Here is what's going to replace boilers in NYC Housing

DanHolohan

I wonder if they'll leave the vacuum steam systems in place as a backup. And if so, will they maintain those systems, or just leave them in place as artifacts. We're talking big numbers here and this is just the start.

https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2021/12/22/nycha-looks-to-clean-technology-for-heating-and-cooling#

TAG

Nice looking !

This will be a disaster ...... how many will walk. How many at any given time will not work. Don't see it as progress. Naturally the city will go all in .... it's only money.

The sound level outside will be nice as well with 100 of them running

pecmsg

And they just shut down the Indian Point Plant! Where are they building the new one?

DanHolohan

For those of you who are not familiar with NYC, this is one of many NYC Housing Authority projects.

ethicalpaul

I would be more sympathetic to the idea that this is crazy if I didn't hear so many stories of completely fouled up steam systems in NYC apartment buildings with supers or co-op boards that have no interest in getting them working like they should. @JohnNY knows.

So many apartments have no AC, if I lived in one, I would pray that they installed one of these in mine.

JUGHNE

I have always wondered if there are any safety cables on these things?
Would a heap pump reach terminal velocity falling 11 NYC stories?

And how is the wiring in these places?

DanHolohan

I don't know what shape the wiring is in now. My grandmother lived in one of these projects with my aunt. The wiring was original (early '60s).

Here's how NYCHA came to be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Housing_Authority

cross_skier

Attitudes towards AC have shifted in the last decade from "nice to have" to "everyone needs to have" IMO

DanHolohan

Yes, there are often many window units dangling precariously. 
http://www.nypress.com/news/fighting-falling-air-conditioners-OCNP1020120712307129992

EBEBRATT-Ed

There not going to have a enough power to run all of those units.

Do they even realize how much power those units will take?

The filters will never be maintained and the units will be trashed in 6 months.

A big investment with no gain.

There will be plenty of work when they fail and have to get the steam working again

ethicalpaul

cross_skier said:

Attitudes towards AC have shifted in the last decade from "nice to have" to "everyone needs to have" IMO

Temperatures in NYC have shifted a lot in the last few decades too. Upwards. It was never fun not to have AC in NYC but now it's worse than ever. But they are just poor people, right, so why shouldn't they suffer?

JohnNY

I get calls from an agency that connects attorneys to those able to provide expert witness testimony in law suits.
I get a fee for inspecting NYCHA apartments for safety and code compliance so I get to go into a lot of the buildings, boiler rooms, and apartments. Perhaps it's due to the nature of why I'm there, but all I ever see is apartment after apartment in a remarkable state of disrepair. Big holes in the floors and ceilings, haphazardly mounted grab bars for elderly tenants, faucets that don't work, buckets under leaking drains, gas shut off to cooking ranges while residents cook on electric hot plates that blow fuses constantly. The list goes on.
It's real nice that we're making advances on getting our impact on the environment under control, but the fact this is what the City has decided to sink money into for these particular buildings is, in my opinion, highly misguided. $3,000 per unit to purchase? First of all, the light from the windows is in some cases the best part of these apartments and will be drastically reduced by a window unit like this. These apartments are already depressing little caves. Why not put that money into making NYCHA housing livable and let the private sector take on the expense of trying out new technology. This is one of the good ones:

DanHolohan

$3,000 per room.

JohnNY

DanHolohan said:

$3,000 per room.

Unfathomable.

JakeCK

JohnNY said:

I get calls from an agency that connects attorneys to those able to provide expert witness testimony in law suits. I get a fee for inspecting NYCHA apartments for safety and code compliance so I get to go into a lot of the buildings, boiler rooms, and apartments. Perhaps it's due to the nature of why I'm there, but all I ever see is apartment after apartment in a remarkable state of disrepair. Big holes in the floors and ceilings, haphazardly mounted grab bars for elderly tenants, faucets that don't work, buckets under leaking drains, gas shut off to cooking ranges while residents cook on electric hot plates that blow fuses constantly. The list goes on. It's real nice that we're making advances on getting our impact on the environment under control, but the fact this is what the City has decided to sink money into for these particular buildings is, in my opinion, highly misguided. $3,000 per unit to purchase? First of all, the light from the windows is in some cases the best part of these apartments and will be drastically reduced by a window unit like this. These apartments are already depressing little caves. Why not put that money into making NYCHA housing livable and let the private sector take on the expense of trying out new technology. This is one of the good ones: l

Is that the plumbing for the tub/shower, and toilet in the unit above it? 0.o

I wonder how many people tamper with those pipes when they don't like the people above them. 

