out something besides installing a softner... just seems like the wrong road... that there are better alternatives.

    I'm still wondering if manual fill is better than autofeed. As well as the designer feeling it was a better way, I ran into this:
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1621508/#Comment_1621508

    And then this ("clammy" again, but lost the post URL somewhere):

    "Have a de mineralized filter installed-on your water feed to the boiler for make up water . Have the installer add some purge valve and fill the system and use axiom purpro filter and install a de mineralized the boiler water then install the make up cartridge ( califee I believe na573 part #) . The make up water should be test for chlorides and total Dissolved solids . After water has test low add a inhibitor by a reputable company sentienal ,rhomar and adey all make fine hydronic inhibitors sentinel sells testing strips to ensure that you have enough in the system and weather or not the levels are low and more needs to be added it good insurance and also lowers corrosion over all in the system alongside w a bunch of other beneficially benefits in it use. On another note if a ecm circulator pump will be used install a magnetic dirt separator to protect it from iron oxide and magnite which will help protect and prolong your pumps life span . I like the adey magnetic dirt separator they work very well w magnetic particles which ecm pumps are not to keen on . peace and good luck clammy"

    Would you comment on those, please? In particular, I'm wondering about what I might not understand about how a NA573 works. I've read the data pages on it.

    Mike
    Ford or Chevy, auto or manual. It's really a personal preference. Either fill method will work.

    The NA 573 will do about 35- 50 gallons of water before the cartridge needs to be replaced. It really depends more on the TDS of the water not just the hardness. TDS is all the dissolved minerals, + and - ions. The higher the TDS, the less gallons the cartridge will demineralize.

    The Idronic issue discusses the difference between softening and demineralizing.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    hot_rod said:

    The pressure gauge on that "fill" tank tells you when it is low. Really once the system has run for a few days it should not ever need additional water.

    Thank you for that. I had gotten the idea the system would always need some amount of make-up water.

    I'll figure out something besides installing a softner... just seems like the wrong road... that there are better alternatives.

    I'm still wondering if manual fill is better than autofeed. As well as the designer feeling it was a better way, I ran into this:
    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1621508/#Comment_1621508

    And then this ("clammy" again, but lost the post URL somewhere):

    "Have a de mineralized filter installed-on your water feed to the boiler for make up water . Have the installer add some purge valve and fill the system and use axiom purpro filter and install a de mineralized the boiler water then install the make up cartridge ( califee I believe na573 part #) . The make up water should be test for chlorides and total Dissolved solids . After water has test low add a inhibitor by a reputable company sentienal ,rhomar and adey all make fine hydronic inhibitors sentinel sells testing strips to ensure that you have enough in the system and weather or not the levels are low and more needs to be added it good insurance and also lowers corrosion over all in the system alongside w a bunch of other beneficially benefits in it use. On another note if a ecm circulator pump will be used install a magnetic dirt separator to protect it from iron oxide and magnite which will help protect and prolong your pumps life span . I like the adey magnetic dirt separator they work very well w magnetic particles which ecm pumps are not to keen on . peace and good luck clammy"

    Would you comment on those, please? In particular, I'm wondering about what I might not understand about how a NA573 works. I've read the data pages on it.

    Mike
    Ford or Chevy, auto or manual. It's really a personal preference. Either fill method will work.

    The NA 573 will do about 35- 50 gallons of water before the cartridge needs to be replaced. It really depends more on the TDS of the water not just the hardness. TDS is all the dissolved minerals, + and - ions. The higher the TDS, the less gallons the cartridge will demineralize.

    The Idronic issue discusses the difference between softening and demineralizing.
    I believe I understand the difference between softening and demineralization... softening gets rid of scaling elements but leaves water with the negative of high conductivity. Demineralized water has largely reduced scaling AND much lower conductivity. I know that is pretty simplistic, but is there something you want me to get about system water you feel I'm not?

    I'm pretty sure I can get more water than the system needs making it with a NA573 + extra filters. I could have a pressurized feed tank for make up water (made with the NA573)... OR... I could directly run house water through a NA573 for make up water. Seems like the second method is simpler.

