Permit Required to Replace Boiler in MA?

SteamingatMohawk

Which has a lower chance of clogging a sanitary sewer line, 3" or 4"?

ChrisJ

SteamingatMohawk said:

Which has a lower chance of clogging a sanitary sewer line, 3" or 4"?

Depends.
Under typical residential conditions and PVC pipe I'd say a 4" has a higher chance of clogging especially if it's pitched too much.

EBEBRATT-Ed

In some cases exceeding code will cause a violation. Substituting a larger drain pipe for the flow (4"-3") may cause solids to drop out and not flow plugging the pipe.

Meeting code in new construction is one thing. On a replacement or renovation it's something else, Anything existing that is old will not meet the "new" code.

The general rule is if it was legal when it was installed and hasn't been touched it's still legal (like knob & tube wiring). If your not making things worse leave it alone. You wouldn't want to add a window AC to a knob and tube circuit

So old knob & tube installed may be "legal". That doesn't mean it shouldn't be upgraded if deteriorated.

another example is the new restrictions on high efficiency boilers and furnaces vented with PVC for years but now (in general) PVC is no longer allowed.

Mass has allowed on a replacement you can continue to use the PVC on a replacement if it shows no sign of deterioration. This is only for PVC concealed in walls and ceilings where you would have to open things up to replace it

As @pedmec said the licenses and laws are to protect the consumer.

Not a perfect system by a long shot but a lot better than some of the "wild west" states

rsilvers

I see a mix of true and half true info. 

One needs a Burner Tech certificate in MA to install and oil burner. A permit needs to be pulled. There is an additional inspection by the fire department. 

A homeowner cannot do it themselves unless they are also a Burner Tech and get a permit. 

A permit for any electric is never needed in MA for a homeowner with the exception of a solar hookup to the grid. 

One does not need to be a licensed plumber in MA to hook up or change boiler water pipes. Likewise, one doesn’t need to be a plumber to repair lawn irrigation. 

BUT, one does need to be a plumber to change a back flow preventer, and that needs a permit. But if you leave the old one alone, then you don’t need a plumber or permit for anything. 

If working for hire, a Burner Tech does not need an electrician to hook up the wiring unless it is a new install. 

So, if you want to do this yourself and be fully legal, you need to become a Burner Tech. That costs $70 to become one. There is a test, but no work experience is needed. 

Jamie Hall

Tales out of school, perhaps. Many many decades ago I was one of four (two teams of two each) building inspectors for the ENTIRE state of Vermont (except Burlington). We technically had no jurisdiction over single family dwellings or farm structures, but would come take a look if asked. We looked at everything else (and yes, we put a lot of miles on that poor old Ford Country Squire!).

There was a nominal charge for getting our attention in the first place -- mostly to cover running copies of plans and specs. and that sort of thing; I seem to recall something like $25. Otherwise, there was no charge. We tried very hard to show up when you needed us. And we didn't just come in to inspect and leave -- if asked kindly we would help with design and draughting and even, on occasion, help with some of the actual work (I regret to say that once in a while we could be flat out ba####ds, too, though, come to think of it...). We regarded it as providing a service to the people of Vermont. We did everything -- water supply and wells, sewage and septic, electrical, plumbing, heating, gas and oil, even structural. Everything from one room schools and a few barns in the backwoods of the Northeast Kingdom to the big IBM Fab. in Essex Junction. Ski areas (Killington and Mount Snow were just fun!). Learned a lot!

rsilvers

SlamDunk said:

I ran my own natural gas pipe because I could not find a plumber willing to do it. The gas company did not offer the service to residential. Just commercial. If I had to do it over again, I probably would not do it even though I am way more qualified today then I was.

Twice a year, I run a gas sniffer along the pipe and I have a methane detector on each end (ten feet of pipe is vertical inside a wall). This 25 year old paranoia of mine is a sure sign I shouldn't have done it. At the time, it was an over reach- I just didnt know it.

I would do it and use anaerobic thread sealant. Locktite 577 or the 55 string. It ain't gonna leak.

rsilvers

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

In MA a homeowner can get his own electrical permit.......that's what the state says. But in some towns the inspector will not issue a permit to a homeowner and there really is no recourse

As far a plumbing and gas goes there are no homeowner permits and I never herd of a homeowner being able to get an oil burner permit

This is not exactly the situation. No MA towns will issue an electrical permit to a homeowner as per state decree as far as I know - unless some towns are ignoring the state directive, but it's not important because a home owner doesn't need an electrical permit unless the electric co demands it due to an interconnect with the grid. So no recourse is needed.

