Replace AC with R-410A or wait until next generation refrigerant is available?

wcweaver3

Hi - I have a 2300 square foot home in Pittsburgh built in 1940. The house is served by a Unico AC system with a 3 ton American Standard compressor outside using R22 refigerant. The unit was installed 17 years ago (2005).

While the AC system still works, given the age of it, I am inclined to replace it as I feel I am "stuck" with an outdated refrigerant and the unit is aging. Last summer, I had to replace the capacitor and given its age, I don't want to have it completely fail in August only to find out that the AC system I want is on backorder for three weeks.

I've gotten a number of bids and know I have to replace the Unico coil and blower in addition to the compressor. I've done the calculations and a heat pump doesn't seem to be worth it as the current heating system is a good, reliable gas boiler with radiators.

I see that in January, 2023, a phase out of the R-410A will begin. I am concerned that if I replace the R22 unit now with a R-410A unit, then I will then more or less be stuck with outdated technology in 2023 and beyond - kind of where I am right now with an R22 unit.

Two questions:
1) Should I be concerned and wait for the next generation refrigerant or go with the R-410A?

2) If I wait for the new generation refrigerant, which one would be the best bet as there seems to be more than one in the pipeline?

Thanks!

Ironman

Presently, almost all new equipment is still R410a, so it’s gonna be around for a good while.

With the present situation of waiting for weeks and months to get equipment, I’d recommend that you move now to replace it.

JUGHNE

There is still plenty of R-22 available, you will pay a good price for it.
But worth a top off rather than new system.

And IMO, 410A will be available for a long time. There are thousands of systems using it.

The equipment using both of these gases may be discontinued, but the gas itself is still be made....especially 410A.

I would go with the 410A change system, fairly well proven and installers are familiar with it.

I would not jump into a "new" gas.....one does not want to be on the "bleeding" edge of new tech.

I still am R-22, with comfortable stockpile on hand.

wmgeorge

Ditto what Ironman said, R410a is going to be around for a while and the replacement for it is a pretty close match, slightly flammable however.

wcweaver3

Many, many thanks! Really appreciate the thoughtful responses to settle my concern!

EBEBRATT-Ed

17 year old system in PA. I mean why not keep running it? Your not in Atlanta. Just because you replaced the capacitor doesn't mean the whole system is going to fail.

If you have had any refrigerant leaks/repairs then I would replace it.

Stuff here in New England (and PA is probably the same) will last for 40 years if maintained

wmgeorge

Agree what Ed posted above, my old R22 Lennox was 23 years old or so when I replaced and that is here in Iowa.

ethicalpaul

It’s a pity about 410a— it’s a horrible greenhouse gas. We traded ozone-harming for slow cooking, a real no-win.

And there must be millions or tens of millions or hundreds of millions in use (and growing). The pressure it has to run at practically ensures a greater loss due to leakage which leads to lots of topping off rather than finding and fixing the leaks I fear.

I see no reference to 410a being phased out. I see a reference to Carrier’s possible next refrigerant in 2023 but that’s it.

pecmsg

ethicalpaul said:

It’s a pity about 410a— it’s a horrible greenhouse gas. We traded ozone-harming for slow cooking, a real no-win.

And there must be millions or tens of millions or hundreds of millions in use (and growing). The pressure it has to run at practically ensures a greater loss due to leakage which leads to lots of topping off rather than finding and fixing the leaks I fear.

I see no reference to 410a being phased out. I see a reference to Carrier’s possible next refrigerant in 2023 but that’s it.

https://www.trane.com/content/dam/Trane/Commercial/global/newsroom/blogs/Documents 2018/HVAC Industry Update.pdf

Beginning 2024 completed 2034

wmgeorge

With the recent world changes, I think Greenhouse gases are going to be the least of our worries.

ChrisJ

wmgeorge said:

With the recent world changes, I think Greenhouse gases are going to be the least of our worries.

What are all these changes you keep talking about?

SuperTech

I wouldn't be concerned about installing a R410A system right now. When the phase out begins the next refrigerant will be one of the refrigerants that is blended to make R410A, so compressor oil compatibility won't be an issue. If you need to change over to the next generation of refrigerants it will probably be just a matter of changing the metering device. 

