Old steam system, New to me

Dathanz

Hi everyone,

Just joined the board to get some more info on the steam boiler system I have in the house I bought a few months ago. I’m located in upstate NY, the house was built in 1920 and I’m assuming the system is the original heat system. It does have relatively new Utica boiler replaced in 2019.

I think I’ve got a good understanding from the research I’ve done so far, but wanted to confirm/get advice from those more knowledgeable.

My biggest concern is making the system as efficient as possible to minimize heating costs. I have realized not all of the radiators heat at the same rate and some also only heat half of the radiator. My first thought is to replace the main vent as well as each radiator vent. The main vent is rusted up and doesn’t look to be in good condition. There are also a variety of different vents on the radiators which do hiss off and on. I’m guessing they may be clogged since a few radiators are only heating half the radiator. (Disclaimer….when I first moved in I drained the system and then got distracted with a phone call when filling and essentially filled the entire system, so clogged vents might be my own fault.)

The other thing I noticed is the pressurotrol has been set too cut in at 8psi with a differential of 1. I’m guessing the clogged vents may not all be my fault and someone turned up the pressure to “force” air out of the radiators. From what I gather I need to turn this down to 2 psi with diff set to 1?

Also, it seems like the near boiler piping has not been done correctly?

I’ve included pics of this piping. Also, have included pics of the current main vent and radiator vents. Recommendations for vent type to replace them with?








Thanks for your feedback and thoughts.

KC_Jones

The boiler piping is indeed wrong. Copper is bad, you have a colliding header. Not sure what size the boiler is, but some of the bigger ones in that line require a larger header 2 1/2 or 3" depending out size. That one looks like a bigger boiler so that could also be an issue.

The pressure is indeed too high. Turn that down as low as it will go without disengaging the linkage. Inside wheel is fine at 1.

Main vent appears to be woefully inadequate. Measure the length of each main, and the diameter and we can recommend how much main venting each will need. Most likely a Gorton #2 at minimum, but the length of mains will answer that.

Vents for the radiators is somewhat a matter of personal preference. There are decent adjustable vents out there (Ventrite and Maid-O-Mist), there are also fixed orifice vents by others, most of us prefer Gorton. If you are confident in sizing, go with the fixed, if you are unsure, go adjustable. I went fixed and now have 3 extra vents in a drawer, I would probably go adjustable if I was to do it over.

One of the radiator vents you pictured is in an incorrect location, most likely a replacement radiator. The vents are to be about 1/3 up from the bottom, the one is at the top. if you look down the side of that radiator there should be a boss of some kind (might not be drilled out) that would be the correct vent location for steam. Where it is now can cause a short circuit and not allow the rad to heat properly.

Something else that may be worthwhile is measuring the EDR of the system and determine if the boiler is properly sized. You can't do much about that, but it will give you an idea of realistic expectations for system performance. It's a fairly easy calculation, we can help if needed. I will include a link to a worksheet, start at the bottom of page 9.

https://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/Weil-McLain_BoilerReplacementGuide_WM2012-web_0.pdf

Whoever installed that wouldn't be invited back into my house. There is a manual with pictures for how it's to be piped, apparently that's not enough for some people.

JUGHNE

On a positive note he did provide a skim tap out the left side of the boiler outlet.
Show us the pipe going into the boiler to see if there is a reducing bushing screwed into the boiler casting.

Post a full picture of the label that shows the model and serial number.
You can down load the entire install manual, might be 50 pages long.
Or it may be lurking in the basement somewhere, probably no fingerprints on it from reading by installer.

Where is that main vent located in the layout of the steam mains?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@JUGHNE said "probably no fingerprints on it from reading by installer"

@KC_Jones said".Whoever installed that wouldn't be invited back into my house. There is a manual with pictures for how it's to be piped, apparently that's not enough for some people.


The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over when it's wrong.

The installer was proud of the job he put his sticker their.

Maybe he should start attending the WALL

Too bad, I wonder if these installers ever look in a manual or is it just the piping they don't bother with.

Jamie Hall

The folks up there have hit the main points... so far as efficiency goes, just getting the pressuretrol properly set (the index on the front scale will be somewhere around 0.6 or 0.7) will save a surprising amount., as well as making things quieter and more even around the house.

Unhappily, having been run at those high pressures, most of the vents must be regarded as suspect. That doesn't, however, necessarily mean you have to go out and replace the lot. The main vent probably should be, simply because it really isn't big enough. The others? That depends entirely on how you like the way the space is heating. If the space is warm enough and not too hot, don't fix it. The radiator may indeed only be heating part way across -- but if that is putting out enough heat to keep the space warm, what is there not to like? Leave it be.