    Either of the two methods could be manual or auto feed, but I think they both need something to monitor for water use (normal make-up conditions or leaks... visible or otherwise). The pressure gauge on the pressure tank make-up system you showed does that. I don't know what ways system water loss ('normal' or hidden leaks) can be monitored easily when not a pressure tank system. I know some systems have water meters. I know the designer mentioned a pressure valve marked at cold and marked at hot would show system water loss.

    Are there ways to monitor a "not pressure tank" loss you feel are better?

    With a cold/hot marked pressure gauge, where are the better places to put it?

    Do you think 'clammy's' idea about constant pressure on the BFP valve is a good idea?

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    a pressure gauge on your system, downstream of any fill system is a good indicator. A pinhole leak may take days to show a drop in pressure   But even a drip on a fitting leak will show up as a pressure loss.

    You can buy accurate, large face 30 psi gauges that can detect 1 psi change in system pressure.

    pressure in a sealed hydronic system will vary from hot to cold, when operating, but should never drop to zero

    Usually an installer pressurized a system at ever phase every day to catch a leak sooner rather than later. Especially with radiant tube in concrete or hidden in finished spaces. On jobs that took me days or weeks to complete, I would leave pressure on every days end. If pressure dropped find and fix the leak before adding more piping and joints
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
    Options
    All your responses are worth a lot to me, 'Hot Rod'. This last one is worth it's weight in copper... :)

    When you build a system for yourself, do you feed manually or auto-feed? What is your reasoning? Yeah, I know, I keep pecking at this. What I'm trying to do is find some understanding on the topic (and in the whole system, really).

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    I use a fill tank or expansion tank in any glycoled systems, you never want a fill on those systems risking diluting the blend%
    If I have an old system that I suspect has a small leak, the tanks will tell you how much they are loosing, handy for troubleshooting 

    Most  systems I worked on had AutoFills and I leave them turned on. At least leave them on for several weeks during heating season to be sure 100% air removed
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    Options
    OK, I'm clear... clear as I can be right now.

    I'm still in the area of 'well'... 'well tank'... BFP... PRV.

    A thing I came across was protecting wells. What I thought of was another BFP to protect well. Is that a thing you would do?

    Same as above... If the answer is yes, which side of the well tank is better? (No matter which way I turn it, I can't see how it should be... maybe that makes the answer 'No').

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    Anytime you connect into a potable water system, yours or a public one, you need to have a BFD on any equipment that you do not want to drink or bath in that water if it were to flow backwards.

    So common residential BFD locations are boilers, lawn and fire sprinklers, hose bibs, kitchen faucet hose sprayers, etc

    So that is another advantage of a fill tank, the BFD requirement goes away.

    In some areas a RPZ reduced pressure zone type BFD are required on boilers. As such those need a yearly inspection by a certified backflow tester, 150 bucks or so, yearly. That is the primary driver of fill tanks in some areas.

    The type of BFD required has to do with the hazard. Plain tap boiler water has been considered low hazard. Until you add glycol or other boiler conditioners. Then you need a more higher protection BFD.

    Inspectors get nervous not knowing what might be added to a residential boiler water, so more and more they error towards RPZ type BFDs on boilers.

    Many well pumps have a check valve in the piping, in submersible pumps they are usually right at the pump discharge. So in theory you have a bit of protection from back flow into your well or the aquifer, although not an ASME listed valve.

    If you plan on breaking bad up there in the wild wonderful Wyoming, you want an additional POU point of use BFD on any equipment used to keep backflow out of you homes piping :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    Anytime you connect into a potable water system, yours or a public one, you need to have a BFD on any equipment that you do not want to drink or bath in that water if it were to flow backwards.

    So common residential BFD locations are boilers, lawn and fire sprinklers, hose bibs, kitchen faucet hose sprayers, etc

    So that is another advantage of a fill tank, the BFD requirement goes away.

    In some areas a RPZ reduced pressure zone type BFD are required on boilers. As such those need a yearly inspection by a certified backflow tester, 150 bucks or so, yearly. That is the primary driver of fill tanks in some areas.

    The type of BFD required has to do with the hazard. Plain tap boiler water has been considered low hazard. Until you add glycol or other boiler conditioners. Then you need a more higher protection BFD.