SlamDunk

@rsilvers
I used what is now called Neil Seal- medium weight. Good enough for jets and airport ground support equipment; good enough for six gas pipe joints. I just threw the can away. After 30 years, the paste looked great but the can was rusting.

I just looked it up-per manufacturer: no known shelf life.

rsilvers

Looks good. Aircraft product. 

I used MegaLoc once and had two leaks for hydronic temp water. The stuff is “easy to clean” which seems to mean “partially dissolves in hot water.”

Check this article out:

https://www.oasisngv.com/blog/m/9/yr/2020/id/269

EBEBRATT-Ed

@rsilvers

Part of what you stated may be true but not the electrical information in Massachusetts. I have been a Master electrician in MA since 83

All electrical work done by anyone is supposed to have a permit pulled and an inspection done. Solar has nothing to do with it. Solar also needs permits and inspections. This includes homeowner, electrician and oil burner technician (I am also a licensed oil burner tech in Ma since 1973)

The state allows homeowners to get an electrical permit to do there own work and it needs to be inspected.

However some towns local inspectors have refused to issue permits to homeowners

The extent of electrical work an oil burner tech can do is on a replacement burner or boiler he can reconnect the existing circuit and get a permit for that. He can also change controls etc.

If it needs a new circuit an electrician must do that

AdmiralYoda

Our electrical inspector is the inspector for three neighboring towns in addition to ours.

In the other towns the homeowner can pull their own permit.  In our town...licensed electrician only.  Same inspector though. 

rsilvers

Hi,

"All electrical work done by anyone is supposed to have a permit pulled and an inspection done."

No, that is just not true - all of the law is in writing - one can look it up. No permit is needed in MA for a homeowner to do their own electrical.

"Solar has nothing to do with it. Solar also needs permits and inspections."

I mentioned solar because you cannot connect to the grid without a permit, and in MA, one would want to connect to the grid since we have net metering and incentives. You could do solar without a permit if your house had no grid service.

"The state allows homeowners to get an electrical permit to do there own work and it needs to be inspected."

Actually they don't. The state has issued a directive to all towns to not issue permits to homeowners. Some might and ignore the state.

"However some towns local inspectors have refused to issue permits to homeowners"

That is true, but it's not important since a permit is not needed.

"If it needs a new circuit an electrician must do that"

True for work for hire. Not true if the tech is doing his own house. No permit is needed for any electrical work in MA for your own house, except like I said - when one must connect to the grid - and that is requirement of the electric co.

I realize some town websites say that a permit is needed, but they are incorrect as there is no such law. If there is, someone could show me it in the Mass General Laws.

See: https://malegislature.gov/laws/generallaws/parti/titlexx/chapter143/section3l

"No person shall install for hire any electrical wiring or fixtures subject to this section without first or within five days after commencing the work giving notice to the inspector of wires appointed pursuant to the provisions of section thirty-two of chapter one hundred and sixty-six. Said notice shall be given by mailing or delivering a permit application form prepared by the board, to said inspector. Any person failing to give such notice shall be punished by a fine not exceeding five hundred dollars. This section shall be enforced by the inspector of wires within his jurisdiction and the state examiners of electricians.

Any person installing for hire electrical wiring or fixtures subject to this section shall notify the inspector of wires in writing upon the completion of the work. The inspector of wires shall, within five days of such notification, give written notice of his approval or disapproval of said work. A notice of disapproval shall contain specifications of the part of the work disapproved, together with a reference to the rule or regulation of the board of fire prevention regulations which has been violated."

Kickstand55

Inspectors are public servants, not supposed to be Czars or Dictators. I've dealt with my share. Most are ok.
A good inspector will ask probing questions regarding the proposed work and offer suggestions based on code, materials, workmanship and of course obtaining all permits in addition to when to call for inspections.
Permits are also a good thing to consider should there be a life safety issue or some type of incident requiring municipal aid. I must also mention insurance companies sometimes become involved. If there is an event requiring their presence weather or not permits are drawn and the situation, even remotely, involves a permittable job, brace yourself. There may be many questions to answer.
So, the moral of the story, get permits and inspections.
Nuff said.

Charlie from wmass

The moral of the story is if you want to start a riot on the wall step one ask about permits step two mention Massachusetts and if you really want to get it going step three throw in New York City.

rsilvers

Kickstand55 said:

So, the moral of the story, get permits and inspections.
Nuff said.

