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Help with heat loss and finishing existing design details_1

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123468

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  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
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    Mike -- Think you may be reading too much. As to the heat factor on the tank .... he does say it's "fine" to mount it several feet from the system. I just went down and felt my old high temp system after it charged the indirect tank with +180 degree water -- there is no "heat" at the tank hanging under the Spirovent and the water feed valve. This is not the system in the earlier picture. Never had a pressure valve go off -- even with the higher temp systems,

    Can't tell you what the temps are on the two outputs of my LLH -- stopped going crazy with temp gauges. But it seems both work for the tank and air elimination.

    IMO for amateurs there a couple important items. Follow an established layout. Install enough valves to properly isolate the system so you can initially purge the system of air. Install a Spirovent type air eliminator to catch the air that will come out of the water when heated.
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
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    TAG said:

    Mike -- Think you may be reading too much. As to the heat factor on the tank .... he does say it's "fine" to mount it several feet from the system. I just went down and felt my old high temp system after it charged the indirect tank with +180 degree water -- there is no "heat" at the tank hanging under the Spirovent and the water feed valve. This is not the system in the earlier picture. Never had a pressure valve go off -- even with the higher temp systems,

    Can't tell you what the temps are on the two outputs of my LLH -- stopped going crazy with temp gauges. But it seems both work for the tank and air elimination.

    IMO for amateurs there a couple important items. Follow an established layout. Install enough valves to properly isolate the system so you can initially purge the system of air. Install a Spirovent type air eliminator to catch the air that will come out of the water when heated.

    I read to get an understanding. I have to understand things or I can't do them. It's the way I think.

    I did see the part about "fine at a few feet" from hot areas. To me, all of that J.Siegenthaler quote is simply an indication of design logic. I know system parts have ideal design criteria and I know "things" work at other than ideal. I'm in free-space right now with this "wall". I believe there is a lot of room for what needs to go in.

    Thank you for that last paragraph, 'TAG'. It's a nice, simple and straightforward design view.

    Mike
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
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    Mike. My line about reading too much was a bit of tung and cheek. I'm a nerd with this stuff and read manuals for enjoyment ... my early projects way over engineered. Example: I had temp gauges everywhere and too many secondary controls.

    What's "ideal" .... how do you determine the "extra" life an expansion tank will have at 180 degree water vs 200 that many systems have ..... will it last 50% longer ? How about at 160. What is it really seeing ... if they last 20 years on typical 200 degree systems. Do you worry about a $80 item ?

    Back 30 years ago when I did my first system there were fewer items available to make piping easier -- IE the pump fittings with built in valves for servicing or the one gizmo to connect the water feed and bladder tank that allowed an easy purge hook up. You had to build them and at the time I had no room for all the valves. It's nice to be able to switch out a pump with a simple close of two valves --- I also had more pumps on that system. In reality --- the system worked for 15 plus years w/o ever being touched. Yes - had to drain some of the close piping to get the pump out. The big thing was I had the fitting in place to quickly and properly purge all the air from the boiler and related pipes and I knew the Spirovent would do it's thing.

    Some items are very important .... you have to be able to purge the air or it's not going to work. The bladder tank has a couple of spots it can go and ends up being -- where does it fit. When I went to finally fire up the unit in my picture with 4 manifolds (two of them 40' from the boiler) and 30 odd loops of PEX ... being able to power purge everything in order made it very quick and easy. A bubble of air somewhere stopping flow ---far away is not fun.

  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
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    'TAG'...

    I don't want to over engineer. I want to put in things a person ought to put in and try to put them in in the best way for them to be put in.

    And I do understand things don't last forever and a part lasts as long as it does. I try to find good parts, then go from there.

    I roughly understand the importance of purging. I don't have a way of knowing where the system for this house is in the realm of "easy thru hard" to purge. It's yet another thing I'm going to have to find out about.

    I have an awareness that some things are more important than others... but I really don't know where the wiggle room is... maybe a few bits and pieces here and there, is all. I've been figuring on trying to go down the road of 'best practice', then calling it good enough.

    I'll be back at this tomorrow... I hope...

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    Pretty much all radiant manifolds have purging capability, so that handles all the tubing.

    The boiler room piping will purge through the air sep, once you are filled and have water to the manifolds. All that is left then is piping from boiler room to manifold location. that too can be done at the manifold.

    It's more about the purging procedure, getting air out as the system fills to the highest points.

    Purge the boiler at the relief valve as it fills, if it is the highest point in the mech room.

    The Webstone iso flanges have purge ports on some models also. And some installers add valves like this to make purging easy, a center shut off, two purge cocks, so you can purge either direction. Useful if you had long runs out to remote manifolds, or lots of ups and downs in the piping.

    The drawing you had, was purge friendly. I'm not sure if that is you final piping choice?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
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    'TAG'...

    I don't want to over engineer. I want to put in things a person ought to put in and try to put them in in the best way for them to be put in.

    And I do understand things don't last forever and a part lasts as long as it does. I try to find good parts, then go from there.

    I roughly understand the importance of purging. I don't have a way of knowing where the system for this house is in the realm of "easy thru hard" to purge. It's yet another thing I'm going to have to find out about.

    I have an awareness that some things are more important than others... but I really don't know where the wiggle room is... maybe a few bits and pieces here and there, is all. I've been figuring on trying to go down the road of 'best practice', then calling it good enough.

    I'll be back at this tomorrow... I hope...

    Mike

    All PEX is easier to purge vs having a mix of radiation like a big cast iron set of radiators on the third floor.


  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
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    hot_rod said:

    Pretty much all radiant manifolds have purging capability, so that handles all the tubing.

    The boiler room piping will purge through the air sep, once you are filled and have water to the manifolds. All that is left then is piping from boiler room to manifold location. that too can be done at the manifold.

    It's more about the purging procedure, getting air out as the system fills to the highest points.