    Inspectors get nervous not knowing what might be added to a residential boiler water, so more and more they error towards RPZ type BFDs on boilers.

    Many well pumps have a check valve in the piping, in submersible pumps they are usually right at the pump discharge. So in theory you have a bit of protection from back flow into your well or the aquifer, although not an ASME listed valve.

    If you plan on breaking bad up there in the wild wonderful Wyoming, you want an additional POU point of use BFD on any equipment used to keep backflow out of you homes piping :)

    You buried me, 'Hot Rod'... (where's the animated 'smiley' that alternates smile to frown and back again?)

    OK... the submersible pump does have a check valve... and a pitless adapter with a hydrant at the well. So there is a yard hydrant and two, thru-wall, freeze-proof hose bibs (sill cocks, some say), and all can be had with built in backflow (anti-syphon, some say). Does that constitute 'right and proper' backflow prevention for those things?

    Seems like, if a person wants to keep 'stuff' out of the well the point at which well and house interface is prior to well (pressure) tank... on the incoming line. Is that correct? Would you put a BFP there?

    Also seems like a yard hydrant (freeze proof) between well tank and well needs a 'right and proper' BFP not just one in name only. Is that the way to see this? Do you know of good brands to look at?

    Mike
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
    Options
    NA573...

    Ran into two different unit pipings shown for this. Assume one is not correct. Would you say which is, please?
    Caleffi Catalog - Aug 2022, page 98 (pops right up using "find" for NA573)
    https://caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/2022_caleffi_plumbing_and_hydronics_price_catalog_august.pdf
    Caleffi Installation (also same on NA573 'tech' page)...
    https://caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/na11310-03.pdf

    Also... wondering if I am misunderstanding an aspect of the NA573 filter housing. What I believe is... the filter housing has FNPT in plastic top for it's piping connections. If that is correct, how does a person pipe it with metal without splitting the plastic sooner or later?

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    Pretty much any hose bib or yard hydrant you buy has a siphon type BFD either on it or built in. If not, screw on ones are available.  I think what you have planned is adequate.  The check valves in the well pump prevent water from flowing back down the well, they are not a listed backflow device, they serve the purpose and should protect the well. Mainly you want to keep bad water out of the plumbing at those point of use places. Then the well is not harmed, or your family

    I would put the AutoFill before the cartridge filter so it is under low pressure.

    Yes you need to be careful threading into any female plastic thread.  We buy that assembly from another vendor and it is only available in that configuration if we want the clear plastic canister. The clear shows when the cartridge changes color and needs to be replaced

    You can still find brass body cartridge filters if the plastic is a concern. 

    Generally filters used on hot water applications are brass with a stainless steel canister.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    I think what you have planned is adequate. The check valves in the well pump prevent water from flowing back down the well, they are not a listed backflow device, they serve the purpose and should protect the well. Mainly you want to keep bad water out of the plumbing at those point of use places. Then the well is not harmed, or your family

    I would put the AutoFill before the cartridge filter so it is under low pressure.

    OK, I've got the 'point of use' thing understood... your help along with some side reading.

    So, the cartridge filter is under the pressure set at the AutoFill PRV (15 psi as supplied). Somewhere I think I picked up the expansion tank would be 12 psi. I understand both PRV and expansion tank can be other pressures. It seems like the PRV needs to be at least equal, if not more pressure than the expansion tank. Is that right?

    Mike



  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    determine the static fill pressure you need by
    elevation from the expansion tank connection to the highest point in the piping.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    determine the static fill pressure you need by
    elevation from the expansion tank connection to the highest point in the piping.

    I read this yesterday... https://engproguides.com/expansion-tank-design-hot-water.html Made me aware of the topic, at least. Thanks for the short version... =]

    So... If there is 5 feet from fill point to highest point in piping (likely should be an air vent there)... then (5' x .433) + 5 = 7.17 as a minimum. There would seem to be a maximum but is the preset of 15 psi on PRV and 7.17 psi at tank (or 8 - 10 psi) correct?

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    set the fill at 10psi I and pre charge the tank to 8. That will allow a small amount of the fill water into the tank, essentially giving a bit reserve, for when air bleeds out.

