Permit Required to Replace Boiler in MA?

AdmiralYoda

My boiler is 40 years old and still holding strong...but there is a good chance in the not too distance future its time will be up.

I am curious about MA codes and if a permit is required to replace the boiler. I've heard from two contractor friends in the construction trade (red flag) that a permit isn't required to replace heating equipment as long as it is a one-for-one replacement of existing equipment. Meaning, I'm not converting to hot-water baseboard or radiant floors or a hot air furnace.

This sounds strange to me. Any of you guys know better if a permit is required in MA to pipe in a new boiler?

Yes I know local rules apply, but just wondering about MA in general. Our local inspector is rather abrupt and because I am not a licensed plumber I will get very little attention so I thought I'd ask here.

ChrisJ

AdmiralYoda said:

My boiler is 40 years old and still holding strong...but there is a good chance in the not too distance future its time will be up.

I am curious about MA codes and if a permit is required to replace the boiler. I've heard from two contractor friends in the construction trade (red flag) that a permit isn't required to replace heating equipment as long as it is a one-for-one replacement of existing equipment. Meaning, I'm not converting to hot-water baseboard or radiant floors or a hot air furnace.

This sounds strange to me. Any of you guys know better if a permit is required in MA to pipe in a new boiler?

Yes I know local rules apply, but just wondering about MA in general. Our local inspector is rather abrupt and because I am not a licensed plumber I will get very little attention so I thought I'd ask here.

I've got a feeling you're not even allowed to replace a boiler in MA unless you're a licensed plumber.

SlamDunk

Really does depend on jurisdiction. The installer who replaced my furnace/ac pulled a permit. But I replaced my boiler without a permit and it is just as legal. Besides, a local inspector is obliged to answer your questions. You are paying them.

Charlie from wmass

They lied. And any licensed contractor of any trade would know that permits are required. 

AdmiralYoda

Charlie from wmass said:

They lied. And any licensed contractor of any trade would know that permits are required. 

This confirms my suspicions. These contractor buddies are probably under the umbrella of their company and have no clue about the paperwork, process and overhead that occurs before they drive to job number XX at the town of the day.

I like to do things by the book but something wasn't adding up. I can't replace a light switch or faucet by myself in MA, so it was surprising to hear that heating stuff is the land of the wild west. A permit will be pulled when the time comes.

EBEBRATT-Ed

In MA. there are no permits required specifically for the boiler and the boiler piping which is considered heating and is not plumbing. Plumbers are not licensed to do heating in MA.

That being said:

If it is a gas boiler you need someone with a gasfitter or plumber license to connect the gas and the gas boiler flue and venting falls under this.

If it's oil you need a licensed oil burner tech for the oil tank/oil burner install & venting

You need a plumber to connect the water make up (unless your downstream of an existing backflow preventer)

You need an electrician to connect the electrical (licensed oil techs are allowed to wire a boiler that is a replacement with less than 10' of wire/conduit and using an existing circuit. They are also supposed to get an electrical permit for this.


MA has a pipefitters license for heating but it does not apply to boilers installed in homes. Pipefitters license and boiler inspections by the state does not apply to boilers under 200,000 BTU ( this has been changed a few times)

AdmiralYoda

Thank you @EBEBRATT-Ed that is great info.  I have a plumber friend (not in the above group) that replaces boilers and other plumbing things for a big plumbing HVAC company.

I had him in mind for this and it's good to know the larger picture so I can make sure things go by the book.

SlamDunk

@EBEBRATT-Ed , that all sounds crazy. You need an electrician and a permit to connect a boiler if it has an existing circuit 11 ft long?

Charlie from wmass

All boilers have exhaust. This is either from gas or oil. So a licensed oil burner technician or plumber or gas fitter needs to pull the appropriate permit. Existing backflow preventer does not preclude a plumbing permit as it is still attached to potable water. It is a cross connection that needs inspected. Oil boilers can be wired after the thermal safety switch with one piece of rigid EMT by a licensed oil burner technician. Otherwise wiring needs to be by the homeowner or a licensed electrician all options require an electrical permit and inspection. Pipe fitters is for over 400mbtu and a state fire marshal inspection for anything of 750mbtu.  Also please go to mass.gov to search any of this as I am just a licensed plumber, sheet metal contractor, and oil burner technician and I am not a representative of any Authority Having Jurisdiction in Massachusetts or any other state. 

