Heat Pumps Designed to Last More Than 15 years??

mcho

Does anyone know of a manufacturer who makes heat pumps designed to last? That are not engineered to be thrown away after 15 years? Even the DOE says that heat pumps should be replaced every fifteen years. Ridiculous!! As an Engineer I know that cannot be true unless some components are especially designed to fail (although it might be true for the easily replaced compressor). Is there anybody who hasn't drunk the Koolaid and is designing for reliability?

Jamie Hall

The question isn't can you design a heat pump -- or whatever -- to last more than 15 years and then build it; the answer to that is of course you can. The question is can you build it at a competitive price? Like it or not, most folks are going to take price into consideration when buying something. Also, like it or not, there aren't all that many folks who don't expect to move within 10 years or so. So why should they pay a premium for something which they won't be able to use? And the odds are the next folks are going to want to upgrade...

mcho

I understand. Jamie. But I thought in every field there was a company that stood out, like Starrett or Rolls Royce where quality was more important than price. I just didn't know if such existed in the heat pump market. There is always a market for quality, and smart people are always willing to trade dollars for reliability because it is always cheaper. I buy Lie Nielsen planes instead of Stanley and they are worth every penny. I don't want my wife to have to deal with the heat pump after I die.

PS every person I know has lived in their homes for 20-40 years or more. Of course I am old but I am talking about co-workers, friends and family. Where are people constantly moving every ten years? I have not met them!

Hot_water_fan

There is always a market for quality, and smart people are always willing to trade dollars for reliability because it is always cheaper.

I wouldn’t moralize this, people have great reasons for not purchasing “quality”, it doesn’t make them less smart. Often it isn’t cheaper to buy “more durable,” it depends on the product and the person. 

hot_rod

Maybe the hp manufacturers take a page from the water heater playbook, offer a longer warranty on the equipment for $$ The same tank is sold as a 5 or 10 year, the manufacturer plays the odds. Most manufacturers offer HVAC warranty out 10 years, aftermarket warranties can also be purchased to extend that. Parts availability after 15, even 10 years may be a problem. Would you pay double for a 20 year HP?

mcho

Sorry HotWaterFan. I did not mean to imply that if you buy cheap you are not smart. There are sensible and smart reasons to buy cheap. But if it is something you will always need, its not disposable, and even the cheap is expensive (for the average person) it makes sense to buy the best you an afford. And sometimes the best is not the most expensive.

My Toyota Echo cost me 11,500 dollars in 2002 and I just donated it to PBS 20 years later with 275,000 miles on it, even though it ran as good as the day I bought it. This was because my wife wanted me to have a new car (not sure why since she had her own new car). The car had never needed any sort of repair other than the usual maintenance listed in the owner's manual. Then I bought a Honda Civic for 17,500 dollars because it had the highest reliability rating of any car in Consumer Reports. So quality is not always the most expensive when there is fair and honest competition.

mcho

Yup HotRod, I have run into with my rental property. The 1997 heat pump compressor quit exactly at the 15 year mark in 2012. Every HVAC guy that came out told me that they could not get the compressor and I needed a whole new unit. I didn't hire any of them since I thought they were dishonest (I did not realize at that time that it was an Industry-wide scam).

It took me 5 minutes on Google to locate and buy the compressor (available from both Amazon and Sears). Then I used my connection to Oakridge to find a licensed journeyman from the union hall to install it for me. Now its almost 10 years later and I looked again because the capacitor failed (after 25 years). The compressor is now available from three stores. By the way the HVAC guy charged me 100 dollars for 10 minutes work and 100 dollars for a 20 dollar capacitor (I looked it up at Sears - its even cheaper on Amazon). Big city prices in rural Tennessee. He won't get anymore work from me.

But I will need to buy a new unit soon because I cannot replace the compressor again because of the Freon issue. But I am starting to get the idea from your posts that there is no such thing as a heat pump that is not designed to fail.

wmgeorge

Air source heat pump sits outside in all sorts of weather and run. They run in the Summer and Winter, so where you might get 30 years out of a AC compressor, you will get only get 15 years out of a heat pump. Motors and compressors wear as they run. If you went out to your Toyota, and started the engine and let it run for 15 years with no oil changes, how long do you think it would run?

