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solar electricity will become more expensive

jumper
jumper Member Posts: 1,911
California PUC is discussing making solar electricity consumers help pay for enjoying the grid. About half one's electric bill is for transmission and distribution. So even if a homeowner is net zero she'll pay for about half her consumption. Eventually Californians will have to pay even if they're off the grid? Folks who can be forced to pay must pay. And folks who cannot get free stuff ?

I've been expecting something like this for a long time. Maintained that solar & grid mix not nice.
delcrossv

Comments

  • Hot_water_fan
    Hot_water_fan Member Posts: 1,013
    With California’s rates and sunshine, I think solar pencils out there well regardless. 
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,911

    With California’s rates and sunshine, I think solar pencils out there well regardless. 

    Yes California's rates are so high that any reduction may pay.
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,092
    Nothing is free... someone is paying.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,477
    This is hardly news.... it's not just solar which will go up, it's all your energy costs. Sometimes dramatically (the UK is set to see rates rise at about 50% every six months for the next little while, and continental Europe is not far below that).
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,227
    Fine, as long as the power company pays retail to all the PV owners that put power in the grid when the utility is coming up shy.

    My utility offered to cover the cost of some batteries. In the fine print is stated they have access to your batteries anytime to supplement their grid. So the grid goes down or browns out and I got zip in my battery bank.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 13,146
    Europe. Once they get the Russian gas pipeline they will be all set. Stupid move Russia will own them
    delcrossvbucksnortMaxMercyDerheatmeister
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 502
    edited January 2022
    Germany:
    Install Solar
    Remove nuclear
    Burn lignite- lots of lignite.

    🙄🤣

    Looks like CA is doing wash, rinse, repeat.
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
    MaxMercy
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,911
    If your solar is totally unconnected to grid then you may escape total consumption and maximum demand fees?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,227
    If there is no power to your property you should not pay, off grinders don’t pay in the area I lived.

    Although I imagine tax money makes its way to utilities.



    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Derheatmeister
  • MikefromMn
    MikefromMn Member Posts: 9
    All these electric cars are going to have start paying a use tax for the roads, they're aren't paying any gas taxes. Not surprised to see solar users have to pay their part for the grid. My electric company charges a $45 a month availability of power charge - whether you use any power or not.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,477
    edited January 2022
    Useful to remember a few things in general...

    There is no free lunch

    If you're not paying, you're not controlling

    The power to tax is the power to control

    The one who pays the piper is the one who calls the tune
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    MaxMercy
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,227
    Is there any power company that isn’t adding some sort of surcharge? Different names for those charges, these fees didn’t exist years ago, all the cost was in the kWh number. Somewhere, somehow we all pay. It is not unusual to see the fees add up to more than the kWh used

    So which does the consumer best swallow. The utilities with their teams of attorneys and accountants set up and agreed to the FITS, seems they should have seen this increase in demand for electrification and better planned for new generation and grid.

    At the end of the day I expect to pay a fair price based on what it actually cost. I belonged to a small electric Co Op in Missouri, they did an excellent job of explaining the cost of the power you got billed for. Regardless, the utility costs are not usually negotiable
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,927
    edited January 2022
    I have a problem. I have the dangest time getting my solar setup to charge at night. I'm working on a solution, tho. Solar ain't never gonna cut it. It only works half the time, like my brother in law. Nuclear is the only satisfactory solution without cold fusion in replacing fossil fuels. The world runs on energy. Without it, you'll be rubbing two sticks together to roast that Brontosaurus.

    The whole energy thing is politicized. Like J P Morgan said to Tesla, " How are we going to charge for all that free energy?" hmmm! Don't underestimate the ingenuity of man.

    I'm looking out of the window at the 10 ft of snow we got. When the lights go out, it might be better to live closer to the equator.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,477
    @HomerJSmith -- can't you just shine a floodlight on that solar array at night? That might work... >:)
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    MaxMercydelta T
  • ethicalpaul
    ethicalpaul Member Posts: 4,208

    All these electric cars are going to have start paying a use tax for the roads, they're aren't paying any gas taxes. Not surprised to see solar users have to pay their part for the grid. My electric company charges a $45 a month availability of power charge - whether you use any power or not.

    It's a myth that gas taxes pay for roads. First, gas taxes are diverted to other things. Second, even if all the gas taxes were used to pay for roads, it wouldn't cover it.

    So don't hate on the electric cars. Their light footprint isn't hurting the roads anyway.

    https://frontiergroup.org/reports/fg/who-pays-roads
    1 pipe Peerless 63-03L in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
    lkstdl
  • JDHW
    JDHW Member Posts: 57
    I can't help but feel that renewable technologies are being planned and deployed piecemeal then when some, completely foreseeable consequence to an engineer, problem comes along there is another knee jerk fix deployed. Rinse and repeat.

    UK slightly different to USA but physics is the same and the solutions will be the same as well.

    Electricity market in the UK is really 4 separate sectors: long distance power transmission, generators, distribution companies and the companies that actually sell power. There is a bit of overlap between the generators and companies selling power to customers. Consumer picks a supplier and typically pays a two part bill one fixed amount for the provision of service and a component based on usage. The bulk of the cost for most is the amount of energy used.

