Old steam system, New to me

Hap_Hazzard

Make a candelabra.

3 Gorton #1s = 1 Gorton #2

JUGHNE

Tapping or rapping on the top or faces of the bushing after spraying may help.

wlgann

JUGHNE said:

IIWM, I would leave the nipple in as I tried to remove the bushing to avoid collapsing or egg shaping the bushing.

Yeah, I had this exact problem and I did NOT leave the nipple in. Destroyed the 3/8" x 1/2" bushing in about 2 seconds. That made the job a lot bigger.

I already happened to own a 1/2" tap but what I needed to do was drill out the remains of the bushing and then re-tap the 1/2" outlet to get the threads clean for my new 1/2" nipple. Not enough room between the fitting and the ceiling to fit a drill and the big ol' 23/32" bit. I ended up putting a jack under the bottom of the return, unhooking the main from the joists, and lowering it down JUST enough to get the drill up there.

STEAM DOCTOR

Dathanz said:

Yup, makes sense. Looks like I need to find a pipe to add to my wrench handle. Never easy with this house, smh.

Don't use wrench to turn bushing. Rather, put wrench 9n bushing and hit wrench with small sledgehammer. Not to soft and not to hard. Will probably need to hit bunch of times. The impact will hopefully do the trick.  Also, try turning wrench (with hammer) in the tighten direction (clockwise). Don't know why tightening helps but I know that it helps.  

Dathanz

Finally was able to get the bushing loose. A lot of tapping the pipe wrench and bushing with a hammer, increased torque with a pipe on the wrench and 20min of heating the T with a map gas torch did the trick.

Now it's time to vent this thing!

Planning to do 1/2" nipple from the T to a 1/2" to 3/4" reducing coupler, and then the 3/4" Big Mouth. I have 37' of 2” main pipe which will be vented.

I'm assuming 1 Big Mouth will be sufficient?

Hap_Hazzard

Good job! Now don't you feel like putting that bushing on your mantelpiece like a trophy?

1 Big Mouth should be plenty. I'm getting by with a Gorton 2 on my longest main.

Dathanz

quick update....have had the Big Mouth installed for a while now.



I'm starting to plan out my next project of which I'm going to change out the near boiler piping and replace with a drop header. From what I've gathered, ideally the pipe would be 3" (I'm pretty sure I'm getting wet steam out into my main feeds and radiators). I've found a guy that has a few 3" elbows and varies nipples that he is looking to get rid of as he has no use for them so I should be able to get a great discount compared to normal cost. I'm hoping he'll have most of what I'll need.

I've drawn out a quick diagram on what I envision the design being. Let me know what, if anything, I might be missing or things to be aware of.

I'm planning to do this myself as much as I can.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Your diagram is correct, just one comment. Where the equalizer comes off the header use a minimum # of elbows above the water line.

In other words drop the equalizer below the water line as soon as you can.

Dathanz

Reviving my project......I know, it's been a while and I still haven't done it.

Is there any major downside to using 2" pipe for my drop header compared to 3" for my system. I know 3" is ideal, but I'm wondering what I truly would lose by using 2". I understand its hard to quantify the % improvement/deficit per say, but if the difference truly isn't substantial for my size system it'll be easier to work with 2" if I end up needing to thread my own pipe (not to mention savings in cost). I plan to use nipples as much as possible

I'll also be adding into the system 2 risers off the main close to the boiler as I'm eliminating my single large radiator under my window in my living room and installing 2 smaller radiators as part of a renovation. The radiators will be enclosed in a pseudo built-in cabinet on each side of my fireplace.

Mad Dog_2

The Installer's neatness, even though he should not have used Copper on the steam side, is pretty good except his upside solder joints on the Hartford loop Tee.  All  he had to do hit it with Open Mesh Grit Cloth to take off the smeared Solder.  I worked with, otherwise  very good and neat mechanics over the years, that just refused to look at instructions..forget about read a Holohan or any other  Book for that matter...'I don't need no stinkin' book!!" Was there attitude.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Steamhead

Dathanz said:

Is there any major downside to using 2" pipe for my drop header compared to 3" for my system. I know 3" is ideal, but I'm wondering what I truly would lose by using 2".

Of course there is! That 3" header is there to keep water from getting up into the steam mains. If you undersize it, it won't be able to do its job, and you'd get wet steam, banging, reduced efficiency etc.

What make and model is your boiler?

Dathanz

So with the current setup, I have no banging so I don't imagine using the same size 2" pipe would lead to new hammer. I absolutely have wet steam into my system which is why I want to transition to a drop header. My boiler is overpowered for my system as well, but it was installed prior to me buying the house and I have it balanced as well as I can at this point.

I get that using 2" is not as good as 3", but I'm looking to kind of quantify the difference between the two. I'll be doing the work myself and threading 3" is nearly impossible. I can get access to a pipe threader for 2", but 3" is a different story. I doubt I can do everything I need with just nipples.