Why were you advised to replace the unit rather than the compressor after 15 years? We have learned by the time you recover the refrigerant, remove and install the new, recharge and etc you have nearly 1/2 the cost of a new condensing unit. Then next month when the fan motor stops running or a circuit board goes bad in that 15-year-old unit the customer will say, I just spent $900 for a new compressor and now I am spending EVEN more money and so on. Customers do not understand things wear.

Geothermal heat pumps tend to last longer as they sit inside a nice cozy house with none of the defrost cycles.

BTW if you thinking being a serviceman or woman is a gravy job then join the crowd and enjoy listening to the customers.

ratio

Nobody want longevity. The HVAC market is so big that if even ten percent of the consumers had longevity as the driving factor, there'd be a company in that niche.

ChrisJ

As best I can tell, for residential they're all pretty much the same.

For example, typical residential air conditioner / heat pumps all use the same compressor, same contactor etc. Not sure who makes the condenser, those do vary but they all seem to be comparable in quality. Even the PCB's seemed to be mainly made by Emerson, which is who owns Copeland.

Honestly, the compressor isn't easily replaceable but actually seems to be the most reliable part of the mess. Most these days are Copeland scroll compressors. Like anything, some actually do fail for no reason, but usually if a compressor dies, it's due to something external like refrigerant flooding back etc.

The least reliable part seems to be capacitors, followed by the evaporator, followed by the condenser. Fan motors die, but I'm not sure where they are on the list.


I have no idea about minisplits and inverter units. That's a whole other ballpark.


Can they make a heat pump that will go much longer than 15 years?
Yes. Easily.

People don't want to pay for it and even if they did companies don't want it. It's not in their best interest.

ChrisJ

wmgeorge said:

Air source heat pump sits outside in all sorts of weather and run. They run in the Summer and Winter, so where you might get 30 years out of a AC compressor, you will get only get 15 years out of a heat pump. Motors and compressors wear as they run. If you went out to your Toyota, and started the engine and let it run for 15 years with no oil changes, how long do you think it would run?

Why were you advised to replace the unit rather than the compressor after 15 years? We have learned by the time you recover the refrigerant, remove and install the new, recharge and etc you have nearly 1/2 the cost of a new condensing unit. Then next month when the fan motor stops running or a circuit board goes bad in that 15-year-old unit the customer will say, I just spent $900 for a new compressor and now I am spending EVEN more money and so on. Customers do not understand things wear.

Geothermal heat pumps tend to last longer as they sit inside a nice cozy house with none of the defrost cycles.

BTW if you thinking being a serviceman or woman is a gravy job then join the crowd and enjoy listening to the customers.

The oil comparison on the Toyota is a bad example.
Refrigeration oil doesn't get contaminated by moisture, fuel, carbon etc and honestly, really never needs to be changed like it does in an engine. My machines are purring along perfectly happy on 89 year old mineral oil. Technically, mineral oil with a small percentage of lard.

wmgeorge

FYI they do make heat pumps that last longer than 15 years. I have worked on commercial Carrier rooftops and replaced or rebuilt (semi-hematic) compressors on those. Are you ready to pay $20,000? Compressors and motors wear, a fact. If you do not understand that.... do you work on refrigeration or AC?

ChrisJ

wmgeorge said:

FYI they do make heat pumps that last longer than 15 years. I have worked on commercial Carrier rooftops and replaced or rebuilt (semi-hematic) compressors on those. Are you ready to pay $20,000? Compressors and motors wear, a fact. If you do not understand that.... do you work on refrigeration or AC?

Check our older PM's.

pecmsg

can units be manufactured to last over 15 years YES. 

Unfortunately Uncle Sams energy requirements 
make it impossible without paying 3 or 4 times as much. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

Compressors rarely "go bad". Compressors have a "Design envelope" that they must run in if they are going to last.

1 Correct superheat
2 correct suction pressure
3 discharge pressure

And not more than a normal # of starts and stops. Short cycling will kill compressors


If the superheat, suction and discharge pressures are kept in a normal range they can last 30-40 years easily


But to keep the compressor running in a normal range requires Maintenance which most neglect or refuse to do because they don't want to pay for it.

A big part of AC/Refrigeration service is maintenance, clean filters, clean coils and heat exchangers no short cycling etc and they can live a long happy life

DWHorst

I agree 100%. I am a commercial ice machine and refrigeration tech and my home A/C has a mfg date of 12/91. I service it annually and keep indoor and outdoor coils clean and filters changed regularly. I have replaced capacitors a fan relay and the indoor evap fan motor. I am considering replacing the unit this year with a more efficient unit. I'm in St Louis so you know it takes a beating.