EdTheHeaterMan

I think you need a permit in MA to scratch your but! Unless you have never passed gas. That is one of the most regulated state when it coms to anything HVACR and Plumbing/boilers and the like. @Charlie from wmass has the best advise.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@SlamDunk

On new construction the boiler is wired by the electrician. On an oil replacement only in MA, a licensed oil tech can disconnect and reconnect from the old boiler to the new boiler as long as he doesn't need more that 10' of new wire/conduit to reconnect. And he is supposed to take out an electrical permit.


I used to do commercial gas/oil burners and boilers in MA.

to do them legally in MA

oil permit
gas permit
plumbing permit
electrical permit
sheet metal permit for the flue
Inspection of the boiler by the state

So, you would have 6 inspectors poking their nose into things

And if you are attaching or adding any gas equipment you have to deal with the gas utility and if it is high pressure gas (anything over 1 psi) there are a slew of other thing you have to do.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@EdTheHeaterMan

if you want a good laugh sometimes, look up the list of licenses available in CT. Lawn sprinklers, TV antennas and just about anything else you can think of. strictly a money grab

mattmia2

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@EdTheHeaterMan

if you want a good laugh sometimes, look up the list of licenses available in CT. Lawn sprinklers, TV antennas and just about anything else you can think of. strictly a money grab

Until you look at the grounding electrode system that a cable installer ripped off my mom's house to make it reach their too short and poorly routed wire.

JakeCK

mattmia2 said:

@EdTheHeaterMan if you want a good laugh sometimes, look up the list of licenses available in CT. Lawn sprinklers, TV antennas and just about anything else you can think of. strictly a money grab

Until you look at the grounding electrode system that a cable installer ripped off my mom's house to make it reach their too short and poorly routed wire.

Can't fix stupid. 

But yea I've heard the Northeastern seaboard is insane for permits.

That said my city now requires a permit for ethernet, phone, coax, and any other low voltage system including a per outlet fee. They even require a $50 permit for a rain barrel. I won't comment on my compliance with any of that. I will say I don't think there are any mfg dates printed on my 1000ft roll of cat6. And if there is... Y'all ever see back to the future? They even have the flux capacitor available at O'Rileys. Lol

The impetus for all this? The great state of Ohio cut back on funding to cities to balance the state budget about 10years ago. So the cities need to balance their budget via fines and fees. Same reason we have red light/speed cameras now. Even though it took 3 phone calls and an email to the mayor to finally get them to look into the idiot who would rip down my street at 50mph+. Speed limit is 25 and kids are walking to school at 8am...

SAFETY! 

Edit: oh and under cabinet led lighting is included now for a permit. Can't figure that one out because you literally plug it into an existing outlet and tape/screw it to the underside of the cabinets. Pretty soon I'll need a permit for new toaster. 

KC_Jones

Want to swing this pendulum the other way? Come to PA, it's the wild west here. No permit of any kind to replace a boiler of any size in my town. I inquired about this when I replaced mine, and again when I did the inspection for the local fire museum. I figured at 400k btu, and a public/commercial installation things would be different, but no, no they were not. And that install had obvious safety issues in the gas piping.

I'm not one for an overbearing government, but this is the exact reason we need one. 2 blocks from my house is a potential bomb and the contractor, town, nor property owner care. This is the mentality I live with daily in my town.

AdmiralYoda

I'm of the mentality that homeowners should be able to do their own work, minus piping natural gas or oil.  Permits should be pulled and the work should still be inspected.

If the work is inspected it shouldn't matter who did it.  If I am capable of installing a new electrical outlet I should be able to do it.  If I think I am capable but I'm not it will fail inspection.

Ideally I would install the boiler myself and leave the gas hookup to a pro.  If it is done correctly, it shouldn't matter who did it because it would pass inspection.  

ChrisJ

AdmiralYoda said:

I'm of the mentality that homeowners should be able to do their own work, minus piping natural gas or oil.  Permits should be pulled and the work should still be inspected.

If the work is inspected it shouldn't matter who did it.  If I am capable of installing a new electrical outlet I should be able to do it.  If I think I am capable but I'm not it will fail inspection.

Ideally I would install the boiler myself and leave the gas hookup to a pro.  If it is done correctly, it shouldn't matter who did it because it would pass inspection.  

That's odd.

Why should homeowners not be allowed to pipe natural gas or oil in their own home on their own land?
I did all of my own natural gas piping and I feel better that way.

Before anyone makes any nasty comments, let's not forget the huge natural gas fubar in MA a few years back wasn't caused by homeowners or DIY.

SlamDunk

Wow, it doesn't seem possible for a municipality to have enough inspectors for all this.