    When you start putting solar panels on houses the role of the distribution companies changes from unidirectional power flow to customers to bidirectional. All the margins for voltage drops that are built into the system no longer work and the distribution networks need to be strengthened. Also, distribution companies don't like generators on their system because there is a risk of an island of power generation that is outside their control and can potentially kill their workforce.

    To promote green heating and supply of electricity a UK scheme called the renewable heat initiative (RHI) that provides subsidies to people to use these green technologies. For electricity (PV) where offered £0.35 per kWH for all power generated when typical retail costs for electricity were about £0.15 per kWH. This system has been tapered down to zero. So now electricity costs around £0.22 per kHW (and this is really going to go up soon) and payment of PV is £0.05 per kWH. To encourage this green world there were some rules introduced that allow anyone to connect up to 3.6 kW of generation of an "approved type" without requiring the lengthy and potentially risky approval process of the distribution companies.

    The "approved" form of local generation had some really tight limits on acceptable voltage, frequency and rate of change of frequency to try and offset the risks of island operation. What could possibly go wrong? Well when there is a problem on the national power system such as the failure of a big generator the frequency will drop a bit while backup sources come online and cover the shortfall. The PV with really tight limits also disconnects and makes the situation much worse. Now the limits have been relaxed but there is no easy way to update the already installed systems!

    Anyone want to hear about "SMART" metering that measure consumption and generation over 1/2 hour intervals and disconnect you remotely?

    John


  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 669
    edited January 2022

    Nuclear is the only satisfactory solution without cold fusion in replacing fossil fuels.

    How about a new kind of nuclear plant? Cooled by liquid sodium. Coming soon (2028) to a little town in Wyoming.
    https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/west/in-tiny-wyoming-town-bill-gates-bets-big-on-nuclear-power/
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,336

    …Their light footprint isn't hurting the roads anyway.

    Ummmmm… https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,477
    Interesting, @ratio . I knew they were heavy, relatively speaking, but I'd never followed up to find out how heavy. The heaviest of them is not all that much lighter than my K2500 Superduty!
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,336
    The Nissan Leaf my brother got to bring home from work one week can go toe to toe with a full-sized pickup. But hey, it's green!
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 669
    edited January 2022

    my K2500 Superduty!

    Is that a Fordrolet or a Chevord?
    ratio
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,477
    Actually not sure what Chevy called it. It's a K2500 "Silverado" -- but they came (it's a '94) in two flavours -- the ordinary one, but then a much heavier duty one -- only available with the 7.4 litre engine, Allison 4 speed automatic with hydraulic hill retarder (4L80, I believe it is), heavier torsion bars and rear springs. The only visible difference was 8 bolt wheels instead of 6 bolt. And an extra 1500 pounds load capacity in the truck (4,000 payload) -- and 16,500 pound trailer limit. It's a beast. I love it -- still going strong.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    WMno57ratio
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,130
    ratio said:
    …Their light footprint isn't hurting the roads anyway.
    Ummmmm… https://insideevs.com/news/527966/electric-cars-from-heaviest-lightest/

    I was gonna say, the weight is the primary reason you see Tesla's beating f150's in tractor pulls. 

    Let's drop a ton of gravel in the back of that f150 with a driver that knows what 4lo is and how to control it it and let's see what happens.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,227
    I have a problem. I have the dangest time getting my solar setup to charge at night. I'm working on a solution, tho. Solar ain't never gonna cut it. It only works half the time, like my brother in law. Nuclear is the only satisfactory solution without cold fusion in replacing fossil fuels. The world runs on energy. Without it, you'll be rubbing two sticks together to roast that Brontosaurus. The whole energy thing is politicized. Like J P Morgan said to Tesla, " How are we going to charge for all that free energy?" hmmm! Don't underestimate the ingenuity of man. I'm looking out of the window at the 10 ft of snow we got. When the lights go out, it might be better to live closer to the equator.
    Its all the point of use “peak shaving” that utilities were enamored with when residential PV starting on roofs through out their grid. Power goes from roof top directly into their grid at 240v

    Their brownouts around here and So Cal were on sunny days with everyone running AC set at 70 degrees. Solar is still a good match for those loads and time of day. Even the peaking NG generators still need to ramp up a turbine and generator. Coal plants need hours to bring on additional steam- power to try and catch the brown outs, then the load drops and they need to ramp them back. 

    At sun down factories and heavy power users drop off and the grid can keep up with residential loads.
    interesting which states lead in wind, solar and electric vehicles ownership, and the money source backing them.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Hot_water_fan
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,477
    Ecclesiastes 3: 1-8. Or Pete Seeger's "Turn, turn, turn"
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 669
    edited January 2022

    8 bolt wheels

    Today I noticed a new advertisement on the Wall for General Motors new Electric Silverado. As a lifelong GM fan and someone who currently has a wager on Mary Barra and GM, I had to click on it. It takes you to the GM Fleet site. Lots of pictures of the new Electric Silverado WORK TRUCK. This is not the fancy pants version that was shown at the recent Consumer Electronics Show. Guess what? 8 BOLT wheels! They appear to be steel. Check it out. I won't post a link here. Go to the Wall and click on the advertisement. This way @Erin Holohan Haskell will get advertisement revenue.
    Correction, this ad was at the bottom of the Wall. Those ads may be selected for you by your browser or search engine.
    https://www.gmfleet.com/trucks/all-electric-chevrolet-silverado