    Purge the boiler at the relief valve as it fills, if it is the highest point in the mech room.

    The Webstone iso flanges have purge ports on some models also. And some installers add valves like this to make purging easy, a center shut off, two purge cocks, so you can purge either direction. Useful if you had long runs out to remote manifolds, or lots of ups and downs in the piping.

    The drawing you had, was purge friendly. I'm not sure if that is you final piping choice?

    Do you feel the need for all of those high point vents? .... seems like just another leak point. All the extra drain valves. I use one fill spot and one drain and power flush it all out .... then run though the zones. I can think of a time where I have had to have a drain on a manifold
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    Most manifolds have purge valves and vents, that should be all you need, with a Discal back at the boiler
    Piping could be this simple, Webstone valves in the returns if you want to purge the entire zones in the Mech room, no need to even purge at the manifolds this way

    Maybe a purge on the return piping from the indirect to ease start up
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
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    hot_rod said:

    Pretty much all radiant manifolds have purging capability, so that handles all the tubing.

    I think I should use series 663 or 668S1 manifolds (4-loop) and understand they have purge function. Thought the temp. gauge on 668S1 might be a good idea for remote placement, but don't know that. Your view?
    hot_rod said:

    The boiler room piping will purge through the air sep, once you are filled and have water to the manifolds. All that is left then is piping from boiler room to manifold location. that too can be done at the manifold.

    It's more about the purging procedure, getting air out as the system fills to the highest points.

    Purge the boiler at the relief valve as it fills, if it is the highest point in the mech room.

    The Webstone iso flanges have purge ports on some models also. And some installers add valves like this to make purging easy, a center shut off, two purge cocks, so you can purge either direction. Useful if you had long runs out to remote manifolds, or lots of ups and downs in the piping.

    The drawing you had, was purge friendly. I'm not sure if that is your final piping choice?

    What I've been trying to do the past few days is understand purging from the parts-needed and system placement point of view. Along with that comes some purging process discussions and views, which I've been trying to make sense of... a slow road.

    I think it's likely the top of the Loch. 085 will be the system high point. It doesn't look like Loch. recommends an air valve at the boiler top as some boiler manufacturers do. I've seen them added to relief valve piping at installation, though. Is that a thing that should be done?

    I guess it's possible the X-tank might be the system top, though. Would that, then, be similar to your relief valve description?

    This system is going to be much like the design we've "screenshot-ed" a number of times (with boiler to remote manifolds... "down-over-up"). Is there a 'better' place to put a purging valve system? I've seen both the Caleffi and Webstone units, along with make-up versions.

    Mike
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
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    TAG said:

    All PEX is easier to purge vs having a mix of radiation like a big cast iron set of radiators on the third floor.

    I can see that... =]

    Mike


  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    No harm in putting an air vent in the piping as it comes off the boiler, near the relief valve. I just hold open the relief valve on mine until water squirts out, a quick and easy way to assure the boiler is full and air free. Small air vents do not vent as quickly as you fill, so some air remains trapped in fire tube boilers. Opening the relief will purge as fast as you are filling, blues out dirt also.
    No need to have a vent on the expansion tank if it is a high point,

    These expansion tank mount arms are nice. Solidly mount  the tank, fill valve and and air vent in one spot with service valves for everything


    The two purge valves in the return from the zones in my drawing is all you need, really

    Purge the boiler as it fills, a washer hose on the valves I show until they run clear water and fire it up

    The S1 manifold has all the functioning also, probably more than you need or will use. If you never plan on adding actuators, a plain copper manifold is just fine. 

    Purging should be a one time event, don’t overdo the purge valves and locations, just more leak potential.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
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    hot_rod said:

    Most manifolds have purge valves and vents, that should be all you need, with a Discal back at the boiler
    Piping could be this simple, Webstone valves in the returns if you want to purge the entire zones in the Mech room, no need to even purge at the manifolds this way

    Maybe a purge on the return piping from the indirect to ease start up

    I have to go back to your piping drawing... linked it below. I came to understand I'm not getting it, 'Hot Rod'.
    * P3 has two "X", P4 has one. Is it one too many or one too few?
    * Is the "OR" a purge valve in either of "X" shown with P3 (so would be same for P4)? Or is it an "OR" for... "Webstone valves in the returns, etc."... as opposed to purging boiler... purging at manifolds... purging boiler room to manifold from manifolds?

    Sorry I'm being dim...

    Mike

    Link to piping diagram...
    https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/3g/bqgbhtz4hcjb.jpeg
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    X is just the universal symbol for a valve.

    You want a valve on both sides of all the pumps.

    So you probably want 8 of these Webstone pump valves 4- 3/4" size and 4- 1" size
    1" size for the boiler pump and indirect pump
    3/4" size for the zone pumps
    You can get them in solder, press or threaded depending on how you are piping the system.

    Then 2 of these purge/ shut off Webstone valves on the return from the two manifolds, 3/4" is fine. The X with the Or looking symbol in the drawing I attached above.

    That is all the valves you need to adequately purge the system.

    They may be sold in sets of two, when you order, be sure to check.

    IF you buy manifolds with all the bells and whistles you'll get two more purge valves and shut offs. Nice to have if you want to isolate just the manifold for service. I prefer to purge back at the boiler to eliminate any mess from spills, that is why I show the 2 Webstone purge valves.


    The green Axiom expansion tank mounting arm shown above has isolation valves for the tank and fill valve. So every serviceable component in your system has isolation service valves.

