New fumes smell

EdTheHeaterMan

I have had similar situations in my career. If there is a chimney that is too high for the ladders I already own, then I am not interested in working on that chimney. @Shalldierks chimney is clearly one of those chimneys. I would recommend a professional chimney contractor for inspection and cleaning of that chimney. That said, There was a low cost chimney man in my area that would put a brush down the chimney and vacuum out the debris at the bottom for a very low price. (I found out he was getting less and less business so he dropped his business liability insurance.) I realized he was not well educated in the chimney business and could not diagnose and solve even basic problems. But if all that was needed was to get the soot out of a chimney, Then he was the lowest cost for the service needed. There were 2 other professional chimney sweeps that could solve problems. I would recommend that my customer in the same situation as @Shalldierks look for a pro in the yellow pages (remember the Yellowpages?)

Since I had no control over the people that a particular chimney sweep might send to a customer, I never gave a personal recommendation. If there was a problem with the end result, Like @Shalldierks, I would return to set up the oil burner, and found the problem was not resolved, I would sometimes call the sometimes call the chimney contractor for the customer. The first question I would ask is "I'm having a problem with a chimney, Do you guarantee your work?" At some point, the boss or manager might get on the phone. I then would verify that they had some kind of guarantee. Then I would give them the invoice number of the work they did for our mutual customer. At that point, I as a professional, would describe the problem with insufficient draft and ask if the amount the customer already spent on the unsolved problem would be applied to the actual repair? Usually the answer was YES. Eventually the people at the chimney contractors in the area got to know me. Then the problems were more easily resolved.

I might recommend the @Shalldierks might ask the chimney contractor if they guarantee their work. Then move on from there. I am a firm believer that you should not pay for something that does not work. and you don't pay for the same thing twice.

One other observation. Some have already said to open the clean-out door and use a mirror to look up. I just wonder if you understand the concept. Here is an illustration that may make it more clear

mattmia2

Since there is a liner with something like this at the breech you may not be able to see up the liner from the cleanout:

EdTheHeaterMan

If this is the case, then you would need to look from the vent connector opening, the next time that gets opened up.

It sounds like you still have a blockage or perhaps a downdraft situation.

A good chimney contractor will understand the causes of poor draft and should be able to find and correct them.
I remember a customer that had a tree growing next to the chimney, For 30 years they never had a problem with the chimney, But 30 years ago that tree was only 6 feet tall. 30 years later, that tree is 10 feet higher than the chimney. That caused a Down-draft condition when the wind came from the south east. The prevailing wind was north west in the area. So the problem never presented when the repair companies were there. Took me 2 years to find it. But I remember that case and look at trees near chimneys all the time. Force of habit now.

Mr.Ed

Shalldierks

ratio said:

The first pic is a turbulator in the boiler. The last pic still shows some straw from a bird's nest. I'm guessing the chimney's not too clear yet. Be interesting to see what's hiding under the cleanout (square door under the breaching). Not quite sure what the hose-clamp-looking thingie in the second pic (& last two), but I'm not an oil guy.

I went and checked out the straw in the picture. I had to get a tool because I was too short to reach the straw. All I got out were 4 or 5 pieces of Straw. I dug around a bit more but nothing.

It is colder out today and we fired it up to take the chill out of the house (I am partially disabled and the issues going from room to room with some very cold and some warm from space heaters could land me in the hospital). The smell was not nearly as bad. The furnace went through 3 cycles on/off and then the smell started again so we shut it down.
Still nothing from the original chimney guy but it was Easter. I am going to take tomorrow off and call around to see what I can get in the way of assistance with the chimney.

Again, thank you everyone for your help. We greatly appreciate it.

Sheila

captainco

Captainco,
I want to be certain I understand your position on combustion air and boiler manufacturers installation instructions that include detailed directions to determine the correct amount of air for combustion & ventilation.
Manufacturers refer to NFPA 31; are you not in agreement?