Ironman

The power grid as well as the electric service and wiring in these buildings is woefully inadequate to handle this misguided undertaking. And yet, one of the bureaucrat/politicians says this: “So we go into the apartments, we put the piece in, we plug it into the wall just like an AC and we walk away,"
 

Then there’s the “logic” that getting rid of gas fired boilers and replacing them with heat pumps that get their electricity from gas fired power plants is somehow more environmentally friendly!

The asylum is being run by its own inmates. 

dopey27177

I worked for the NYCHA for 26 years, When I started in NYCHA in 1965 I was plumbers helper. NYCHA had 15 plumbers and helpers, 3 teams for each Borough.

Back in the day the project Superintendent had to have a proven back round in building construction, the Manager had a back round in finance and customer relations, Both supervisors ruled their fiefdom separately and were responsible to management at central office. Supervisors like the super and manager had a budget and god help them if they went over the budget,

Maintenance tickets were handled by maintenance men, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, and painters.

The grounds were cleaned by caretakers and Gardeners cut lawns, pruned trees, planted flowers. In tge winter when snow fell it was all hands to shovel snow.

The heating plants were maintained by firemen (a title only for the HA) Firemen were retired merchant marine, boiler tenders from the military oil burner service men.

Each title required passing a civil service exam. To be maintenance man you need at least 3 years in a trade, a super needed 3 years in a trade and promoted from within or an engineering degree. The be an electrician you needed 5 years in the industry and two years as an electrician, the same was for any other skilled trade. Helpers needed 3 years in the industry. All these requirements were needed to be eligible to take the exam.

About 1975 progressives took over the administration of the HA and the the modernization of NYCHA began. The progressives started programs in the HA to train tenants to become firemen, maintenance men
painters,carpenters and in some cases appliance repair people.

No longer was there a prerequisite for prior trade experience to fill titles that the civil service commission had jurisdiction over.

In the 1980s the scandals hit, contract inspectors, superintendents and some managers were taking bribes and signing off work as completed correctly.

The scandals were so pervasive that one would not know who was under investigation or was going to jail.

Meanwhile the home trained NYCHA tenant employees were taking over maintenance jobs, heating plant technicians (new title only for the HA); painter and plasterer helper jobs'

Funny thing about the Heating plant technician jobs, one needed to be able read blue prints, instruction and repair manuals. That was glossed over because plumbers and electricians could do the work in tank rooms and boiler plants.

In those years the plumbing section grew to more than 200 men the electrical section about the same.
About half our work was in heating and domestic hot water production.

The HA was going to hell in a hand basket, more and more work went out to contractors (local contractors with or without licenses more and more contractor defaults and the back log of work tickets kept going up until some big shot decided that work tickets more tan 60 days old did not need to be done. That cut the back log to less than half.

During that time I became a civil service plumber, and civil service Plumber Foreman, New York City Licensed Master Plumber and Plumbing Section Supervisor.

I trained plumbers to maintain high pressure steam stations (learned this skill in the US NAVY, trained men
In repairing mechanical equipment, Repairing and replacing pumps up 100 H.P . and stair hall fan units with steam coils and motors up to 30 H.P. The teams were plumbers and electricians.

In the winter when boiler plants began to fail I set up the installation procedures for rental boilers to provide heat and domestic hot water to projects. The two worst ones were Brownsville house in Brooklyn and Johnson houses in East Harlem. Each boiler plant went out due floods and required 5-200 horse power mobile boilers.

While all this was going down the gas piping in some projects were beginning to fail. I set up the procedures for testing and replacement of defective piping in the buildings.