    Expansion tank hangs down off the front valve, Fill valve can go on top or bottom valve depends on where your water line is, one valve will be a spare
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
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    Mike -- Think like water. When I did my first system back in the every early 90's I was invited to a couple seminar/ talks -- one where the owner of this site and the author of a little book called "pumping away" was speaking. Cutting to the chase ... he was telling everyone to ditch the pump on the return side of the boiler where all the manufacturers had them at the time and move it to the outlet (the hot side) .... place a Spriovent behind that pump using the lower port of the Spirovent for the water feed and expansion tank. Then he added something else ..... a full port valve behind the Spirovent and behind that a "T" with a valve above. These two points only really being used for the initial fill. See the diagram posted on this site many times. It's showing two pumps using generic air separator and the correct pump term -- circulator.

    Closing the valve behind the Spirovent and opening the small valve above the "T" allows the incoming water from the fill when you manually open it to flush all the way around the system -- through the boiler and out a hose connected to the valve. That full port valve behind the Spriovent is never used again -- I hav used mine a couple times in 30 years when I have done maintenance on the system and air was reintroduced.

    If you look back at my diagram ..... I just created two pathways now that I am using a condensing boiler and and LLH -- the LLH needs to be isolated. I used the boiler drain for one pathway and added another on the return from the manifolds. You just open the feed and flush them out.
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
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    hot_rod said:


    X is just the universal symbol for a valve.

    You want a valve on both sides of all the pumps.

    Yes... the Webstone sweat isolator flange... pumps that are straight 12 diameters upstream and 5 diameters downstream.

    Does the 12/5 of straight include fitting length or only pipe?
    hot_rod said:


    So you probably want 8 of these Webstone pump valves 4- 3/4" size and 4- 1" size
    1" size for the boiler pump and indirect pump
    3/4" size for the zone pumps
    You can get them in solder, press or threaded depending on how you are piping the system.

    I tend towards sweat, but don't have a valid rationale for that. I've read about 'sweat vs press-fit'... cost of components... cost of installation... longevity (real world and estimated).

    I'm still with 1" all the way to manifolds... ???
    hot_rod said:


    Then 2 of these purge/ shut off Webstone valves on the return from the two manifolds, 3/4" is fine. The X with the Or looking symbol in the drawing I attached above.

    That is all the valves you need to adequately purge the system.

    Two Webstone 1" 50614 F.P ball valve with drain.
    hot_rod said:

    They may be sold in sets of two, when you order, be sure to check.

    At Supply House by the each... I'll pay attention if ordering other places. And thanks for that.
    hot_rod said:

    IF you buy manifolds with all the bells and whistles you'll get two more purge valves and shut offs. Nice to have if you want to isolate just the manifold for service. I prefer to purge back at the boiler to eliminate any mess from spills, that is why I show the 2 Webstone purge valves.

    I like the idea of doing all the purging in the boiler room.

    The zone with unequal loop lengths may need flow adjusting. The loop lengths might just work out, providing 'good' temps., but I don't have a way of knowing that.

    Given the run of 35-ish feet in utilidors, with most under the slab insulation, is having thermometers at the remote manifolds an advantage?

    There would need to be air vents at the manifolds in any event, correct?
    hot_rod said:

    The green Axiom expansion tank mounting arm shown above has isolation valves for the tank and fill valve. So every serviceable component in your system has isolation service valves.

    Expansion tank hangs down off the front valve, Fill valve can go on top or bottom valve depends on where your water line is, one valve will be a spare

    The Axiom looks like a handy unit. I don't intuitively see how it works, but I'll work on that.

    Mike

    PS... I'm going to have to go back to "one thing" (or maybe two) at a time... :)
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited November 2022
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    I'm hoping this is complete to day and time... maybe time stamping additions and edits will work
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    This is a parts list and it will evolve... things can change and they may change. I'll maybe edit and/or attach this post in posts down the road. Should have done this from the start.

    Oct. 7, 2022...

    SYSTEM
    * Lochinvar: WHB085 and SIT040
    * Caleffi 520 AngleMix... 520519A (3/4") (hot and cold run 32' to potable H2O distribution point)

    * Viessmann 120/80 LLH (air vent?)
    * 4 - Ward CI coupling... FBCO1x2 (1" x 2")
    * 4 - Elkhart 1" copper adaptor... 30342 (MNPT x C)

    * 3 - Grundfos 15-55F/LC... (1 Spare?)
    * 8 - Webstone 1" flange valves H-50404
    * 2 - Webstone 1" ProPak F.P. Ball Valve w/ drain H-50614 (maybe one more for DHW loop?)

    * 2 - Caleffi Z151000 (24V zone valve top) (1 Spare?)
    * 2 - Caleffi Z307537 (3-way ZV bottom - 3/4")
    * 2 - 1" Manifold... 6686D5S1A or 6636D5A... (w/ or w/o temp. gauge)

    * #30 X-Tank (Extrol EX-30)... (maybe Amtrol Therm-X-Span for make-up feed... T-5 or T-12)
    * Axiom HN-1 X-Tank bracket (are other types if needed) (air vent?)
    * Caleffi NA573

    * Caleffi DirtMag Pro... 546328AM... 1" sweat
    * Caleffi DisCal Air... 551... 552018A(C)... 1" sweat
    Note: Can replace above two with DisCal DirtMag 546196A if others won't fit well.

    CONTROL
    * Caleffi ZVR103 (zone valve controller)

    * 2 - Tekmar 521
    * 4 - Tekmar 79 (floor sensors)
    * Tekmar 70 (outdoor temp. sensor)

    SPARE PARTS
    * ???

    Note: I think there are more parts to come. An example would be the pic Hot Rod put up of his boiler bottom...
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    You could use 3/4 to both manifolds, you have a 3 and 4 gpm requirement as per the plan, easily handled by 3/4 copper

    If you were running 100' and had a lot of fittings, possibly 1" would be a better size. I think you mentioned 35' to the manifold and back? Come off the hydro sep 1" copper after the reducing coupling and use a
    1 X 3/4 X 3/4 tee and a 3/4 ell.

