Here is what's going to replace boilers in NYC Housing

leonz

DanHolohan said:

I wonder if they'll leave the vacuum steam systems in place as a backup. And if so, will they maintain those systems, or just leave them in place as artifacts. We're talking big numbers here and this is just the start.

https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2021/12/22/nycha-looks-to-clean-technology-for-heating-and-cooling#

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I rolled over and busted a gut with this. They will have as much success as the tenants in my brothers buildings when the temperature drops to 32 degrees Fahrenheit or below; they all require supplemental heating with thier mini splits.

My opinion; It's not too late for them to build a district heating plant for each building or block of buildings with a Hurst scotch marine boiler(shell and tube) where they could generate electricity with the smaller steam turbine exhaust as well to feed back into the grid.

DanHolohan

They've made up their minds and they don't want to talk about anything else. At this point, I'm just an interested observer.

cross_skier

I blame Tesla, lot of buzz about their fabulous heat pump and octovalve

https://insideevs.com/news/452464/tesla-model-y-heat-pump-system-details/

Jamie Hall

DanHolohan said:

They've made up their minds and they don't want to talk about anything else. At this point, I'm just an interested observer.

At least you're interested, @DanHolohan . I'm just disgusted.

JakeCK

cross_skier said:

I blame Tesla, lot of buzz about their fabulous heat pump and octovalve

https://insideevs.com/news/452464/tesla-model-y-heat-pump-system-details/

I don't see how that is relevant? Sounds like Tesla is just maximizing thermal performance of their vehicle.

DanHolohan

Well, @Jamie Hall, that too.

cross_skier

@JakeCK I think the casual observer doesn't get into the technical details.  They just make a few observations and think they have spotted a trend.

JakeCK

cross_skier said:

@JakeCK I think the casual observer doesn't get into the technical details.  They just make a few observations and think they have spotted a trend.

Well there is a trend toward greater use of heat pumps. It is an amazing technology and is easily three times as efficient than other technologies. However regardless of efficiency it is a tool and like every tool has to be used in the right application. Heating very old buildings with questionable electric service and questionable maintenance is... whatever you want to call it. But blaming Tesla is like blaming a hammer manufacturer for people hammering a screw.

cross_skier

True.  Tesla is a brand the world celebrates and is closely followed.

"Blame" was probably not the best choice of words

Zman

Those glorified PTACs would be a great solution if...
The building had the electrical infrastructure to handle a COP <1.0 on the cold days and the grid could handle the extra load.
Since neither is true, what are they thinking?

I am having the same discussions where I live, deep in Zone 7. I have been practicing explaining it to my dog. I am pretty sure he understands the problem (he is nodding his head at the right time), the "electrify everything" folks are still staring into the headlights

The Steam Whisperer

What I took from Jake and what I have seen....Is that everything is getting dumbed down in the trades. It takes knowledge to get a steam system to operate properly and the rush for cheap and to not spend on infrastructure over the past 40 or 50 years undergirds this movement. I am all for eliminating infrastructure where its not needed or beneficial...this is progress and would help eliminate some potentially very undemocratic structures from our society. But to make decisions on clearly false information and to the defend those decisions and ignore some of the most knowledgable people in the building field in NYC (for example Dan and Jake) is clearly destructive to advancement.
The NYCHA has a tremendous opportunity to create real life trials of what works best to reach goals of reduced emissions and costs. They could apply different technologies to neighboring identical buildings and come up with real unbiased results ( or at least much better than most) They appear to be throwing away this opportunity.

I used to believe that New York City was taking a world wide lead in advancing great cities to reduce thier environmental impact, but this move by the NYCHA is deeply disturbing and I believe this will lose this distinction for the city. The Chicago Housing Authority made a similar decision for thier hi rise buildings in the past. Those high rises are now all gone.

It looks like Chicago may soon be taking that lead, even with the many poorly researched moves that are taking place here. Chicago has been conducting side by side tests with retrofit technologies for standard structures for over a decade and has solid data on which to base decisions. This information is finally spilling into energy conservation programs required by state laws and I expect will have a great long term impact.

I am sorry to say that New York City may well be on its way to having the "Second City" move beyond it in advancing building technology in the energy field. Things like on site and grid connected solar are already a reality here, smart control of the electrical grid is steadily expanding building by building and implementation of highly effective energy conservation programs to reduce heating and cooling loads for single family homes ( 30% typical reductions) and other larger buildings are starting to get honed in. Another interesting related bit is that there appears that the number of contractors in Chicago that know steam is growing. It's still tiny, but it seems some of the younger generation are better at it than the supposed old pros.
Chicago is full of "Greenies" that are still following the pop trends like the HYCHA appears to be following, but slowly real advancement is creeping in.

EBEBRATT-Ed

There one HUGE difference.

heating a building is not just heating a building.

Yeah, most residential houses heat it with FHW, FHA, Steam, Heat pumps, electric, whatever you may get some complaints but it will work reasonably well if designed right.

Anyone with experience with brick or masonary buildings will find that you cannot heat them with FHA or heat pumps succesfully

The walls are cold especially older buildings like the ones in question.

If you don't have perimiter heat, steam, hot water or electric the tennents will be a lot more than unhappy.

They will twist the knobs of the heat pumps trying to get warm which they never will.

You may get the air temp to 70 but the walls will feel like standing next to an ice cube.

Been their done that tried that.

I don't believe air-air heat pumps are viable in a cold climate.

Air-water yes