All of my procedures had to be approved by Brooklyn Union Gas Company; Con-Edison and the final inspection by the building department before we received a green card and were allowed to restore the gas service. These gas outages caused other problems, in many crawl spaces the night emergency crew removed the plugs from soil and waste stacks to alleviate house drain stoppages. The crawl spaces became swimming pools for rats.

The HA plumbers had to relieve the sewer stoppages and secure the open ends of the soil and waste stacks.

I was also part of the oil remediation program where oil spills had to be cleaned up which also led to oil tank testing. To start oil tank restoration testing the oil tank piping and tightness was done first then the oil was removed and sent to other projects. The oil tanks ran from 5,000 gallons to 30,000 gallon.

The oil tanks were cleaned and vented so contractors could go into them to inspect the lap joints, xray and or magniflux the joints as specified by the engineering section.

When I retired (worn out at age 50) the HA was moving very quickly into a disaster area in the greatest city in the world.

I can go on for hours about the 10% of the employees that tried to stem this once successful organization for public housing from going under, but who can stop a speeding train before it goes over the bridge.

Jake

PS not to blow my horn

See enclosure

DanHolohan

Jake, no one tried harder than you did. Thanks for that. 

Steamhead

Telling quote: "The state is trying to transition to cleaner sources of energy, but at the moment most of its electricity comes from natural gas."

Given the transmission-line losses, that's going to result in a net emissions increase.

But someone will make a LOT of money installing these PTAC units- same things we find in motel rooms.

You can't fix stupid. But you can fix corrupt, with jail time.

dopey27177

Unfortunately Jail Time only works for the first criminal. Then comes the politicians who protect themselves by paying off Da's to decriminalize crimes.

Look at our cities now no one goes to jail, no one pays bail it is out free to do it all over again. Thats the diversion used to delay or cover up criminals like the Biden family, steal a billion and you own the world.

Jake

DanHolohan

Jake, it’s best not to stray into politics here. Thanks. 

Erin Holohan Haskell

This is an important discussion, but please avoid politics per site rules. Thank you.

SlamDunk

Most all of my friends and classmates lived in NYCHA projects on Webster Ave in the Bronx. The biggest problem was the lack of maintenance. Fresh paint, renovations and updates, basic repair of wear and tear stuff including plumbing fixtures , elevators etc. never happened. You can tell from @JohnNY s photo. That is one of the better ones! Then came the drugs.

Those window units are nice but they will need to be maintained.these buildings have hundred of apartments. Will N YC have the budget to keep them functional? And, will they have the staff to maintain and repair them? Probaby not.

Hot_water_fan

Given the transmission-line losses, that's going to result in a net emissions increase.

@Steamhead I think that’s easily disproven if you do the math. With a 50% efficient combined cycle, a heat pump barely has to exceed a COP of 2 to be cleaner, which is easily exceeded. That’s only if the grid is 100% natural gas, which it isn’t. Heat pumps easily reduce emissions with the current grid we have and will continue to reduce them as it cleans up. 

JUGHNE

How is the electricity metered in these places. Separately or master meter?

With apartments of the 60's without electric ranges or dryers, I have seen a 60 amp panel feed per each and with as little as 4-8 circuits that were plug fuses with extra pennies.

At least if the NYCHA installs the units then they are responsible for securing them to the window.

SlamDunk

JUGHNE said:

At least if the NYCHA installs the units then they are responsible for securing them to the window.

That's another problem- losing a little more daylight and another view of the world outside.

DanHolohan

My aunt and grandma had a million-dollar view of the East River. They also had a Dunham-Bush Varivac system that still worked, and a fuse box. They blew lots of fuses, with nothing unusual plugged in anywhere. 

I often wonder who lives in that no 21st floor, one-bedroom now. 

EBEBRATT-Ed

If I understand the above correctly it's $3000/room not /apartment. I would think these Heat pumps would be say 8000 btu/hr each.

So if you needed 60 of them to do a building (probably a lot more than that)

You would be talking about at a minimum 300 amps

DanHolohan

These buildings have hundreds of apartments. 

SlamDunk

I think a well maintained, regularly PM'd steam system is one way to go in these buildings. But, If the powers insist fossil fuels are out, then get giant heating elements in a boiler and make steam. It absolutely can be done. The infrastructure is in place and they save a window!