    If the manifolds were mounted above the boiler space on a second or third floor for example, then manifold air vents might see some use on start up. If they are close to the same elevation as the mechanical room, or the ceiling above the boiler not required.

    If you purge back at the Webstone valves, get all the air out on start up, the air purger at the boiler will handle any small air that comes around. You don't absolutely need manifold vents.

    Caleffi includes air vents on the S1 manifolds, not knowing where the manifolds get installed, or what type of purger if any is used at the boiler. In some cases the only air vent on a system is the vents on the manifold!

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
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    Sometimes life gets in the way of living...

    And I've also gotten bogged down in the fill/clean/purge - - manifold type - - pipe sizing of the last number of posts.

    Went back to the beginning of this thread and read through to here... mid page #5. Someone told me to not go past a thing I didn't understand. :)

    This is specific to the "bold"... designer having X-tank point at top of LLH. Also having air vent above the fill point. It's not like I HAVE to know this. I do understand the SOP of fill point at any in/out of LLH (return in/out better) and will follow that. Still...

    I've spent a little time in Idronics Mag., "PM", and "PM Engineer" on where does the expansion tank/fill point go. The designer has it below a vent at the top of the LLH (Viessmann 120/80)... https://pimmedia.winsupplyinc.com/pim/SPEC/112017/VIESSMANN_7179488_VIE7179488_SPEC.pdf)
    I don't know how that works... have not seen it done in that manner other places. Would you comment on that, please?

    It looks to me like the fill point placement makes the whole of the LLH the PONPC... already low flow/pressure and now more so. That that makes an ideal-as-possible air and dirt separator out of a unit that is not ideal as an air and dirt separator... but I don't know that is so, and I can't lay out anything but guessing to "prove it".

    Would someone tell me what this particular arrangement would be doing, please?

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    As far as I know there is nothing inside the Viessmann LLH? The Caleffi Sep 4 has a coalescing media inside the both separates dirt and air. The only air removal mechanism at play psi the volume of that device acting as a low velocity zone. Air rises up under that condition.

    I prefer the expansion tank at either of the bottom connections, as it is in a lower temperature fluid which may extend its life

    It will work at any point in the LLH, your choice 
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
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    The Viessmann LLH is empty --- lots of profit in that thing. Someone here makes them out of pipe and it was rather cool looking and basically the same thing. They lack of real air elimination (except the bleed valve) is why they have the Spirovent in the system. Personally I have never use the air vents .. plus you see them leaking on so many older systems -- why do you need them with the Spirovent?

    Think like the water. If you open the fill valve the water will flow in -- follow the water. See my little digram above for the pumping away module .... with the gate valve closed all the water flows around and out what is called the boiler drain at the top ... the force of the water pushes all the air out.

    It's the same thing with the addition of the LLH --- Valves on part of the system allow you to power flush the system and push out the air. You just work through each manifold and then isolate it with the valves. You can see on my system some of the extra valves to do this

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 8,063
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    I have been following this discussion since July and I was just wondering... Has this project been started? What stage of the project are you in? How soon to completion? Is there even a job site anywhere... yet?

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
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    I have been following this discussion since July and I was just wondering... Has this project been started? What stage of the project are you in? How soon to completion? Is there even a job site anywhere... yet?

    Did you mean house or hydronic project? Yes on one. No on two (except the tubes and a bathtub needing to be in to stucco the interior... which then implies door/window finish trim and finish flooring to stucco to, also).

    Mike

  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
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    There are things on this thread page that are changes, and they are mixed in with 'how to's' and 'how works'. I have to understand this whole thing, but I can't talk or ask about all of it at the same time.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Two Zones (two manifolds):
    #1 at 238.5' per loop (4)... +/- 2.5 feet... (Wirsbo original = 220' - 257' min/max)
    #2 at 208.75' per loop (4)... +/- 5.0 feet... (Wirsbo original = 133' - 286' min/max)

    Two thermostats:
    #1 - 1/3 from east, on west facing 4' alcove wall... north side of solar gain space... no sun or other influences
    #2 - Near SW corner 15' square primary bedroom in NE corner of house... near door to hall and opening to back of south 1/2.

    With finished floor as 'zero'... the top manifold tubes could be +36". The loops are about -14" to -18". Top of boiler (31" ht.) in 100.5" room maybe as much as 88" (puts screen center-line at 60"). Max. 106" top to bottom... Boiler top to manifold top 52" (58" if top manifold only 30" ht.).
    -------------------------------------

    It seems neither set of loops need flow control.

    Two things on that:

    1.
    _ Is having thermometers at remote manifolds valuable with this control system?
    _ And/or having any of... manifold supply shutoff... individual loop shut off... air vent... purge/drain valve... a better way to go?

    2.
    Excepting (and that's a 'maybe') a bedroom or bathroom may want to be cooler/warmer.
    _ That begs the question... given the house equalizes by nature (constant circulation plus natural and induced convective air flow)... could flow control make more than a +/- 1 or 2 degree difference, even with door closing?

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    You want a wall/ air sensing t stats in rooms for both zone. The room that would be the most used perhaps for comfort control. Really in your system the thermostat acts as a high limit to turn the zone off when it gets to desired temperature, to prevent temperature over shoot.

    Floor sensors could be used in addition for even more control input.. If for example you want to maintain a floor temperature regardless of room ambient.

    At the manifolds you at least want valves on every loop. If ever you want to send more of less flow to a particular loop. Or if a loop needs to be worked on for a leak maybe, you isolate only that loop. It depends on how the loops were installed as far as how much you could balance off a room. That is done at the tubing design and layout part of the job. I think that ship has sailed?

    I'm not sure what you mean by a thermostat at the manifold? Room t-stats go in the room. Floor stats go anywhere but the sensor embeds inn the floor. Or below it.