I agree, when fire is involved.

What about if you are replacing an electric water heater with another electric water heater?

ChrisJ

rsilvers said:

So, the moral of the story, get permits and inspections. Nuff said.

I agree, when fire is involved. What about if you are replacing an electric water heater with another electric water heater?

So bad electrical work never causes house fires or other issues?

What about plumbing?  A water heater can be bomb if installed incorrectly.

I fail to see why a permit is required just because an off the shelf engineered and tested gas burning appliance is involved.  And yet you feel its not when electrical work or potable water is involved.

Seems odd to me.

rsilvers

A permit is not needed for electrical work in MA by a homeowner.

A permit is needed for plumbing in MA, though not for hydronic pipes or lawn irrigation, except for the back flow device.

I didn't mean to say that I think this is right or wrong. I was asking what others thought.

bucksnort

SlamDunk said:

Makes me wonder, if you need a license and permit to do what sounds like minimal work, why wouldn't a state like MA restrict what Lowe's or Home Depot sells?

I mean, if a home owner can't legally install a light switch without a permit, why should any hardware store be allowed to sell a light switch to anyone? And how many home owners would pay an electrician to install a light switch plus time to get permit etc? That becomes a very expensive light switch. If that example is an exaggeration, let's use a ten foot circuit in the basement. Seems to me, hardware stoes shouldnt be allowed to sell a lot of things to the general public in MA.

I can buy big fireworks in my state legally at the fireworks store. I just can't legally set them off unless I get a permit to do so from the local fire chief. Doesn't seem to stop 99.9999% of the people from lightning them off.

ChrisJ

rsilvers said:

A permit is not needed for electrical work in MA by a homeowner. A permit is needed for plumbing in MA, though not for hydronic pipes or lawn irrigation, except for the back flow device. I didn't mean to say that I think this is right or wrong. I was asking what others thought.

You said some towns require it.

In NJ town codes override state codes as far as I understand.  

DJD775

@rsilvers I can't find where in the mass laws it says homeowners are exempt from needing an electrical permit. I did find a bill relating to the subject that is proposed to clarify the homeowners rights. The way the bill is worded makes me believe homeowners do need permits.

Bill H.355
SECTION 1. Section 3L of chapter 143 of the General Laws, as appearing in the 2010 Official Edition, is hereby amended by deleting the words "for hire" in paragraph 4 and paragraph 5.

SECTION 2. Section 3L of chapter 143 of the General Laws, as appearing in the 2010 Official Edition, is hereby amended by inserting at the end thereof the following paragraph: -

“Nothing in this section shall be construed to provide the inspector of wires with the authority to reject a permit application of an applicant who is not a certified electrician; provided, that the property indicated on the permit application is the applicant’s primary residence, the applicant is the owner of the property, and the property is no greater than a single family house.”

rsilvers

Laws don't exist to say what is legal. Only to say what is illegal. Everything is legal by default.

To put it another way, if the police or building inspection wanted to punish someone for doing unpermited work - what law would they use to do that? There is none.

What exempts a homeowner is SECTION 1. Section 3L of chapter 143 where it says "for hire" in paragraph 4 and 5, making the law only apply to those doing work for money.

If the Bill passes, homeowners would need to get a permit and would be granted one.

DJD775

"Laws don't exist to say what is legal"
I think they do. If you break the law it's illegal, isn't it?

Since there is no state law on homeowner permits the city/town is not in violation of the law by requiring a permit.
As far as I know permits, inspections, and certificates of occupancy are all handled on the city/town level.

rsilvers

DJD775 said:

If you break the law it's illegal, isn't it? 

True. You are not allowed to break a law. 

There is no law saying that a permit is needed, so there is no law to break. You don’t need permission to do things that are not illegal to do. Everything is legal unless it is illegal. 

The statement “A homeowner can’t get a permit to do electric work in MA” is a true statement. 

But “It is legal for a homeowner to do electrical work without a permit in MA” is also a true statement. 

You raise a new point - can a town go outside of MA state law and make their own town law that a permit is needed for electrical work. I don’t know, but perhaps they can. Maybe see if a given town has a bylaw that addresses this. I know my town doesn’t because the electrical inspector told me I can do my own work. 

Jamie Hall

The question of whether all things are legal unless prohibited by law (Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence) or nothing is legal unless permitted by law (French (Napoleonic))/Roman jurisprudence) goes way beyond the Wall, folks -- but is an uncrossable gulf, and the source of much confusion in many people's minds.