Hap_Hazzard

C'mon, you guys. You're being too hard on poor Leo. He didn't do everything wrong. At least he didn't connect the flue pipe from the water heater to the flue before the vent damper, and the discharge from the safety valve goes down to the floor. Just about everything else I can see is wrong, and I can't even see the Hartford loop, if there is one. Since he obviously doesn't know thing one about steam and didn't read the IOM, he could have easily missed that detail too. But hey, at least we know those Utica/Dunkirk boilers aren't too fussy about near boiler piping, right?

Hap_Hazzard

Based on the picture, I'm guessing that this is a model PEG225EID. Utica recommends 2 2" risers, a 2½" header and a 1½" equalizer. These are minimum requirements. I recommend at least a 3" header, because this boiler has no effective steam chest due to the side-exit supply tappings, and the equalizer should be at least 2" straight down to the minimum water line.

I'm attaching the IOM for the PEG-E series of boilers. The near-boiler piping instructions are at the bottom of page 11. (Drop header is illustrated on page 30.) Follow the instructions for a seven section boiler.

I'm also including an additional document on PEG-E series near boiler piping.

Dathanz

@KC_Jones -- Main vent appears to be woefully inadequate. Measure the length of each main, and the diameter and we can recommend how much main venting each will need. Most likely a Gorton #2 at minimum, but the length of mains will answer that.

Total Length of Mains: 578"
Main #1: 438"
Main #2: 140" (There is no vent in this main - it supplies 2 radiators, one upstairs and one downstairs. The downstairs one heats unevenly, the upstairs seems to heat as normal)

External Diameter is 2.25"






@JUGHNE -- On a positive note he did provide a skim tap out the left side of the boiler outlet.
Show us the pipe going into the boiler to see if there is a reducing bushing screwed into the boiler casting.

Is this what you are referring to?



Post a full picture of the label that shows the model and serial number.




You can down load the entire install manual, might be 50 pages long.
Or it may be lurking in the basement somewhere, probably no fingerprints on it from reading by installer.

I have the manual and it clearly does show the proper header piping, smh.

Where is that main vent located in the layout of the steam mains?

Dathanz

Also, I'll be insulating the mains. Makes no sense to me why most of it isn't.

KC_Jones

On the main with a vent, you need at least the equivalent of a Gorton #2, if it was mine I'd use 2, but it also depends on what size connection you have available. You need at least a 1/2" (~7/8" OD) pipe connection to support 2 Gorton #2 vents. For one you can get away with 1/8", which I'm sure you have at minimum.

The other main, with no main vent, you may be able to get it to work adequately with radiator vents, but it will be a delicate balancing act. What you are most likely experiencing now is an imbalance because one has a better vent than the other. The other difficulty is properly venting the other main will tend to favor that main in general.

I'd be trying to figure out how to get a main vent on that one. A Gorton #1 would do it.

Hap_Hazzard

Dathanz said:

Also, I'll be insulating the mains. Makes no sense to me why most of it isn't.

I can't be sure in your case, but in most cases steam systems were originally installed with asbestos insulation. Later on, when people started noticing asbestos was killing people, they removed it, but they didn't replace it with anything. A lot of what's been done to steam systems since then—high pressure, oversized boilers, etc.—probably stems from ill-advised attempts to remedy the lack of insulation without actually adding insulation.

JUGHNE

Your skim valve is pointing down on the left side of the boiler. It is connected to the black tee coming out of the side of the boiler. It can be used to skim oils off the top of the water in the boiler.
The reducing bushing may be screwed into the boiler behind the tee.
Usually the boiler opening is 2 1/2" that incorrectly gets reduced down to 2".
2" is the largest pipe that many can thread. Also large price jump from 2 to 2 1/2" for fittings and pipe.

2" iron pipe measures about 2 3/8" on the outside, are both your mains that size?
Your 2" copper would measure 2 1/8" on the outside.

The higher hose bib is the Boiler Drain.
The lower hose bib is to drain the Wet Return.
Sludge can build up in the wet return and you want to keep it clear so your water returns promptly. The wet return will also act as a trap to collect debris so it may not make it into the boiler.

Your Hartford Loop is the tee and elbow above the boiler drain.

That is a good location for the main vent you have...just not a good vent.

On the other end you could drill and tap the top of the pipe to 1/4" for all the venting you might need on that short main. After the last steam take off but 16" before the drop 90 elbow.