STEVEusaPA

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

...Stuff here in New England (and PA is probably the same) will last for 40 years if maintained

Some lasts longer even when not maintained.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@ethicalpaul

I agree about the topping off........there should be enforced strong limits put on that. Charging up the same leakers is wrong.

Here's the problem. you watch you tube videos and all they do is charge and go, They either do that or they insist on replacing the equipment.

With labor rate being what they are they don't want to take the time to search for leaks

And a lot of the equipment even the new stuff is junk, Evaporator coil leak on some brands, Condenser leaks with micro channel coils etc

I ran the same R-22 system at my house for 34 years and I had a capacitor failure. Original everything else and never added a drop of refrigerant.

Sloppy work by the technicians and customers that don't maintain there equipment along with lower quality equipment and that's what you get.

jumper

Cool guys top off R22 with propane. Fuel grade is less expensive than refrigerant grade.
Just don't tell anyone if you fear getting into trouble.

pecmsg

jumper said:

Cool guys top off R22 with propane. Fuel grade is less expensive than refrigerant grade. Just don't tell anyone if you fear getting into trouble.

W H A T ?

JUGHNE

That is a fairly outrageous statement.....
I always thought propane more closely matched R-12 than R-22.

We should remember that many DIY people look at these posts and would try that top off......hopefully they know that is not a good idea.

Famous quote from bomb vest maker: "Now watch carefully, pay attention, I am going to do this only once"

Although some new gases are flammable....how much IDK....glad to be close to the rocking chair.
I watched a pro Utube doing some flammable recharge, it was near bomb disposal techniques.

pecmsg

JUGHNE said:

That is a fairly outrageous statement..... I always thought propane more closely matched R-12 than R-22. We should remember that many DIY people look at these posts and would try that top off......hopefully they know that is not a good idea. Famous quote from bomb vest maker: "Now watch carefully, pay attention, I am going to do this only once" Although some new gases are flammable....how much IDK....glad to be close to the rocking chair. I watched a pro Utube doing some flammable recharge, it was near bomb disposal techniques.

Along with this R-290 AKA Propane is limited to 500 Grams total charge.  

Do NOT use it as a replacement for any refrigerant!

pecmsg

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@ethicalpaul I agree about the topping off........there should be enforced strong limits put on that. Charging up the same leakers is wrong. Here's the problem. you watch you tube videos and all they do is charge and go, They either do that or they insist on replacing the equipment. With labor rate being what they are they don't want to take the time to search for leaks And a lot of the equipment even the new stuff is junk, Evaporator coil leak on some brands, Condenser leaks with micro channel coils etc I ran the same R-22 system at my house for 34 years and I had a capacitor failure. Original everything else and never added a drop of refrigerant. Sloppy work by the technicians and customers that don't maintain there equipment along with lower quality equipment and that's what you get.

Topping of is perfectly legal on systems containing less then 50#’s. 

I agree morally wrong but legal!

JUGHNE

Years ago there were warnings of topping off blends as the composition of the gas may have changed.
The recommended fix was to recover and recharge with virgin gas.

We all know this may not happen.

Do you feel the "top off" being detrimental to operation?

And what point of loss truly would cause problems by topping off, IYO?

pecmsg

JUGHNE said:

Years ago there were warnings of topping off blends as the composition of the gas may have changed. The recommended fix was to recover and recharge with virgin gas. We all know this may not happen. Do you feel the "top off" being detrimental to operation? And what point of loss truly would cause problems by topping off, IYO?

That depends on the refrigerant in use, 410a, 404A not an issue. 407a, b &c possibly. 

JUGHNE

410A.....well there is that possibility that happens a lot.
I feel "greener" now that you say that.

wmgeorge

Propane is usually used for a R12 replacement. Lots of flammable refrigerants used in Europe and coming soon as a replacement for R410a.
Been EPA approved for a long time since 2011 and yes you can use as a refrigerant and 500 grams is 17.6 oz.
https://heatingnewsjournal.com/propane-as-a-refrigerant-whats-not-to-love/