DJD775

@rsilvers You did the right thing by checking with you building authority and I believe you that you are fine in your town.
Without wasting too much time this is the best reference I could find that gives towns the right to adopt their own bylaws and ordinances but might not apply to this scenario:
Massachusetts laws
MGL c. 40A Zoning
Gives cities and towns authority to adopt ordinances and bylaws to regulate the use of land, buildings and structures.

Also lookup local ordinance on Wikipedia. Good info about the US on there.

I'm done on this subject. Lets get back to talking about heating installs .

murphpipes

In the state of Massachusetts you need to pull a permit for anything involving cutting into a pipe. When the plumbing or heating system is changed it is subject to inspection 

when a new boiler is installed or the replacement of an existing boiler takes place

you need a plumbing permit, for the fuel (if not #2 fuel oil) oil burner licenses are also seperate and state issued 

natural gas and lpg are plumbers jurisdiction 

the venting (exhaust)  of combustion products and the intake or makeup air for combustion is also plumbers jurisdiction 

backflow preventer which connects potable water to non potable 

This is all plumbing. yes it is heating and therefor is also hvac however Massachusetts does not regulate residential sized hvac work with state level licensing like they do plumbing and electric.  You only need an epa 608 universal certification to handle under 10 tons of refrigerant.  Once you cross that threshold you are at a Massachusetts state level refrigeration license. Also you need a state sheet metal license to install new ductwork and pull permits for new installation of ducted systems. But these licenses do not allow you to pipe the gas or the venting / intake for combustion.  

You will also need an electrician to connect the supply power for the system and there shall always be a firematic safety switch and carbon monoxide detector on the same floor or adjacent if in a crawl space.  As well as an emergency burner shut off on the unit and at the top of the stairs if in a basement. 

I know all of this because I have worked both sides of the trade in this state. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Technically permits are needed for everything plumbing, gas fitting electrical and sheet metal in MA. Refrigeration systems 10 ton and under =no license but you need the epa cert.

Ma laws are state wide. Cities and towns are not allowed to make their own rules, but they do in some cases and there is no one to enforce these things unless the person involved and the inspector go before the state board.

I have told a couple of inspectors "ok, were going to Boston" in both cases they backed down. But I don't recommend this unless you are certain your 100% right.

Charlie from wmass

Massachusetts code gives the ability for local jurisdictions to be more strict than the state code. They do not allow for any jurisdiction to be less strict than the state code. Any work concerning portable water or fuel whether the fuel is gas or oil or solid requires permitting that can only be obtained by people within the given trade. Plumbers are covered for gas fitting but they are not covered for oil burn work. I have both oil burner technician certification and master plumbing license for Massachusetts. The use of PVC pipe preventing of a boiler is illegal in the state of Massachusetts even if it is existing pipe and is in good condition it still needs to be changed. I haven't taken the time to read every single post in response in here just the ones that caught my eye and needed some clarification. If chapter and verse is required to substantiate my claims please let me know. Electrical work can be performed by homeowners in certain towns if the inspectors are willing to go along with it. Many towns inspectors have become so sick and tired of dealing with DIY electrical work that they spend wasted time explaining why it has to be corrected that they no longer allow homeowners to do electrical. They are within their authority to do that according to the code book. Not being an electrician I would have to search for the code books to get you chapter and verse on that. 

Mad Dog_2

There is The Gold Standard and then there is reality.  If the HO won't let you open walls are you going to walk away from the job?
Nope..A.A.V. (Air Admittance Valve) if you have to.  If the client can only afford a basic installation, a blown up drop header is not necessary.  

I keep "try" to Reach The Gold Standard as much as practical,  but as I say.."Every job isn't Magazine worthy, but it WILL be pin neat, clean, and perform.  Mad Dog 🐕 
  

Charlie from wmass

If the ho won't let me meet the code then yes I walk away. Air admittance valves? Really ? Really really? 

jesmed1

pedmec said:

just want to chime in on a couple of issues, just to clarify.

and why you need a license in Massachusetts? look no further than just about every residential ductwork job in the state of ma. if i inspected every furnace installed per acca specifications i could fail 95 out of 100. no exaggeration. up until about 10-15 years ago there were no sheet metal permits or sheet metal board. it was a free for all. and most of the work is being done by so called professionals. how could you tell? most of these guys slash and burn that **** in. take the money and run. you really had to do your research. customer is left with half the rooms freezing and half their rooms overheating.