And it looks like you have asbestos insulation on the pipes.
Some looks pretty fuzzy and it appears that you will spend considerable time in the basement...perhaps consider having it removed (may not be as costly as one imagines) or encapsulated (maybe do that yourself?) IDK

It looks like you have plenty of boiler capacity, most likely more than needed.
You can calculate your connected EDR and compare it to the 488 EDR of the boiler.

And lastly, was the install book clean?

Hap_Hazzard

BuyInsulationProducts.com has some asbestos encapsulation products.
https://www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/asbestos-removal/
AFAIK, they also have the best prices on insulation products.

JUGHNE

I would certainly price abatement for complete removal and clean up.
Open basement with short ladders might be reasonable costs.

The encapsulation looks labor intensive and a fair cost in materials.

Options for the HO.

That company does have good prices for insulation.
However the freight is quite a lot.
I priced 2 box fulls of 3' lengths (mixed sizes) there and also from a supplier 200 miles away. This was right at 50 pounds.

$175 from buyinsulation versus $25 for the 200 mile trip.

Buyinsulation was less for insulation but considering the freight the other was less bottom line of cost.

And for the small company, the guy you talk to on the phone also fills your order.

Dathanz

@JUGHNE

I gotcha...thought you were referring to an unseen pipe not the skim valve. There does not seem to be a reducing bushing. OD of pipe between the tee and boiler is 2 3/8", then 2 1/8" copper from the tee through header piping until it connects to the mains.



So it looks like the pipe from the boiler to the tee is correct, but then incorrect copper pipe from there to the mains. The long main is indeed 2 3/8" OD. The short main I can't tell 100% as it's covered in the asbestos insulation. The 90* elbow before the insulation is the same size as all the others so unless it reduced inside the asbestos I'd assume it's the same size.

Your Hartford Loop is the tee and elbow above the boiler drain.
That is a good location for the main vent you have...just not a good vent.

I'm not sure I completely understand what your saying here. Are you saying I should move the old vent I currently have to the wet return by the Hartford Loop after replacing it with a new one in it's current location?

Install book was completing clean. Didn't even look like it was taken out of the plastic cover.

Dathanz

I do plan to remove the asbestos at some point. I'll be doing it myself as I own the home. Heavy does of a water hose and careful handling.

JUGHNE

Sorry, I wasn't clear with those sentences.

That place on the steam pipe is ideal for an air vent. It is just that the existing vent is severely small.

Main steam line air vents have to be connected to the top of the steam line.
After that then the pipe turns into a wet return and would not pass any air or steam.

Do you have any pipes below the floor for the wet return?

There is a great book available called "We Got Steam Heat!", written by Dan Holohan who founded this site. It is written for the layman homeowner. Good primer for learning more.

Dathanz

That makes sense. Was a little confused because I hadn't seen anything my research that talked about having a vent in the wet return.

There aren't any pipes in the floor. The wet return slopes down from the elbow after the main vent back to the Hartford Loop. The short main wet return connects to the longer return about 10-15ft from the boiler.

neilc

xmas is coming,
https://heatinghelp.com/store/detail/we-got-steam-heat-a-homeowners-guide-to-peaceful-coexistence
read it, it's a real easy read,
also available for kindle for cheap

set the pressure down,
0.5 cut in, 1 on the differential as you have it,
gives you 1.5 cut out,
do it, do it now

Zipper13

neilc said:

xmas is coming,
https://heatinghelp.com/store/detail/we-got-steam-heat-a-homeowners-guide-to-peaceful-coexistence
read it, it's a real easy read,
also available for kindle for cheap

Got this for my wife the first xmas in our house. She still loves to bring it up to her friends when we have them over for the holidays. Whatever, I got a lot out of the read so eventually it ended up being good for her too in a round about way.

neilc

@Zipper13 said:

neilc said:

xmas is coming,
https://heatinghelp.com/store/detail/we-got-steam-heat-a-homeowners-guide-to-peaceful-coexistence
read it, it's a real easy read,
also available for kindle for cheap

Got this for my wife the first xmas in our house. She still loves to bring it up to her friends when we have them over for the holidays. Whatever, I got a lot out of the read so eventually it ended up being good for her too in a round about way.

got that for your wife did ya ?
I read it for the pictures,

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Low bid Leo strikes again.

Dathanz

From my calculations it seems the boiler is oversized almost double what it should be. This is my math……

8 radiators

H x W, sections - tubes

1. 20 x 9.5, 15 - 6
2. 20 x 8, 21 - 5
3. 20 x 8, 10 - 5
4. 20 x 8, 15 - 5
5. 20 x 8, 15 - 5
6. 20 x 8, 13 - 5
7. 18 x 4.5, 10 - 4
8. 26 x 4.5, 14 - 3

Total sq ft radiation: 277.6

Boiler rating: 488

cross_skier

I am a homeowner and an engineer who has been living with steam for over 2 decades.