Read the attached and tell me what you think the industry thinks of Code approved combustion air. Did you know that one of the openings was an extra flue? I have seen rooftops that didn't have adequate combustion air at the burners. No the heat exchangers were not dirty and the inducer fans were running just fine.
In class I show a water heater in an older leaky house that had zero draft and is spilling. It is in a basement and open two car garage (garage used for workshop) 20 feet by 50 feet and 7 foot ceiling. 20 X 50 X 7 = 7000 cu.ft. A 40,000 btu water heater according to Code requires 40 X 50 = 1000 cu.ft. of combustion air. We opened a garage door 20' wide, 5' open and then water heater had a draft of -.06"w.c. Was this because of a lack of air or a misdirection of air in a leaky house?

What controls combustion air? Draft!! Draft is created in the flue by pressure and temperature difference and nothing else. On oil there should be plenty of pressure because to the burner fan and I would certainly think there is plenty of heat in the flue. As long as the burner is running there should be plenty of combustion air to the burner. However, if the flue is restricted or undersized the gases cannot completely escape. They will back up and cause spillage. That can be determine by a draft test while operating and then watching what happens to the draft when the burner shuts off. The draft will increase. If it is a negative pressure problem the draft will drop.

Hot air displaces cold air. The colder the air, the heavier the air and the higher the displacement. Why do tall flue have more draft than short flues. Because they contain more cold air to displace the hot air. It has nothing to do with the temperature of the flue material. In fact if the flue material gets warmer, draft will actually decrease because the cold air gets warmer. Ever notice how much lower draft is in the summer when flues are warm?

If you read the attached you will see that I do not approve of Code recommended combustion air, other than controlled combustion air, not random selection. I think we spend almost 2 hours in class covering this misunderstood application.

Shalldierks

@EdTheHeaterMan What you put in was very informative. I did try the mirror, Unfortunately I'm a short person and have short arms. I couldn't reach and if I thought I got the mirror in far enough I couldn't see because of the position I was in. The chimney person we brought in to clean the chimney did the mirror test and showed my husband that they could see to the cap. I wanted to look for myself.
I never asked the chimney guy if his work is guaranteed. Never too late to try! We called him on Saturday but it is Easter and we didn't do the call as an emergency. Either myself or my husband will be calling in the morning first thing.
Thank you so much!
Sheila

pedmec

i believe your lacking combustion air which is why you smelled it after the third cycle. by that time you have very little oxygen in your basement and your basement has become negative pressure zone. if your basement becomes a negative pressure zone then you will be spill flue gases out of your chimney or even the damper. if i remember correctly by the time the third cycle fired up you were choking and eyes started watering and you were in the boiler room. sounds like your spilling from draft damper but i would think that tech would pick that up easily. run boiler with either windows or doors open to outside to allow for air into basement for a quick test. kind of rudimentary test but will allow combustion air into house. anything to get air combustion air into the boiler room.
as everyone has said you need to have a complete combustion analyst done, which include a draft test for proper set up of oil burner.

pecmsg

STEVEusaPA said:

pecmsg said:

There business IS selling oil after all!

Do you honestly think their running high draft on all their furnaces, to eek out a few percent of increased oil usage, or do you think they're just ignorant or uniformed?
Running the systems poorly and having customers lose confidence in oil & switch to gas would cost them way more in profit.

If they sell an extra gal a day per customer and they just don't want to spend time and money on training.

captainco

I have been on many jobs where a contractor guessed that more combustion air was needed and when it was added the problem didn't change or got worse. There are easy ways to diagnose the problem as I mentioned before.

Shalldierks

We finally received the "combustion report". Instead of flooding the screen I put everything in the attached document. Looking forward to your responses.
Sheila

STEVEusaPA

That’s not a combustion report and there’s no draft numbers. I still think you’re underfired.

HVACNUT

CO2 is too low. It's a little much on the excess air but I don't think enough to offset the CO2 and drastically lower the CO.
From you're first set of pics you can see your boiler calls for a .75 60 B Hago nozzle @ 140 psi pump pressure. I don't stock Hago myself, but even with a Delavan, the numbers should be better.
Meanwhile, you still have odors, correct?
Cut ties with that company and find someone else. 

captainco

Steve I would agree with you on the underfired. And yes without draft testing there is no way to determine the actual problem or solution. I have certainly seen many situations where adding combustion air was recommended and it made matters worse.

Shalldierks

I'm sorry. What does underfired mean?

mattmia2

Underfired means the burner isn't burning enough oil, essentially it isn't producing as big a flame as is specified by the boiler manufacturer. The nozzle and pressure combination isn't pushing enough oil through the nozzle.