My experience in my locale is this:

My former neighbor was a state employee who used to write the plumbing code for this state. His name was among 20 or more in the front pages of our local code book. When he saw my old, cracked boiler, he asked me if I was going to replace it. I said no, there aren't any contractors that do boilers around here, that I could find, and if they were out there, I probably couldn't afford it. He said I could do it myself. I said, no license, no permits. He said " not a problem here".

Prior to that, I paid an electrician to upgrade my service to 200 amp. By luck of the draw, and because I live 2 miles from city hall, the chief electrical inspector did the inspection. Nice, friendly guy. Asked why I paid an electrician to do this? I said, who else was going to do it? I have no license, no permit. He said- not a problem here. I asked, "you mean, if I wanted to rewire this whole house myself, I could? He said yep! So I did. Replaced the plumbing too.

Ten years ago, a flipper bought a nearby duplex, gutted it and converted it into a single family home. No contractors pulled permits for any craft. Shoe string budget. When one contractor didn't get a contract, he reported all the work to the city. The punishment? The flipper had to live in the house for two years before he could sell it. If nothing happens in two years, the house would be considered safe.

Somewhere between my area's philosophy and Massachusetts' there is a happy medium. I think both places are nuts.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I would be willing to bet if you took all the residential boilers sold in the US in a year that well over 50% are installed with no permits.

You make the system so harsh people won't comply, then you get shoddy work installed in some but not all cases. At one time I had 13 different state licenses in 3 states'

I have no objection to homeowners doing their own work if done correctly. Many homeowners are capable of doing work better than a contractor in part because they can spend unlimited time doing it

By the same token I have seen a lot of work installed in MA, and some of it is shoddy. But then you travel to other states and see what the wild west is really like

AdmiralYoda

@ChrisJ I feel as though piping natural gas or oil could go bad quick due to the flammable nature of it....but inspected is inspected! I personally wouldn't want to touch it.

But the same can be said of electricity or plumbing if it is done poorly...it can have disasterous results if mistakes are made. The explosion hazard of natural gas has me squeemish. But if it inspected I suppose what is the difference?!?!?

DJD775

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

I have no objection to homeowners doing their own work if done correctly. Many homeowners are capable of doing work better than a contractor in part because they can spend unlimited time doing it.

That's the way I see it as well. Almost 100% of the time contractors can get the job done faster than me. Maybe 10-20% of the time they can do it better.

ratio

The problem seems to be that competent & qualified are only tenuously related.

ChrisJ

AdmiralYoda said:

@ChrisJ I feel as though piping natural gas or oil could go bad quick due to the flammable nature of it....but inspected is inspected! I personally wouldn't want to touch it.

But the same can be said of electricity or plumbing if it is done poorly...it can have disasterous results if mistakes are made. The explosion hazard of natural gas has me squeemish. But if it inspected I suppose what is the difference?!?!?

Statistically I believe there are far more electrical fires than natural gas or LPG issues.

When the plumbing inspector came to inspect all of my stuff he looked around and when everything looked proper he grumbled and passed it. I think he was mainly looking for things like a garden hose feeding a water heater NG etc..... When everything looked like it was done in a professional manner and the basement didn't stink he felt it was acceptable.

Do I feel inspections and permits are necessary? YES.


But, like @EBEBRATT-Ed said, the cost of the permits and the permits required needs to be reasonable and the inspectors need to work with guys. When an inspector comes in and makes up their own rules and is completely unreasonable people want to avoid them. Then you're back to no permits and no inspections even though they're required.

For example, pressure testing 100 year old cast iron radiators with 60 PSIG compressed air. That's unreasonable and probably even dangerous.

AdmiralYoda

One thing MA has done well is to encourage people to work without a permit. Many building department hours are inconvenient and the process itself is overwhelming and confusing to some. A significant portion of the population would rather not go through that hassle and just prefer to not get caught.

If pulling permits was easier and homeowners could get their own work inspected I bet there would be a good deal more inspections. Probably better in the bigger picture. Just my two cents.

reggi

ChrisJ said:

I'm of the mentality that homeowners should be able to do their own work, minus piping natural gas or oil.  Permits should be pulled and the work should still be inspected.

If the work is inspected it shouldn't matter who did it.  If I am capable of installing a new electrical outlet I should be able to do it.  If I think I am capable but I'm not it will fail inspection.

Ideally I would install the boiler myself and leave the gas hookup to a pro.  If it is done correctly, it shouldn't matter who did it because it would pass inspection.  

That's odd. Why should homeowners not be allowed to pipe natural gas or oil in their own home on their own land? I did all of my own natural gas piping and I feel better that way. Before anyone makes any nasty comments, let's not forget the huge natural gas fubar in MA a few years back wasn't caused by homeowners or DIY.