    If you use a dual stat air and floor sensing, it still needs to be in the room to sense ambient temperature. It's not so easy to use just floor sensors to control radiant. the space could be too cold or hot without that input.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
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    hot_rod said:

    I'm not sure what you mean by a thermostat at the manifold? Room t-stats go in the room. Floor stats go anywhere but the sensor embeds in the floor, or below it.

    I don't know why I keep saying thermostat when I mean thermometer. I catch it sometimes and sometimes I don't.
    So here is this part again...

    1.
    _ Is having thermometers at remote manifolds valuable with this control system?
    _ And/or having any of... manifold supply shutoff... individual loop shut off... air vent... purge/drain valve... a better way to go?

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
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    Think of your system as a new car or truck. Do you want heated  seats, rear camera, proximity sensors, digital mirrors, 8” computer screen, self dimming lights, rain enabled wipers, remote start, etc, etc

    Same with a hydronic system. You could add gauges and sensors, flow meters in every pipe if you need or want that much information and control. Do you?
    A boiler,pump air purger and expansion tank is all you really  need to get heat transferring. What you add beyond that give you more protection, information, service convince, etc

    if you had 20 loops of different lengths then manifold flow meters could be useful. If the floor and home is comfortable do you care what the temperature across the manifold is, you could read that at the boiler piping or a handheld infrared thermometer.
    Now if $$ is no object😉, load it up with options. We have a lot to sell you.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    You want a wall/ air sensing t stats in rooms for both zone. The room that would be the most used perhaps for comfort control. Really in your system the thermostat acts as a high limit to turn the zone off when it gets to desired temperature, to prevent temperature over shoot.

    Floor sensors could be used in addition for even more control input.. If for example you want to maintain a floor temperature regardless of room ambient.

    If you use a dual stat air and floor sensing, it still needs to be in the room to sense ambient temperature. It's not so easy to use just floor sensors to control radiant. the space could be too cold or hot without that input.

    I'm supposed to know better... just because I've got something hard in my head doesn't mean it's 'info du jour' for everyone... sorry 'Hot Rod'.

    The thermostat positions (tekmar 521 -- air and floor sensing) with dual floor sensors (tekmar 79) are positioned in stone.

    I appreciate hearing about the air, floor, air & floor sensing for control. I've got a little document on control from your posts here and earlier in the thread, plus other stuff I've run into on 'The Wall'. I just have to stay away from control for now.

    Mike
  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
    edited October 2022
    Options
    Most of the manifolds today have all the bells and whistles standard -- all except the control heads. They come with the main valves and temp gauges -- most have the flow meters and adjusters. The loops don't have to be exact -- I have 11 loops of 3/8 on one manifold feeding plates to one big room. My goal was keeping them under 170'. There is no way to match everything perfectly ... sometimes you have a couple shorter ones and you can always dial them down with the flow controls on the manifolds if you have to. Most times it's not a problem. That's why early on in this thread I said you can go over board with design thought and parts trying for perfection when perfection is not needed ..... It's hot water

    Supply house sells a nice Honeywell duel thermostat (floor and room ) for around $80 -- they also sell the sensor w/ wire separately for $5 so you can buy them and install -- just in case. My first Warm-board set up I ran a bunch of them in different rooms just in case I had to control the room for some reason. The sensor goes to a point on the floor wired back to a logical thermostat location in the room and then you run a 4 wire from that same location back to the mechanical room. I had them marked and buried when it was drywalled ... I only need one. Also -- to control the zone .... you need the heads on the manifolds or full zone valve controlled manifolds. More money and parts ...

    On that 11 loop manifold above I felt sure I would need that controled so I ran the wires and installed the zone vale and thermostat ... it's not needed. Wasted $$. As hotrod said .... they really work as high limits most of the time because the boiler is sending heat to the spaces based on ODR.

    In my new project part of the lowest level was turned into living space so we dug out and poured a new radiant slab. 8 loops for 1000sf .... 1/2 the slab is under the upper floors and the other is out in an open glass area with steps. I have a 8 loop manifold for the slab's pex loops and I did assume we would need to control one side or the other .... since I used one temp water for the whole house based on what the Warm-board needed my thought was the slab floor would get too hot. Also worried about solar gain in the open part. I ran two thermostat setups (one for each space) with slab sensors back to the manifold. Now going on third heat season and they have not been needed. The slab floor is putting out a bit more heat ...but, it's nice and not a problem. Taking that a bit further -- what did it cost in parts to make that a possibility? Since I had two "zones" that I had to control on that manifold. To do both I needed 8 control heads -- one for each loop. Those control heads are not cheap (at least $80) ... that adds up. In my case I bought the Cross Manifolds the have the capability built in -- but they are about the same cost as buying a manifold and all the heads. $1k in parts to zone the slab that so far has not been needed?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options

    hot_rod said:

    You want a wall/ air sensing t stats in rooms for both zone. The room that would be the most used perhaps for comfort control. Really in your system the thermostat acts as a high limit to turn the zone off when it gets to desired temperature, to prevent temperature over shoot.

    Floor sensors could be used in addition for even more control input.. If for example you want to maintain a floor temperature regardless of room ambient.

    If you use a dual stat air and floor sensing, it still needs to be in the room to sense ambient temperature. It's not so easy to use just floor sensors to control radiant. the space could be too cold or hot without that input.

    I'm supposed to know better... just because I've got something hard in my head doesn't mean it's 'info du jour' for everyone... sorry 'Hot Rod'.

    The thermostat positions (tekmar 521 -- air and floor sensing) with dual floor sensors (tekmar 79) are positioned in stone.

    I appreciate hearing about the air, floor, air & floor sensing for control. I've got a little document on control from your posts here and earlier in the thread, plus other stuff I've run into on 'The Wall'. I just have to stay away from control for now.

    Mike
    The main thing is planning on how or where floor sensors will locate. You may need to run some capped conduit if they need to be above a finished space. The stat will work without the floor sensor if you want to run for a few heating months and decide about floor sensor placement.