    No harm is some extra static fill pressure, mainly you want to assure the minimum based on the 5’ dimension.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    set the fill at 10psi I and pre charge the tank to 8. That will allow a small amount of the fill water into the tank, essentially giving a bit reserve, for when air bleeds out.

    No harm is some extra static fill pressure, mainly you want to assure the minimum based on the 5’ dimension.

    I've got that... and thank you.

    I've spent a little time in Idronics Mag., "PM", and "PM Engineer" on where does the expansion tank/fill point go. The designer has it below a vent at the top of the LLH (Viessmann 120/80)... https://pimmedia.winsupplyinc.com/pim/SPEC/112017/VIESSMANN_7179488_VIE7179488_SPEC.pdf)
    I don't know how that works... have not seen it done in that manner other places. Would you comment on that, please?

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    Any one of the 4 ports could be a place to connect tank and fill valve. Bottom connections are usually easiest to mount tank below.
    Avoid the center bottom as dirt can fall out of solution and onto the diaphragm in the tank.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
    Options
    The placement is interesting ... Viessmann application manual for the 200 has it on the upper right of the LLH (out to the system) before the pump.


    Viessmann also supplies the LLH with a port for the a LLH temp sensor that the boiler can accommodate. My system is using the smallest LLH the 80/50.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    TAG said:

    The placement is interesting ... Viessmann application manual for the 200 has it on the upper right of the LLH (out to the system) before the pump.


    Viessmann also supplies the LLH with a port for the a LLH temp sensor that the boiler can accommodate. My system is using the smallest LLH the 80/50.

    We made a sensor well specifically from a request from Viessmann folks for the sep 4. Installers tell us the sensor works best a foot of so downstream to get a more accurate reading of the "blended" temperature to the distribution.

    The pressure drop in an engineered LLH should be very low from top to bottom, so the expansion tank can mount at any of the 4 ports.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
    edited September 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    TAG said:

    The placement is interesting ... Viessmann application manual for the 200 has it on the upper right of the LLH (out to the system) before the pump.


    Viessmann also supplies the LLH with a port for the a LLH temp sensor that the boiler can accommodate. My system is using the smallest LLH the 80/50.

    We made a sensor well specifically from a request from Viessmann folks for the sep 4. Installers tell us the sensor works best a foot of so downstream to get a more accurate reading of the "blended" temperature to the distribution.

    The pressure drop in an engineered LLH should be very low from top to bottom, so the expansion tank can mount at any of the 4 ports.
    Makes sense .... I have the older design with the sensor on top --- I believe they changed it when the new sized 80/60 came out. My last project used the smallest boiler at around 60kBTU and they told me the 50 was fine. I guess the sensor must be close enough -- or relative along an equal curve to work.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    TAG said:

    hot_rod said:

    TAG said:

    The placement is interesting ... Viessmann application manual for the 200 has it on the upper right of the LLH (out to the system) before the pump.


    Viessmann also supplies the LLH with a port for the a LLH temp sensor that the boiler can accommodate. My system is using the smallest LLH the 80/50.

    We made a sensor well specifically from a request from Viessmann folks for the sep 4. Installers tell us the sensor works best a foot of so downstream to get a more accurate reading of the "blended" temperature to the distribution.

    The pressure drop in an engineered LLH should be very low from top to bottom, so the expansion tank can mount at any of the 4 ports.
    Makes sense .... I have the older design with the sensor on top --- I believe they changed it when the new sized 80/60 came out. My last project used the smallest boiler at around 60kBTU and they told me the 50 was fine. I guess the sensor must be close enough -- or relative along an equal curve to work.
    I think it depends on flow rates in the LLH. If you have a system with wide variations in A or B side flows, then the downstream sensor would be more accurate.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited September 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    Any one of the 4 ports could be a place to connect tank and fill valve. Bottom connections are usually easiest to mount tank below.
    Avoid the center bottom as dirt can fall out of solution and onto the diaphragm in the tank.

    Thank you.

    I would like to put the expansion tank on the boiler return port. I did learn reading about keeping an expansion tank cooler, rather than warmer (J. Siegenthaler).

    I'll see how my place-pick fits the reality of wall space available, then run across other constraints somewhere down the road.