And you threaded your own pipe too if I recall correctly

Charlie from wmass

I have never seen a boiler installation done by somebody that did not think that they were capable of doing it. This includes some of the absolutely most horrendous installations one could imagine. The great thing is this is a big country if you want to work where there are no codes and you can do what you want you can move there and be paid accordingly. If you understand that there are rules and regulations in place in order to protect the safety of the public and get paid accordingly you can also move there and work. Massachusetts required licensing and inspection.

SlamDunk

Makes me wonder, if you need a license and permit to do what sounds like minimal work, why wouldn't a state like MA restrict what Lowe's or Home Depot sells?

I mean, if a home owner can't legally install a light switch without a permit, why should any hardware store be allowed to sell a light switch to anyone? And how many home owners would pay an electrician to install a light switch plus time to get permit etc? That becomes a very expensive light switch. If that example is an exaggeration, let's use a ten foot circuit in the basement. Seems to me, hardware stoes shouldnt be allowed to sell a lot of things to the general public in MA.

ChrisJ

reggi said:

ChrisJ said:

AdmiralYoda said:

I'm of the mentality that homeowners should be able to do their own work, minus piping natural gas or oil.  Permits should be pulled and the work should still be inspected.

If the work is inspected it shouldn't matter who did it.  If I am capable of installing a new electrical outlet I should be able to do it.  If I think I am capable but I'm not it will fail inspection.

Ideally I would install the boiler myself and leave the gas hookup to a pro.  If it is done correctly, it shouldn't matter who did it because it would pass inspection.  

That's odd.

Why should homeowners not be allowed to pipe natural gas or oil in their own home on their own land?
I did all of my own natural gas piping and I feel better that way.

Before anyone makes any nasty comments, let's not forget the huge natural gas fubar in MA a few years back wasn't caused by homeowners or DIY.

And you threaded your own pipe too if I recall correctly

Yes, I ended up buying a Ridgid 65R-TC.
And a really good friend gave me an older threader that does smaller pipe.

SlamDunk

I ran my own natural gas pipe because I could not find a plumber willing to do it. The gas company did not offer the service to residential. Just commercial. If I had to do it over again, I probably would not do it even though I am way more qualified today then I was.

Twice a year, I run a gas sniffer along the pipe and I have a methane detector on each end (ten feet of pipe is vertical inside a wall). This 25 year old paranoia of mine is a sure sign I shouldn't have done it. At the time, it was an over reach- I just didnt know it.

ChrisJ

SlamDunk said:

I ran my own natural gas pipe because I could not find a plumber willing to do it. The gas company did not offer the service to residential. Just commercial. If I had to do it over again, I probably would not do it even though I am way more qualified today then I was.

Twice a year, I run a gas sniffer along the pipe and I have a methane detector on each end (ten feet of pipe is vertical inside a wall). This 25 year old paranoia of mine is a sure sign I shouldn't have done it. At the time, it was an over reach- I just didnt know it.

You didn't pressure test it? Why are you so concerned?
Most of mine was tested at a pretty high pressure for weeks. 6" WC isn't going to make it leak.

PC7060

AdmiralYoda said:

I'm of the mentality that homeowners should be able to do their own work, minus piping natural gas or oil.  Permits should be pulled and the work should still be inspected.

If the work is inspected it shouldn't matter who did it.  If I am capable of installing a new electrical outlet I should be able to do it.  If I think I am capable but I'm not it will fail inspection.

Ideally I would install the boiler myself and leave the gas hookup to a pro.  If it is done correctly, it shouldn't matter who did it because it would pass inspection.  

In Virginia the homeowner can do any trade including gas piping provided permits are pulled and inspections completed. 

I pulled all required permits for a large addition to my house including building permit which covered framing, electrical, HVAC and plumbing.  Gas was separate permit.   I did have to complete a training course from gas utility before I could pull a permit to install 2PSI gas line. 

JakeCK

PC7060 said:

In Virginia the homeowner can do any trade including gas piping provided permits are pulled and inspections completed. 

Same in Ohio, but my particular city wants a permit for everything under the sun just so they can maximize profits.

The permits for my solar system and service upgrade almost totalled a grand. The inspector was here for 20 minutes and 15 of that was BSing. He hardly glanced at work performed.

SlamDunk

@ChrisJ

Nope. I used enough dope and torque that 6"wc wouldnt leak out. That said, 100psi for 24 hours would have been smart. 27 years ago, I wasnt so smart.

PC7060

JakeCK said: Same in Ohio, but my particular city wants a permit for everything under the sun just so they can maximize profits.

The permits for my solar system and service upgrade almost totalled a grand. The inspector was here for 20 minutes and 15 of that was BSing. He hardly glanced at work performed.