    In some cases the floor sensor may get placed in a room with solar gain to prevent over heating. In some cases I use them in bathrooms where I want floor heating, possibly all summer.

    Often it is best to live in the home through a heating season to fine tune, same for ODR settings. It is hard to predict how each home responds to heating, occupancy load, life styles, insulation efficiency, internal gains, etc.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    hot_rod said:

    You want a wall/ air sensing t stats in rooms for both zone. The room that would be the most used perhaps for comfort control. Really in your system the thermostat acts as a high limit to turn the zone off when it gets to desired temperature, to prevent temperature over shoot.

    Floor sensors could be used in addition for even more control input.. If for example you want to maintain a floor temperature regardless of room ambient.

    If you use a dual stat air and floor sensing, it still needs to be in the room to sense ambient temperature. It's not so easy to use just floor sensors to control radiant. the space could be too cold or hot without that input.

    I'm supposed to know better... just because I've got something hard in my head doesn't mean it's 'info du jour' for everyone... sorry 'Hot Rod'.

    The thermostat positions (tekmar 521 -- air and floor sensing) with dual floor sensors (tekmar 79) are positioned in stone.

    I appreciate hearing about the air, floor, air & floor sensing for control. I've got a little document on control from your posts here and earlier in the thread, plus other stuff I've run into on 'The Wall'. I just have to stay away from control for now.

    Mike
    The main thing is planning on how or where floor sensors will locate. You may need to run some capped conduit if they need to be above a finished space. The stat will work without the floor sensor if you want to run for a few heating months and decide about floor sensor placement.

    In some cases the floor sensor may get placed in a room with solar gain to prevent over heating. In some cases I use them in bathrooms where I want floor heating, possibly all summer.

    Often it is best to live in the home through a heating season to fine tune, same for ODR settings. It is hard to predict how each home responds to heating, occupancy load, life styles, insulation efficiency, internal gains, etc
    The designer and I "figured out" where the floor sensors should go. Was based on heating season sun pattern in solar gain space (S-1/2) with known furniture placement and run with the idea of putting one sensor in a sunnier area and one in an open, but no-sun, area. They have been in for a few years already. The N-1/2 thermostat has a floor sensor in a central, open area of each bedroom... at least they will show what kinds of differences there are in the water temp (same). vs floor temp in those two areas.

    The designer's idea of a thermostat w/ air sensor + 2 floor sensors was as indoor data feedback/control/"limiting" of the ODR driven water temp.

    Designer also said nearly the same as you... Pick a room temp. setting and try to leave it there... spend a heating season working on ODR slope to get it right... make very small tweaks, then wait and feel it out for a number of days before tweaking again... change one thing at a time... don't use set back... leave "boost" (and other boiler abilities like it) out of the equation... keep really good notes. I figure it is more complex than that but I don't understand how it is.

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    I think of radiant floors as 3 types,
    Hgh mass, 4" or thicker slabs
    Medium mass 1-1/2" thin pours
    Low mass or dry systems under or above floor either transfer plates or fins.

    Each behave differently. In milder climates with large frequent temperature swings the dry system react quickly. A thick slab, especially one that has excessively high SWT can be a monster to control.

    It really takes the occupants input and willingness, persistence to make small adjustments to end up with a fine tuned comfortable efficient system. You strike me as that type? :wink:
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
    Options
    TAG said:

    Most of the manifolds today have all the bells and whistles standard -- all except the control heads. They come with the main valves and temp gauges -- most have the flow meters and adjusters. The loops don't have to be exact -- I have 11 loops of 3/8 on one manifold feeding plates to one big room. My goal was keeping them under 170'. There is no way to match everything perfectly ... sometimes you have a couple shorter ones and you can always dial them down with the flow controls on the manifolds if you have to. Most times it's not a problem. That's why early on in this thread I said you can go over board with design thought and parts trying for perfection when perfection is not needed ..... It's hot water

    Supply house sells a nice Honeywell duel thermostat (floor and room ) for around $80 -- they also sell the sensor w/ wire separately for $5 so you can buy them and install -- just in case. My first Warm-board set up I ran a bunch of them in different rooms just in case I had to control the room for some reason. The sensor goes to a point on the floor wired back to a logical thermostat location in the room and then you run a 4 wire from that same location back to the mechanical room. I had them marked and buried when it was drywalled ... I only need one. Also -- to control the zone .... you need the heads on the manifolds or full zone valve controlled manifolds. More money and parts ...

    On that 11 loop manifold above I felt sure I would need that controled so I ran the wires and installed the zone vale and thermostat ... it's not needed. Wasted $$. As hotrod said .... they really work as high limits most of the time because the boiler is sending heat to the spaces based on ODR.

    In my new project part of the lowest level was turned into living space so we dug out and poured a new radiant slab. 8 loops for 1000sf .... 1/2 the slab is under the upper floors and the other is out in an open glass area with steps. I have a 8 loop manifold for the slab's pex loops and I did assume we would need to control one side or the other .... since I used one temp water for the whole house based on what the Warm-board needed my thought was the slab floor would get too hot. Also worried about solar gain in the open part. I ran two thermostat setups (one for each space) with slab sensors back to the manifold. Now going on third heat season and they have not been needed. The slab floor is putting out a bit more heat ...but, it's nice and not a problem. Taking that a bit further -- what did it cost in parts to make that a possibility? Since I had two "zones" that I had to control on that manifold. To do both I needed 8 control heads -- one for each loop. Those control heads are not cheap (at least $80) ... that adds up. In my case I bought the Cross Manifolds the have the capability built in -- but they are about the same cost as buying a manifold and all the heads. $1k in parts to zone the slab that so far has not been needed ?

    Thank you for all of that, 'TAG'. It is really helpful for me in understanding things to hear different people on the same topic.