JakeCK

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Compressors rarely "go bad". Compressors have a "Design envelope" that they must run in if they are going to last. 1 Correct superheat 2 correct suction pressure 3 discharge pressure And not more than a normal # of starts and stops. Short cycling will kill compressors If the superheat, suction and discharge pressures are kept in a normal range they can last 30-40 years easily But to keep the compressor running in a normal range requires Maintenance which most neglect or refuse to do because they don't want to pay for it. A big part of AC/Refrigeration service is maintenance, clean filters, clean coils and heat exchangers no short cycling etc and they can live a long happy life

I wonder how long my hpwh will last with my schedule that shuts it off after 9pm and turns it back on at 9am. It has maybe two cycles a day right now when it recovers to 140f :P I will admit it has taken some habit changes to work with that schedule. 

mattmia2

DWHorst said:

I agree 100%. I am a commercial ice machine and refrigeration tech and my home A/C has a mfg date of 12/91. I service it annually and keep indoor and outdoor coils clean and filters changed regularly. I have replaced capacitors a fan relay and the indoor evap fan motor. I am considering replacing the unit this year with a more efficient unit. I'm in St Louis so you know it takes a beating.

I wouldn't replace it unless someone here comes up with an evaporator and condenser made with tubing that doesn't leak.

JK_Brown

Where's the profit in making a reliable 15+ yr system? Manufacturers are making parts a profit center since you now have to buy their ECM motor not a commodity one for the chip programming. Plus, in 15 yrs the refrigerant will be outlawed and you'll need a new system anyway if you need refrigerant added.

ayetchvacker

If you have a heat pump thats 30 years old (I know of a few) the issue becomes efficiency. Heat pumps have been re-engineered 10 times in the past 30 years. Same as driving a 1972 Dodge Dart. Last forever but who wants to deal with manual brakes and stopping for gas every day. There are downsides to keeping equipment for too long. But to each their own. 

LS123

Old things of all tend to last, especially some cars and heating steam and water heating boilers that were made back in 1940, 50, 60s. For example my bother and I had a 1940 One ton Ford pick up truck (three gears foward, one for reverse and double clutch.... It had a engine bock, some spark plugs, alternator and a battery, and crank starter as well, no seat belts, we could not figure out how many miles per gallon it gave... because it didnt go faster than 45 mph. The thing is technologies these days change so rapidly, and most people are comfortable with paying less and just get new products with new bells and whistles... good example of it are cell phone, and auto mobile industry... people keep buying new once... on a new car these days are, even impossible to change oil or transmission fuel (which supposed to last 100K) without having to have expensive tools or go to a certified mechanics, let alone if you can get you hand anywhere in side the hood, without getting my hand stuck... I am guessing same applies to residential heating / cooling systems these days.

ChrisJ

LS123 said:

Old things of all tend to last, especially some cars and heating steam and water heating boilers that were made back in 1940, 50, 60s. For example my bother and I had a 1940 One ton Ford pick up truck (three gears foward, one for reverse and double clutch.... It had a engine bock, some spark plugs, alternator and a battery, and crank starter as well, no seat belts, we could not figure out how many miles per gallon it gave... because it didnt go faster than 45 mph. The thing is technologies these days change so rapidly, and most people are comfortable with paying less and just get new products with new bells and whistles... good example of it are cell phone, and auto mobile industry... people keep buying new once... on a new car these days are, even impossible to change oil or transmission fuel (which supposed to last 100K) without having to have expensive tools or go to a certified mechanics, let alone if you can get you hand anywhere in side the hood, without getting my hand stuck... I am guessing same applies to residential heating / cooling systems these days.

I've yet to own a modern car that couldn't have the spark plugs and oil changed with the most basic tools.
Automatic transmission no idea as all of mine have been manual, but I know that was a pain on 1960s-80s cars.

LS123

actually the ford truck and the steam boiler are both over 30 years older than I. I also prefer manual shift. Its almost impossible to find new car, unless its Tiptronic... but no clutch.... I have a old 1985 Honda Civic over 200K miles with beefed up engine customized with Nito. I do not drive it, its in the garage, and used to be hobby racing car club at Lime Rock race track in CT... https://limerock.com/... always nice to have things that last for a while that was made while back, including boilers etc...