No joke. My church in MA got a new gas furnace installed 2 years ago. As a mechanical engineer, I volunteered to get involved when the building wasn't getting up to temp on Sundays before services. The furnace installers were called several times and blamed it on church members not knowing how to set the thermostat. I ended up having to put data loggers on the furnace to prove to the installers that the furnace was repeatedly overheating, shutting down on the high limit, then cooling off and restarting. The installers could not figure out why it was overheating. I had to do all the legwork myself, checking the flue for blockages and correct sizing, checking the ductwork for blockages and airflow rates, etc.

I finally had to get my own ductulator and calculate CFM's through all the ductwork to ensure sufficient airflow. Then I had to get my own digital manometer to check static pressures before and after the furnace. It turned out that the furnace installers hadn't bothered to caclulate CFM's on the existing ductwork, with the result that the furnace was choking on undersized ducts, with a total static pressure over twice the max allowed by the furnace on the rating plate. When I presented my data to the HVAC tech, he didn't even know what the max allowable total static pressure was for the furnace, or where to find it. I had to show him the rating plate right on the front of the furnace that said 0.5" WC max total static. Then we tried to figure out a fix, and he pulled out his ductulator and started using it without adding effective lengths for 90-degree elbows, etc. It was a joke. They had no clue about how to calculate whether the existing ductwork was adequate for the new furnace they installed. And on top of that, they installed it on a ridiculously short new plenum base that turned out to be the main restriction in the entire setup. And because of height restrictions in the furnace room, there was no way to fix the ductwork. We ended up having to lock the furnace in low-fire mode so it wouldn't overheat. Now it runs all the time at 40% capacity. So yes, "licensed" and "competent" often do not coincide.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@jesmed1

I don't doubt what you said above at all. I have seen many awful duct jobs. Ma is trying to fix this as they started licensing sheet metal workers about 10?? years ago. But any hack who installed sheet metal back then could get a grandfathered license and many of them are still working. I have seen so many jobs with undersized ducts.

One common thing I used to see was the supply ducts would be somewhat undersized not right but not awful, but the returns were always choked way down.......like somehow, they think the furnace or ahu will somehow "manufacture" more air if it can't get enough return air.

But I am sure enforcement of the quality of the installations in MA as far as sheet metal goes is probably still lacking proving that licensing is sometimes just a "money maker' for the state.

For gas, plumbing and electrical most inspectors are pretty good. The fire dept inspects oil burners so weather they know what they are looking at is a crapshoot.

jesmed1

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@jesmed1

One common thing I used to see was the supply ducts would be somewhat undersized not right but not awful, but the returns were always choked way down.......like somehow, they think the furnace or ahu will somehow "manufacture" more air if it can't get enough return air.

This was exactly our problem, choked return because the furnace installer had limited space in the furnace room, so they installed a return base plenum that was like 8" tall. Way too restrictive. Over half the total static pressure I measured in the entire system was from that one undersized return plenum. I doubt anyone even bothered to calculate the CFM's on it, and I know they didn't bother to measure static pressure across the furnace after install because there were no holes in the ductwork for a manometer probe.

That's what frosted me so much after I finally figured it out. If they had taken 10 minutes after install to measure the total static pressure across the furnace, like they are supposed to, they would have realized it was over twice the max allowed by the furnace mfr. They didn't, so it took me months of unpaid effort to educate myself about gas furnaces, duct sizing, CFM's and static pressure to figure out how they had screwed up.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@jesmed1
First thing down and dirty is to check the gas pressure at the burner to check the input. Then get a temp rise across the furnace after the temps have steadied out. That will show if it is moving enough air or not

What you did was the right way to find the problem though

jesmed1

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@jesmed1
First thing down and dirty is to check the gas pressure at the burner to check the input. Then get a temp rise across the furnace after the temps have steadied out. That will show if it is moving enough air or not

What you did was the right way to find the problem though

It was a very long learning curve for me. I started by putting temp data loggers on the supply and return ducts and graphing the data so I could see by the spikes in the supply air temp when the furnace was turning on, then overheating and shutting down. From that I proved to myself and the installers that the furnace was indeed overheating, and that the temperature rise was at or above the max allowed by spec.

Then we did check gas pressure inputs and even turned the regulator down to the minimum spec. But still it overheated.