    I've always felt this house might kind of just take care of itself. I know from reading 'The Wall' and J.Siegenthaler that multiple spaces with varying, significant, 'wanted-temp.' differences is a tough row to hoe... takes planning, detail, multiple-multiple components and tricks. So the opposite of that ought to be true... like the two of you have said.

    Anyhow... thank you again.

    Mike

  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
    Options
    'Hot Rod' mentioned using copper tube manifolds. And the minimum needed at each of two pairs was a mini ball valve on each loop (4 loops x 2 for S & R... x 2 manifolds for 16)... with none of...main shut offs, thermometers, air vents, purge/fill valves, flow meters... needed.

    I've looked at Watts, Uponor, Sioux Chief, Alberta Custom Tee. There are a number of different ways of approaching this.

    Buy "custom" tube (or two) with 1/2" nipples... add mini ball valves, fittings, brackets, etc. for PEX-A... OR... buy 4 pcs. of 4-outlet manifold with mini ball valves and add PEX fittings, etc... OR... call a company and order the four tubes "custom" and add on less (or maybe nothing).

    The way it looks is, by the time a person gets all the separate piece costs put together (plus labor amounts, where and as pertinent), a person would be in the neighborhood of 2 x Caleffi 1" 663 w/ their needed 680's.

    I figure I'm not looking where I should be looking to make copper manifolds a very good $$$ choice. Would someone get me pointed better, please?

    Mike

    Edit: PEX B = floor loops... PEX A for run to manifold (I think)... hot/cold potable utilidor runs and hook ups PEX A

  • TAG
    TAG Member Posts: 755
    edited October 2022
    Options
    Mike --- The complete manifolds are IMO the way to go. Pick one. Over the years I have used brass/plastic/ SS and early on some simple ones made up of copper. Today the parts cost way more than the whole. Buy one complete and ready to go

    The Honeywell T6 pro hydronic programable thermostat is now $100 (inflation!) ... comes with sensor. You can buy sensor separately if you want to pre-wire .. end up with extras but $100 adds up if you end up nothing needing.

    While I have not done a lot of temp probing on this I'm not sure how important the sensor placement is for a slab .... hot rod may have done some work on this but my guess is room thermostat is better at catching the solar gain vs the sun heating one spot of the slab. And --you planning and getting the sensor at that exact spot. At least that's my observation. For the wood floors I have the sensor even spaced in the middle between a tube run .... for slabs I have had good luck with both the buried tube way and also drilling a hole in an interior wall plate and dropping in the sensor.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options

    'Hot Rod' mentioned using copper tube manifolds. And the minimum needed at each of two pairs was a mini ball valve on each loop (4 loops x 2 for S & R... x 2 manifolds for 16)... with none of...main shut offs, thermometers, air vents, purge/fill valves, flow meters... needed.

    I've looked at Watts, Uponor, Sioux Chief, Alberta Custom Tee. There are a number of different ways of approaching this.

    Buy "custom" tube (or two) with 1/2" nipples... add mini ball valves, fittings, brackets, etc. for PEX-A... OR... buy 4 pcs. of 4-outlet manifold with mini ball valves and add PEX fittings, etc... OR... call a company and order the four tubes "custom" and add on less (or maybe nothing).

    The way it looks is, by the time a person gets all the separate piece costs put together (plus labor amounts, where and as pertinent), a person would be in the neighborhood of 2 x Caleffi 1" 663 w/ their needed 680's.

    I figure I'm not looking where I should be looking to make copper manifolds a very good $$$ choice. Would someone get me pointed better, please?

    Mike

    I mostly used copper on snowmelt and large commercial. I bought some with valves and adapters on the valves, ready to go. Watts had custom cut in 24 branches the you cut and cap for the number of branches you needed.
    Wholesalers kept a good assortment on the shelves back in the radiant hey days

    If you don't need actuators they work fine. They are nice for panel radiator homerun manifolds also.

    Watts would build any configuration or combination you wanted. Trunk size, branch size, OC spacing valves, etc. When they closed their Missouri operation I think Sioux Chief bought those large T-Drill and end spinner machines, and the pex extruders, moved them to Peculiar MO.

    Installers like the Caleffi S1 for the mounting ease. Screw it to the wall and make the connections. Easy to remove a tube also with the compression connections.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    GGross
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    Installers like the Caleffi S1 for the mounting ease. Screw it to the wall and make the connections. Easy to remove a tube also with the compression connections.

    Who makes the manifold you showed the screenshot of?
    https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/zy/lavg2sawe97v.png

    I spent a lot of the day looking at copper manifolds and parts and etc. I see the point. I know I could get it done and spend some amount less.

    I'm starting to think getting Caleffi 1" 663 is what I ought to do. More money than well made copper manifolds, but I'd live and still be able to buy some beer.

    In some ways, it's too bad Caleffi doesn't offer the 663 manifold two ways... with or without the air vent and purge/fill valve. I suppose no one would want the 'without'... heated seats, you know.

    ** Question...

    My remote manifold areas have plenty of depth (2x8 +), also good height (asked the plumbers what they wanted). The left/right is plenty but the PEX comes up near-ish a manifold end. I've been looking around and barely finding a 90 deg. fitting for a Caleffi 1". I am assuming the manifold is FNPT. I can't find a designation on the tech.sheet.
    https://caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/01170_na_0.pdf

    Mike
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    That is a BSP tailpiece assembled with an o-ring and Loctite, into the manifold trunk. So not much can be done to make an ell there. We assemble and pressure test the manifolds in Milwaukee and discourage field mods.

    Can you move the pex supply over one stud space use a pex ell?

    We offered a no frills manifold but not many sales so they went away. If you look at our International catalog there are 8 pages of manifolds!