Your boiler can be downfired some at the gas valve but combustion should be checked after.

If you make it to spring you may be able to redo the near boiler piping.  A pipe threading kit and pipe vice are pretty cheap.  It will be a workout.

Venting the heck out of the mains worked wonders for my system.  I have long mains with several vents at the end.  I even have a vent in the middle of each main sitting on top of small pipes.  I also vented most of the risers in my 2 story home.  I brought a pile of new vents off eBay many years ago and used almost all of them.  Vent the mains and risers fast, vent the radiators slow.

I have insulated everything even the returns but I am not sure I would recommend this if your boiler is oversized.

pecmsg

Dathanz said:

I do plan to remove the asbestos at some point. I'll be doing it myself as I own the home. Heavy does of a water hose and careful handling.

Unless your trained and licensed i believe that's illegal!

What are you going to do with it after its removed?

delcrossv

pecmsg said:

Dathanz said:

I do plan to remove the asbestos at some point. I'll be doing it myself as I own the home. Heavy does of a water hose and careful handling.

Unless your trained and licensed i believe that's illegal!

What are you going to do with it after its removed?

Depends where you are.

pecmsg

delcrossv said:

pecmsg said:

Dathanz said:

I do plan to remove the asbestos at some point. I'll be doing it myself as I own the home. Heavy does of a water hose and careful handling.

Unless your trained and licensed i believe that's illegal!

What are you going to do with it after its removed?

Depends where you are.

You still have to dispose of it and that can't be in a public landfill!

delcrossv

pecmsg said:

delcrossv said:

pecmsg said:

Dathanz said:

I do plan to remove the asbestos at some point. I'll be doing it myself as I own the home. Heavy does of a water hose and careful handling.

Unless your trained and licensed i believe that's illegal!

What are you going to do with it after its removed?

Depends where you are.

You still have to dispose of it and that can't be in a public landfill!

Yep. Private haulers will take it if bagged for an additional fee. (Have to set that up in advance)

Dathanz

If you’re the homeowner and doing it yourself it’s perfectly legal. Double bag and take to the landfill, they handle it from there.

pecmsg

Dathanz said:

If you’re the homeowner and doing it yourself it’s perfectly legal. Double bag and take to the landfill, they handle it from there.

Not in NY

Jamie Hall

Or Connecticut. In fact, in Connecticut they won't even take it on their "hazardous waste collection" days. Got a backhoe and some diesel?

Hap_Hazzard

I wonder how many dummies have tried to incinerate it.

Jamie Hall

Didn't mean to burn it, @Hap_Hazzard ! But maybe someone has a convenient back 40... dig a nice hole... oh. Bad Thoughts.

Dathanz

KC_Jones said:

On the main with a vent, you need at least the equivalent of a Gorton #2, if it was mine I'd use 2, but it also depends on what size connection you have available. You need at least a 1/2" (~7/8" OD) pipe connection to support 2 Gorton #2 vents. For one you can get away with 1/8", which I'm sure you have at minimum.

Unfortunately, it looks like getting the bushing out is not going to be a simple task due to rust so I’m limited to 1/4” pipe connection for this winter. I’m guessing this is still too small for 2 Gorton #2s? Luckily, the vent came out fairly easy.

Thoughts on Big Mouth vs Gorton #2?

KC_Jones

The challenge is the Gorton has 1/2" pipe connection so you'd at least need to get the coupling off and replace with a reducing coupling that is 1/2" x 1/4". It also depends how much height you have, I think the Gorton is 7-8" tall or so.

Dathanz

Had planned to use a reducing coupler, but guess I didn’t realize the valve was that big.

Any issues if I was to use an elbow at the coupler and then a couple more to bring it down lower like this.

Jamie Hall

Don't do that! The low bend there will trap water and then the vent will be pretty close to useless.

KC_Jones

What @Jamie Hall said. To elaborate, think of steam a bit like the drainage system in your house. That water all needs to drain back to the boiler, and with steam, there is always water from the steam condensing.

Dathanz

Yup, makes sense. Looks like I need to find a pipe to add to my wrench handle. Never easy with this house, smh.

JUGHNE

I would try to remove the bushing. PB blaster or Kroil spray several times.
IIWM, I would leave the nipple in as I tried to remove the bushing to avoid collapsing or egg shaping the bushing.

delcrossv

+1 PB Blaster and a large pipe wrench on that bushing. A spud wrench or Crescent will never hold. Slic-Tite on the threads of the new nipple.