    Mike
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    Options
    I've got a question about LLH (this one) and both air and dirt separation. I've read about both in Idronics and from J. Siegenthaler.

    I'm wondering if a person wouldn't be better off putting both a separate microbubble air separator and a DirtMag in the system... that the Viessmann LLH won't do these two things as well as they need to be done.

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options

    I've got a question about LLH (this one) and both air and dirt separation. I've read about both in Idronics and from J. Siegenthaler.

    I'm wondering if a person wouldn't be better off putting both a separate microbubble air separator and a DirtMag in the system... that the Viessmann LLH won't do these two things as well as they need to be done.

    Mike

    I highly recommend efficient air removal with a micro bubble type air eliminator. You don't get a high efficiency system without high efficient air removal. Mag separation is also important with ECMs. Many Viessmann installers use Caleffi Sep 4 for these reasons.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    GGross
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
    Options

    hot_rod said:

    Any one of the 4 ports could be a place to connect tank and fill valve. Bottom connections are usually easiest to mount tank below.
    Avoid the center bottom as dirt can fall out of solution and onto the diaphragm in the tank.

    Thank you.

    I would like to put the expansion tank on the boiler return port. I did learn reading about keeping an expansion tank cooler, rather than warmer (J. Siegenthaler).

    I'll see how my place-pick fits the reality of wall space available, then run across other constraints somewhere down the road.

    Mike
    Are you sure about that? .... I don't remember him being against "pumping away". This placed the tank on the outlet of the boiler typically under a Spirovent and the fill valves with the pump after. That exit pipe down to the tank does not get all that hot in my experience. My oldest system -- I replaced the tank when I did some work on it when the indirect needed to be replaced .... it was 23 years old.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    In some cases you can have both! The exp tank in coolest fluid & pumping way.

    Circulator could be on return also within the cooler fluid. fig 5-3

    It would need to be a low pressure drop boiler, most cast iron and steel boilers qualify, if circ is on supply, tank PONPC, on return.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    I've got a question about LLH (this one) and both air and dirt separation. I've read about both in Idronics and from J. Siegenthaler.

    I'm wondering if a person wouldn't be better off putting both a separate microbubble air separator and a DirtMag in the system... that the Viessmann LLH won't do these two things as well as they need to be done.

    Mike

    I highly recommend efficient air removal with a micro bubble type air eliminator. You don't get a high efficiency system without high efficient air removal. Mag separation is also important with ECMs. Many Viessmann installers use Caleffi Sep 4 for these reasons.
    With an LLH and very low supply temp. water (+/- 88 F), where best for micro-bubble air eliminator and dirt-mag?

    For the system I have, which air eliminator and dirt-mag would you use?

    Mike

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    the hottest point in the piping, as soon as you come out of the boiler. You might go with something like a discaldirtmag, to get complete protection 


    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited November 2022
    Options
    TAG said:


    Thank you.

    I would like to put the expansion tank on the boiler return port. I did learn reading about keeping an expansion tank cooler, rather than warmer (J. Siegenthaler).

    I'll see how my place-pick fits the reality of wall space available, then run across other constraints somewhere down the road.

    Mike

    Are you sure about that? .... I don't remember him being against "pumping away". This placed the tank on the outlet of the boiler typically under a Spirovent and the fill valves with the pump after. That exit pipe down to the tank does not get all that hot in my experience. My oldest system -- I replaced the tank when I did some work on it when the indirect needed to be replaced .... it was 23 years old.
    Sorry, 'TAG'... I thought this was part of your conversation with 'Hot Rod'.

    I think I created a confusion. I would like to put the expansion tank fill point on the boiler return side of the LLH. The boiler pump would then be upstream of that and be 'pumping away'.

    If that doesn't 'fix' the point you were making, say again please.

    Mike
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
    Options
    Sorry Mike -- my comments may just be confusing your thread.

    I was responding to part of your post about J. Siegenthaler. My memory is he was a "pumping away" guy. With a cast boiler that would put the Spirovent and the pump on the output side (hot) of the boiler w/ the fill and expansion tank set up under the Spirovent. That's how I have always done it and the tanks don't seem to care. My point: I don't think the water temp is a worry for the tanks longevity -- also, with the tank out of the direct flow sitting down under the Spirovent it's not seeing full temp. It's in the proper place in relation to the pump.