    The copper manifold I attached is right off the Watts website. It may be a special order unless you search wholesalers inventory.

    https://www.watts.com/products/plumbing-flow-control-solutions/pex-plumbing-radiant-heating-systems/manifolds-for-pex-plumbing-radiant-heating-systems?Filters=[{Name:"TrunkDiameter",Values:["1 IN"]}]&Page=0
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited November 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    That is a BSP tailpiece assembled with an o-ring and Loctite, into the manifold trunk. So not much can be done to make an ell there. We assemble and pressure test the manifolds in Milwaukee and discourage field mods.

    Idronics #26... BSPP and BSPT. Funny how a person puts 'Caleffi' in front of some arkane hydronic related search term and an Idronics issue number pops up.
    hot_rod said:

    Can you move the pex supply over one stud space use a pex ell?

    Both S & R utilidors are immovable... poured into the slab with the tubes. One manifold has a 23+" space... S & R utilidors left... loops right... a closet end wall. Other manifold is 20" space... loops left... S & R utilidors right.
    hot_rod said:

    We offered a no frills manifold but not many sales so they went away. If you look at our International catalog there are 8 pages of manifolds!

    Have you heard of people getting European parts shipped in? I ran into the international catalog a few days ago. It's enormous!
    hot_rod said:

    The copper manifold I attached is right off the Watts website. It may be a special order unless you search wholesalers inventory.

    I looked at your Watts manifold and one the same with "C" end instead of PEX fitting... order # 0121104... here: (putting that number in 'find' pops it right up) https://watts.com/dfsmedia/0533dbba17714b1ab581ab07a4cbb521/27520-source/pl-waterpex-2219 They are a little dear. Ran into Sioux Chief site for Watts cross reference numbers and they have an equivalent to the part number I listed... '672XGV0420'. Do you feel Sioux Chief makes quality equipment?

    And while I'm on the subject, do you know who Sioux Chief's "Sister Company" is?
    hot_rod said:
    Mike

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,254
    Options
    I know of folks ordering Caleffi from online stores in the UK. Everything will be metric threads, metric size copper tube. The US and Canada are the only markets that get NPT. Usually done with adapters and tailpieces.

    The Ismert family from the KC area own Sioux Chief still, as far as I know. They bought a drainage company a few years back, they have, or had a division that builds for the box stores.
    It's not unusual for a manufacturer to have an OEM division that builds products for other brands. Those Watts manifolds may come from the Sioux Chief plant?

    Alberta T-Drill also makes copper manifolds.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike Krall
    Mike Krall Member Posts: 140
    edited October 2022
    Options
    hot_rod said:

    I know of folks ordering Caleffi from online stores in the UK. Everything will be metric threads, metric size copper tube. The US and Canada are the only markets that get NPT. Usually done with adapters and tailpieces.

    The Ismert family from the KC area own Sioux Chief still, as far as I know. They bought a drainage company a few years back, they have, or had a division that builds for the box stores.
    It's not unusual for a manufacturer to have an OEM division that builds products for other brands. Those Watts manifolds may come from the Sioux Chief plant?

    Alberta T-Drill also makes copper manifolds.

    I got lucky today. Had two very worthwhile phone conversations... Caleffi (Matt)... Alberta Custom Tee (???).

    Matt got me lined out on 663 manifold connections, etc., and how to chase down turning it 90 deg via nearest Caleffi... TM Sales in Denver.

    Alberta Custom Tee (AKA 'Custom Tee' and 'ACPP') gave me all sorts of help and information. Their biggest American supplier is Willow Springs SRV ( https://willowsra.com/ ). The catalog link on home page gets a person a 236 page browser catalog a person has to sift through one page at a time... coming and going... lots of clicking. When the catalog finishes loading there is a link to an odd sort of customized .pdf catalog... takes a while to load, but is a lot easier to get around in than the browser form. Alberta also said I should ask for Al or Paul because they are very knowledgeable about their stuff.

    Anyhow... thanks for continuing to point me towards Alberta Custom Tee, 'Hot Rod'. It was a real treat yapping with them. I'm not there yet with the manifold figuring, but I'm a lot less going in circles than I was.

    I checked the Willow Springs catalog link below twice. It works.

    Mike

    https://wixlabs-pdf-dev.appspot.com/assets/pdfjs/web/viewer.html?file=%2Fpdfproxy%3Finstance%3DZ6uZCZr4E8zHXaBDXQqR2Ou1I4s7AV9qMX-wDLWtKFI.eyJpbnN0YW5jZUlkIjoiNjExMzU1MmItYmI1Ny00MTBlLWExMjAtNmM1ZjI2ZDgyMzM1IiwiYXBwRGVmSWQiOiIxM2VlMTBhMy1lY2I5LTdlZmYtNDI5OC1kMmY5ZjM0YWNmMGQiLCJtZXRhU2l0ZUlkIjoiZDRjNDVlYzMtZWJlMC00OWU5LWI1ZDctY2I2NWI2ZDI2MzY1Iiwic2lnbkRhdGUiOiIyMDIyLTEwLTI0VDIxOjUxOjM0Ljg4M1oiLCJkZW1vTW9kZSI6ZmFsc2UsImFpZCI6ImM2OTU1MzM3LTFjMjUtNDU0Yy05MDRjLTg5NjIyN2RiMzNkNyIsImJpVG9rZW4iOiJiNWQ3MGJlOC01MGI3LTA4ZTctMTRmNy1hNzNhOTAwYTQwNTAiLCJzaXRlT3duZXJJZCI6IjRhNmQ4Y2VjLTA2NjQtNDJiZS04NTQzLWVkMTczN2MwNzM5NyJ9%26compId%3Dcomp-k84ifqv3%26url%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdocs.wixstatic.com%2Fugd%2F4e3f74_ec5f18b730f44e7989ca615028590024.pdf#page=1&links=true&originalFileName=WSDCatalog26&locale=en&allowDownload=true&allowPrinting=true