That's when I began to realize there was insufficient airflow to cool the heat exchanger, and that's where my education in CFM's and static pressures with a ductulator began.

But the real turning point was when I watched a YouTube video by a guy who called himself a "forensic heating specialist" who got called in to fix problems like this. He said the first thing he always does when checking a furnace install is measure the total static pressure across the furnace, and he showed how to do it. He said he can always tell if the installers measured the static pressure as they're supposed to do, because there has to be a small hole in the supply duct above the furnace and one in the return duct below the furnace to introduce the probe. He said if there are no holes, that means the installer did not measure the total static pressure. And he said he almost never sees those holes.

That's when the lightbulb went on for me. I checked the ducts at the furnace, and sure enough, no holes. I bought a digital manometer, drilled two test holes right where YouTube guy said, measured total static, and sure enough, it was over twice the max spec. It was so high, it was actually off the chart of CFM vs. total static in the furnace manual.

Charlie from wmass

jesmed1 said:

just want to chime in on a couple of issues, just to clarify. and why you need a license in Massachusetts? look no further than just about every residential ductwork job in the state of ma. if i inspected every furnace installed per acca specifications i could fail 95 out of 100. no exaggeration. up until about 10-15 years ago there were no sheet metal permits or sheet metal board. it was a free for all. and most of the work is being done by so called professionals. how could you tell? most of these guys slash and burn that **** in. take the money and run. you really had to do your research. customer is left with half the rooms freezing and half their rooms overheating.

No joke. My church in MA got a new gas furnace installed 2 years ago. As a mechanical engineer, I volunteered to get involved when the building wasn't getting up to temp on Sundays before services. The furnace installers were called several times and blamed it on church members not knowing how to set the thermostat. I ended up having to put data loggers on the furnace to prove to the installers that the furnace was repeatedly overheating, shutting down on the high limit, then cooling off and restarting. The installers could not figure out why it was overheating. I had to do all the legwork myself, checking the flue for blockages and correct sizing, checking the ductwork for blockages and airflow rates, etc. I finally had to get my own ductulator and calculate CFM's through all the ductwork to ensure sufficient airflow. Then I had to get my own digital manometer to check static pressures before and after the furnace. It turned out that the furnace installers hadn't bothered to caclulate CFM's on the existing ductwork, with the result that the furnace was choking on undersized ducts, with a total static pressure over twice the max allowed by the furnace on the rating plate. When I presented my data to the HVAC tech, he didn't even know what the max allowable total static pressure was for the furnace, or where to find it. I had to show him the rating plate right on the front of the furnace that said 0.5" WC max total static. Then we tried to figure out a fix, and he pulled out his ductulator and started using it without adding effective lengths for 90-degree elbows, etc. It was a joke. They had no clue about how to calculate whether the existing ductwork was adequate for the new furnace they installed. And on top of that, they installed it on a ridiculously short new plenum base that turned out to be the main restriction in the entire setup. And because of height restrictions in the furnace room, there was no way to fix the ductwork. We ended up having to lock the furnace in low-fire mode so it wouldn't overheat. Now it runs all the time at 40% capacity. So yes, "licensed" and "competent" often do not coincide.

The license for sheet metal is mostly a grandfathered license not one tested for right now. It will take a decade more to have it mean anything. The lack of training for generations will need time to work out. 

jesmed1

Charlie from wmass said:

The license for sheet metal is mostly a grandfathered license not one tested for right now. It will take a decade more to have it mean anything. The lack of training for generations will need time to work out. 

Does that mean that most HVAC guys here do not actually get tested on duct sizing? Then our HVAC guy's apparent unfamiliarity with the need to add "effective lengths" for duct elbows and fittings makes a lot more sense. I couldn't understand how he wouldn't know that.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Unfortunately, the "average " sheet metal guy probably can't use a ductulator or know much of anything about sizing duct. They install what the boss tells them.

jesmed1

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Unfortunately, the "average " sheet metal guy probably can't use a ductulator or know much of anything about sizing duct. They install what the boss tells them.

The guy who did our furnace was the co-owner of the heating company, and he's the one who didn't know to add effective lengths for duct fittings. So it seems the ignorance is more widespread than the average sheet metal guy.

After I was done explaining the root cause of the static pressure problem to this co-owner of the heating company, he commented that I knew more about duct sizing, static pressure, and how to use a ductulator than 80 percent of the guys working in his field. Which I found rather alarming since I had only just bought my el-cheapo ductulator and taught myself how to use it a few weeks prior.