Ouch!

pecmsg

All permits define is Minimum standards!
All our jobs reach a much higher standard. 

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

All permits define is Minimum standards!
All our jobs reach a much higher standard. 

Sure they do.

pell

I live in NH on the MA boarder. I am a licensed MA tech. The boarder town in MA when the smoke detectors are inspected for a home sale (MA law) if there are no permits present for the burner or oil tank, the inspector checks at the station for the permit. If none are found permits need to pulled, inspected and up to current code. Mind you the smoke detectors must be done no more than 3 days before the closing. Also doesn't matter is the equipment be there for one day or 60 years.

EBEBRATT-Ed

In MA a homeowner can get his own electrical permit.......that's what the state says. But in some towns the inspector will not issue a permit to a homeowner and there really is no recourse

As far a plumbing and gas goes there are no homeowner permits and I never herd of a homeowner being able to get an oil burner permit

pedmec

just want to chime in on a couple of issues, just to clarify.

regarding the big gas "issue" in Massachusetts. not done by plumbers. installed by unlicensed contractors working for local gas company. technically working under the master of record for the local gas company but not to required to be licensed as mass licensed plumbing and gasfitter jurisdiction is from the outlet of the gas meter. they installed a combination hi/low gas pressure valve in the street backwards. also happened 30 years ago on the northshore.
second. as explained to me from the state board. home centers can sell anything they want. its illegal to restrict the right of fair trade. but once you buy it doesn't mean it can be installed in your house legally. whats illegal in mass might not be in another state. mechanical vents are sold all over the state of mass but cannot be used in your plumbing system in Massachusetts.
and why you need a license in Massachusetts? look no further than just about every residential ductwork job in the state of ma. if i inspected every furnace installed per acca specifications i could fail 95 out of 100. no exaggeration. up until about 10-15 years ago there were no sheet metal permits or sheet metal board. it was a free for all. and most of the work is being done by so called professionals. how could you tell? most of these guys slash and burn that **** in. take the money and run. you really had to do your research. customer is left with half the rooms freezing and half their rooms overheating. and as far as the inspection of that side of the trade, its still a work in progress.

honestly, its not to protect us. its to protect you as a homeowner. the last thing you need is to do something that will put you and your family in danger. we have a hard enough time weeding out the dirtbags in our trade. even after all the training and all the hundreds of installs I've done i'm always concerned i'd miss something. even great tradesman make mistakes. i'm sure the plumber who unfortunately missed caulking the vent causing a young girls passing is wishing he could do it over again. it only takes one time. been doing this a very long time. been master plumber for a longgggg time. be safe.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@pedmec

I am in MA as well.

MA isn't perfect but compared to some states we are in great shape. I agree most all the older warm air jobs didn't work well and most of the ductwork was way undersized.

If you go on Utube look at "antiDIy HVAC" he is in NC I think. Most of the gas furnaces are in attics or nasty dirt crawl spaces

All the ductwork is horrible flex that's falling apart. The gas piping is gas tight that is strung all over the place and the electrical..................that's a whole nuther story. I surprised they don't have more fires or explosions. Just horrible,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and I think the charge 1 1/2 time what we get around here

ChrisJ

pecmsg said:

All permits define is Minimum standards!
All our jobs reach a much higher standard. 

I've seen this mentioned many times on this forum and I think it needs to be discussed.

Codes are the minimum that is ALLOWED not the minimum that will work.

Saying you need to exceed it is confusing. There are often times, especially in older buildings that even meeting code is literally impossible but you can still make things work properly. According to you this means the work done is a lower standard? Ask @Jamie Hall I'm sure he's seen it many times where you flat out cannot meet code, but you can make things work just fine. It's part of the real world.


But, some general examples of how I don't see any reason to exceed code.

Code says you need a 14 gauge wire on a 15A circuit.
That already has a huge safety margin built in. Saying you must always exceed it makes absolutely no sense unless it's a long run and you're concerned about excessive voltage drop.

This gets even more interesting when sizing for air conditioners etc with a built in overload and a start up current that may trip breakers so we're allowed to oversize the breakers. IE. a 30A breaker on a 12 gauge wire. It's code compliant and completely safe.



Plumbing codes are the same. For example, any time a 3" waste pipe is required are you saying we all should use no smaller than 4" just because?

Type L copper is to code, so we need to use type K?

In many areas for framing residential houses code calls for 2x6 exterior walls for insulation. Are you saying we need to do 2x8 or we're hacks?


We need to do work in a professional manner and meet the codes of the area. If we can do that we'll be far ahead.