    My other post was only because you mentioned using the Viessmann LLH -- so I referenced the Viessmann application guide showing the Spirovent on the output of the System side of the LLH. This was a little confusing for me when I did my first wall condensing boiler and LLH .... Where is the "pumping away" ?? With two pumps (boiler and system) and the boiler manufacturer having the boiler pump pumping into the boiler .... what's going on? Hot Rod is a wealth of knowledge and reading his information you see there is a couple placements that work. With all radiant the water temps in my systems are low so hunting for the hottest water is not straightforward ..... is the hottest the exit to the system or the return to the boiler? My brain says it's the output of the boiler .... but, no pump there to make it work.

    The magnet need is interesting. I have never used one and maybe Hot Rod can comment on why for the ECM. My last two systems are all radiant PEX with the only metal in the system being the copper piping and the manifolds .... tiny amount of SS boiler piping. NOt sure I have anything for the magnet. I'm going to do some maintenance in a couple weeks on another old system of mine that includes replacing the old pumps with Alpha's ... will I have a problem? That's got a lot of panel radiators



  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    The magnet need is interesting. I have never used one and maybe Hot Rod can comment on why for the ECM. My last two systems are all radiant PEX with the only metal in the system being the copper piping and the manifolds .... tiny amount of SS boiler piping. NOt sure I have anything for the magnet. I'm going to do some maintenance in a couple weeks on another old system of mine that includes replacing the old pumps with Alpha's ... will I have a problem? That's got a lot of panel radiators

    You best shot at air removal is at the hottest point in the system, generally right at the boiler supply connection, close as possible to the boiler.
    Next best is the lowest pressure, so high point vents work along with the central air removal device at the boiler. On chillers the air sep goes on the return pipe.

    If you have any ferrous materials in a hydronic system you can form magnetite. Systems with lots of O2 ingress (non barrier tube) form a lot of magnetite.

    It settles in low spots, but has become more of an issue with ECM circs as they have strong permanent magnets in the rotors. So they attract the magnetite between the rotor and rotor can and can jam or slow the circ.

    Remove a circ from the body, scratch the impeller or body. If the deposits stick to a magnet, you have magnetite. 100% O2 free systems is not so easy to obtain, so count on some magnetite formation with the steel in your system.

    It is a simple inexpensive option on most all dirt seps to add a magnet function, why not?

    Kevin sends me pics of old cast boiler removals to show how much can build up over 20- 30 years.

    The large circ was in our building in Milwaukee, it jammed after only 3 years with magnetite. Radiant slab, a few air handlers. Mostly Kitec PAP both in the slab and to the high temperature AHs.


    The higher the operating temperature of the system the higher the O2 ingress potential.

    High temperature rubber tube without O2 barriers is the toughest go.

    The fluid samples in the window are a favorite example from Heatmeister, see the sludge in the bottom of the sample jars?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
    Options
    Mike

    hot_rod said:

    I've got a question about LLH (this one) and both air and dirt separation. I've read about both in Idronics and from J. Siegenthaler.

    I'm wondering if a person wouldn't be better off putting both a separate microbubble air separator and a DirtMag in the system... that the Viessmann LLH won't do these two things as well as they need to be done.

    Mike

    I highly recommend efficient air removal with a micro bubble type air eliminator. You don't get a high efficiency system without high efficient air removal. Mag separation is also important with ECMs. Many Viessmann installers use Caleffi Sep 4 for these reasons.
    With an LLH and very low supply temp. water (+/- 88 F), where best for micro-bubble air eliminator and dirt-mag?

    For the system I have, which air eliminator and dirt-mag would you use?

    Mike
    'Hot Rod' said: "The hottest point in the piping, as soon as you come out of the boiler. You might go with something like a Discal DirtMag (#5461), to get complete protection."

    In Idronics #15 (https://caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_15_na.pdf) and in some of J.Siegenthaler's stuff there are directions of the "highest good' having a dirt separator at a system low point. I know an air separator should be at a point of highest temp.

    Is it that the dirt and magnetic particle collection aspect of a Discal-DirtMag doesn't matter where in the system it is?