JUGHNE

Looking at the history of these things, some buildings average 500 apartments per building. The units have several rooms, so a HP in each room?
So maybe 1500 per building?? Really

TAG

It would be cheaper to fix whatever is supposed to heat the building and give everybody $300 bucks for a ac unit every year.

Being a lifelong (partial) NYC resident it has always amazed me that ac units don't kill more people.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@JUGHNE

Maybe you could fly in and we could do the electrical LOL If they think they can run that on the existing power supply I would be surprised. 1500x 4amps=6000 amps even on 3 phase/1.73=3500 amps.

I think these people are drunk.

Maybe they can put enough solar panels on the roof to power it LOL

You can't make this stuff up

The electrical will cost more than buying all the units

Or unplug the refrigerators and toaster ovens when you need heat or ac

And they are still going to run the boilers "for now" to make DHW

Steamhead

Hot_water_fan said:

Given the transmission-line losses, that's going to result in a net emissions increase.

@Steamhead I think that’s easily disproven if you do the math. With a 50% efficient combined cycle, a heat pump barely has to exceed a COP of 2 to be cleaner, which is easily exceeded. That’s only if the grid is 100% natural gas, which it isn’t. Heat pumps easily reduce emissions with the current grid we have and will continue to reduce them as it cleans up. 

https://blog.se.com/energy-management-energy-efficiency/2013/03/25/how-big-are-power-line-losses/

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Steamhead

Good point

Hang a 200 amp service in a house and you go up to the peak of the house from the meter with #2/0 copper or #4/0 aluminum.

Then you grab on to the power company wire to make the splice and they are coming in from the pole with #6 aluminum.

Why would they run bigger wire that would cost them more money? No they run little wire so it will give off more heat then they can make us pay for the transmission losses.

True there wire is hanging in free air so less likely to overheat than in a building that's a little part of it.

But they are way undersized

JakeCK

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@Steamhead Good point Hang a 200 amp service in a house and you go up to the peak of the house from the meter with #2/0 copper or #4/0 aluminum. Then you grab on to the power company wire to make the splice and they are coming in from the pole with #6 aluminum. Why would they run bigger wire that would cost them more money? No they run little wire so it will give off more heat then they can make us pay for the transmission losses. True there wire is hanging in free air so less likely to overheat than in a building that's a little part of it. But they are way undersized

Sounds like a good argument for solar. 

SlamDunk

Solar IS a good idea. The basements in these building are massive. You could install dozens of electric boilers. Likewise, their roofs are expansive and they can use solar to offset electrical costs. Solar can also be installed on south facing exteriors. They are usually the tallest buildings around.

But there are other issues that need attention. Just basic upkeep that has been ignored for decades. That's the problem with NYCHA. Never enough money and never enough competent management.

DanHolohan

This has been going on for years and it breaks my heart:
https://nypost.com/2021/12/23/seniors-in-nyc-public-housing-face-christmas-without-heat/

Jamie Hall

I calculated the other day just how much in the way of solar panels would be required to power New York City (the five boroughs). Here it is: stick a pin in Central Park and draw an arc 75 miles in radius, centred on the pin. Now cover that entire land area -- all of it -- with tracking solar panels. No problem at all. It would be kind of shady for the people of New Jersey (the arc goes to Camden across to Atlantic City) or southwestern Connecticut... mostly Fairfield County... or Westchester and Dutchess... or the Isle of Long...

But you have your solar power for New York City!

A cold dose of reality for some of these people would be helpful, but who is to deliver it?

And in the meantime, China is happily eating our lunch: they are building 10 grid scale (like Indian Point or San Onofre scale, only modern designs) nuclear power plants every year.

SuperTech

pecmsg said:

And they just shut down the Indian Point Plant! Where are they building the new one?

They already built it. It's on Route 22 in the Dover/Wassaic area of Dutchess county.

Ironman

If we would would ever learn that most politicians have their own best interests in mind, and not ours, then we’d begin to understand why these kind of things are promoted. They’ll do anything to make themselves look good so they can get votes and line their own pockets at our expense.