Shalldierks

@HVACNUT yes we still have the fumes. We have a different chimney guy coming out in the morning.  The original guy wanted to put a stainless steel cap on it and see what happens. He then wanted to charge us $675 and see how it goes. We can't afford to just start randomly changing things and see what happens. I need someone to come out and give answers! Money is low and the cold is starting to impact my health in a bad way. I'm not sure who to call next or what to do.
I am in Pennsylvania for Pete's sake. With all the coal and such I would think I could find someone to look at this that has half a brain and knows something about burning $hit to keep warm !!!!!!  

Jamie Hall

You would think so, wouldn't you, Sheila? But the truth of the matter is that folks who really understand how to make boilers and furnaces work, and how to make chimneys work, are getting pretty thin on the ground. You might try sending a PM -- just click on the name in this post -- to @STEVEusaPA . He may ot be able to help you directly, but he's knowledgeable -- and also in Pennsylvania.

Shalldierks

One question would dirty oil cause any of what we are seeing?

Jamie Hall

That's possible, but only if it were really dirty or way off specification --and if the filter hadn't been cared for and the nozzle got partly clogged. But both of those are things which are easy to attack and, once properly attacked (new filter element, new nozzle, combustion adjusted with instruments including draught) the problem would disappear.

Shalldierks

RESOLVED!!!!!

Different chimney sweep came out today and inspected/tested/cleaned chimney. He came recommend. He also does inpections for home sales and inspections for other situations.
The first chimney sweep saw daylight because he blew a hole in the center of the mess that was up there. He left a ton of $hit up there and charged $450.
New chimney sweep got an enormous pile of ick out including 1 deceased resident, possibly 2. He stayed while we fired upbthe furnace and tested it. No fumes at all. None! He charged us $135.
The first chimney sweep is getting a call from us. We are demanding our money back!

The oil/service company made several changes to our burner. I found out a friend had left a job with a school and started working for a local company on...you guessed it...oil burners. I called him and asked if he would come and inspect the boiler. Check everything because of all the stuff they changed to try and address the problem. He had to do the following:
1. Replace the nozzle they put on. The one they put on during the cleaning was the wrong size and had the wrong angle.
2. Adjusted the mix. It was way off apparently

In the end he didn't want to charge us anything. I insisted. He walked away with $100 in his pocket.  

My husband and I are going after the other chimney guy and a large amount of the money our former oil company took. What they did was wrong! I believe we deserve our money back especially since we had to bring in another company to fix what they did to "fix" the problem.

I want to thank each of you for your help. I believe we would still be without heat and hot water and trying to figure out what was wrong if it weren't for your help, suggestions and education.

Thank you so much
Sheila

mattmia2

Great that you got it fixed, sorry that you got 2 incompetent companies to work on it the first time(actually I'm not sure that oil tech would be a bad tech if they were hired and trained by a competent company, it sounds like the oil company is trying to save a penny to lose a pound and pushing them to do things they know they shouldn't).

captainco

2 seconds with a draft test would have identified the problem. Glad you called another chimney sweep. If you had called an HVAC contractor, they might have wanted to install more combustion air for another $400 or more and you would have still of had the problem.

Shalldierks

The original chimney guy swore it was clean and said he would come and scope it for $279 and then put a new cap on for $615!!!!Yes...$615 for a freaking cap!
We asked what his plan was and that is what he said. The people we did hire were actually recommended by our crappy oil service company.
I wish I could broadcast names so people can avoid the mistakes I made but I have a feeling that is frowned upon.

Shalldierks

The one thing we will give the crappy oil service company is that they insisted it was the chimney. They didn't try to sell us a new boiler or any other equipment. I am angry about the price. The wrong nozzle and the other settings that had to be fixed.

MikeL_2

   In the grand scheme of things you were quite lucky. Yes, there was frustration,  aggravation and some expense, but no one died or was injured. 
     Your persistence provided an opportunity for learning and many will benefit from your experience.
      

MikeAmann

Was that first chimney sweep wearing dark sunglasses? Maybe welding goggles?
Maybe trying to hide the fact that he was missing one eye, and could see out of the other.

Get a screened cap installed ASAP to prevent future critters from making a home in your chimney.