    If there is a distinction worth having, it seems a DirtMag Pro at boiler-side LLH return (there are precursors to this item still out there in the supply chain... no "dual magnets")... then a Discal 551 (or ???) at nearest boiler supply (prior to DHW supply take off, preferably) maybe should be done. I don't know. Would you say, please?

    Mike

    PS... Thanks for the screenshots and post above... a nice hunk of awareness/education.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    yes there is some compromise with a 3 in 1 device. I put air removal as the priority especially on a new system you should not have major dirt issues

    The very best is a 4 in 1 separator as all the functions are in the best locations

    Im not sure what is inside that Viessmann to help with air or partial removal 

    Next best is the separate devices as you mentioned 
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
    Options
    TAG said:

    Sorry Mike -- my comments may just be confusing your thread.

    I was responding to part of your post about J. Siegenthaler. My memory is he was a "pumping away" guy. With a cast boiler that would put the Spirovent and the pump on the output side (hot) of the boiler w/ the fill and expansion tank set up under the Spirovent. That's how I have always done it and the tanks don't seem to care. My point: I don't think the water temp is a worry for the tanks longevity -- also, with the tank out of the direct flow sitting down under the Spirovent it's not seeing full temp. It's in the proper place in relation to the pump.

    This is where I got the idea: https://pmmag.com/articles/102435-john-siegenthaler-expansion-etiquette
    "3. Don’t overheat it. Whenever possible, avoid locating expansion tanks in close proximity to very hot water. When the tank’s shell is heated by heat migration (conduction and convection), the pressure of the air in the tank increases. All other factors being equal, this increases system pressure relative to a situation where the tank shell is cooler. It may lead to leakage of the pressure relief valve. It’s fine to locate the tank several feet away from where the tube from the tank connects to the system. Keep the tank lower than this connection point to reduce heat migration by convection."

    I know I don't understand this stuff well, so it's easy to 'assume'. When I read something like this I just try to stay away from it.
    TAG said:

    My other post was only because you mentioned using the Viessmann LLH -- so I referenced the Viessmann application guide showing the Spirovent on the output of the System side of the LLH. This was a little confusing for me when I did my first wall condensing boiler and LLH .... Where is the "pumping away" ?? With two pumps (boiler and system) and the boiler manufacturer having the boiler pump pumping into the boiler .... what's going on? Hot Rod is a wealth of knowledge and reading his information you see there is a couple placements that work. With all radiant the water temps in my systems are low so hunting for the hottest water is not straightforward ..... is the hottest the exit to the system or the return to the boiler? My brain says it's the output of the boiler .... but, no pump there to make it work.

    My brain says the same... hottest water at boiler output nearest boiler. In my instance seems would best be: boiler supply - air separator - DHW supply take-off point... in an ideal world. With this Mod-con, would pump into boiler and away from expansion tank on boiler return, ideally.

    Mike
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited November 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    yes there is some compromise with a 3 in 1 device. I put air removal as the priority especially on a new system you should not have major dirt issues

    The very best is a 4 in 1 separator as all the functions are in the best locations

    Im not sure what is inside that Viessmann to help with air or partial removal 

    Next best is the separate devices as you mentioned 

    There isn't anything inside the Viessmann 120/80 LLH other than a hole taking a thermowell and temperature probe and I don't think I'll be using it. Designer intended a thermowell a distance away from LLH system supply side for boiler computer water temp. sensing.

    This LLH is a newer version (#3) and it's temp. sensor is in the body. The supply inlet/outlet are at different heights (in high and out lower). The temperature probe is aligned with the outlet centerline. I believe the top fitting is for an air vent. I read somewhere recently LLH's are supposed to have an air vent at their top fitting but I see what I believe are up-to-date references not showing one at that point... and then some that do.

    I understand your air priority... was my guess due to ECM pumps and other steel in the system. I also think I see your point of... "this is a new system", and dirt free. Still, dirt needs to be dealt with and I don't know how well this LLH is going to take care of that (20 + years down the road). I feel like two pieces (if they can be fit in) is a righter way to look at it so will try to go that way. Maybe that is not correct... you'll say so if it isn't, right? :)

    It's gone late... good night...

    Mike