109A_5

Hello @Dathanz,

The header minimum is 2". 2-1/2" or 3" would be better. I would think you could make the Header with off the shelf nipples and fittings if planned carefully. Looking at supplyhouse.com the choice of 3" is kind of poor, 2-1/2 is better. The bigger Header will help reduce the steam velocity so more water can drop out and produce drier steam.

https://uticaboilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/240009937-PEG-E-IOM-Rev-K.pdf

EBEBRATT-Ed

Especially with a boiler with side steam tapping you have to at least pipe it to the MFG. minimum requirements.

Dathanz

What exactly is the # of sections referring to?

109A_5

Dathanz said:

What exactly is the # of sections referring to?

The number of sections in the heat exchanger, item number 3. With this style boiler the more sections there are the greater the BTU rating of the boiler is, so more steam to exit the boiler per hour. So the near boiler piping has to accommodate that.

Mad Dog_2

Boiler sections are like a sliced loaf of bread...the more slices you eat the more calories your "boiler room" stomach can generate.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

If you're going to tackle this yourself, Labor cost is moot.  Spend the $ now to do it right and be done with it.  If you try to cheap out and take shortcuts, you NOT ONLY may not fix the system, but you'll likely make it worse.  If it calls for 3"...do it in 3" !  You can give a big city supply house measurements and they can cut ✂️ and thread for you.

Don't try to be perfect, order them a few inches short and get sets of nipples and couplings to connect them.  There's nothing technically wrong with this (just aesthetics) and I've done it when I'm doing a remote install in the Boonies or another State where I don't have access to a good plumbing supply or Big Bertha (The Huge Ridgid Threader that does up to 4"). Good luck, have fun, try not to skin your knuckles and post pictures...Mad Dog 🐕 

Jamie Hall

I might add that steam systems are very forgiving -- up to a point. Then all bets are off. The trouble is, one sometimes doesn't know just how close to that point one is with a system which is working just fine -- but is well off best practice. On those, even a small change -- never mind a big one like a new boiler -- can turn what was a placid system into a raging monster.

Mad Dog_2

I always tell clients, the slightest change or modification you make to a steam system, can take you on a Nantucket Sleighride to get the Lion back in to the cage....There's no tinkering and walking away...Mad Dog 🐕 

exqheat

You may want to be careful with asbestos insulation on piping.

Dathanz

ok, 3" it is.

This is what I'm thinking for pieces of the header/piping.

The boiler taps are 2"

Yellow Lines: 2" pipe -- should I enlarge the risers to 3" prior to the header?
White circle: Union
Green Line: 3" pipe/nipples
Purple Circles: 3" x 2" Tee (main is 2")

Any issues with leaving the equalizer copper?

Mad Dog_2

I blow up to the larger pipe size immediately, but that just the Mad Dog 🐕 Method.  Make sure you use plenty of unions so that the Header & near boiler piping become PART OF THE SYSTEM and will remain and enable quick & easy replacement down the line. 

Asbestos (ACM).  I have been licensed to Properly abate and handle ACM for as long as I'm doing Plumbing & Heating. .almost 40 yrs.  Layman think they can do it "safely
Because there's no "immediate" danger.  They also want to save $$$.  Simply wetting it down doesn't cut it.  Please get a legit Asbestos Abatement company do the proper job with Third Party Air monitoring. Its not nearly as expensive as it once was and very competitive.  Its money 💰 well spent and you and your family's lungs will thank you.  Mad Dog 🐕 

109A_5

Hello @Dathanz,
I think I would build it more like the manual shows (alternative piping), however your space on the side of the boiler is limited, which is maybe one reason why the original installer did it the way they did. I suppose that is one of the issues with the tapping on the side versus the top. And it may require more pipe. Some boiler manuals have actual dimensions of the nipple lengths recommended. I would be less concerned with the path between the header and the mains.

Some pictures, there are many more around the site.
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/193243/burnham-steammax

Dathanz

Anyone know the difference between domestic and imported nipples/fittings on SupplyHouse?

Is there a difference in quality that I should lean towards one vs the other?

109A_5

Hello @Dathanz,
One situation, go to 5:40 if you don't want to watch the whole video. I think most of the big box stores stuff is imported, their stock is probably too small for some of your project anyway.

Piping In The Hartford Loop & Wet Return, A Fitting Split & Leaked
https://youtu.be/B1oivR64Jrk

Dathanz

One broken fitting in the video isn't necessarily indicative of all imported fittings. It could just be a one off or that specific one was defective.


The domestic fittings & nipples are over 50% more expensive than the imported for many of the sizes. If the quality of the domestic is substantially better I don't mind spending the difference for superior quality, but just because something is more expensive doesn't necessarily mean it's better.

I don't know the difference between each. Looking for opinions from those who have a better understanding of each product more so than myself.

I'm likely to order the majority of what I'll need from SupplyHouse for the free shipping and I'm able to order it to a state without sales tax.

What they don't have in stock I'll pick up locally.

Jamie Hall

The principal difference I have seen between things imported from China vs. domestic production (and some European production for automotive applications) is quality control. In the case of plumbing fittings, such as what you are contemplating, this usually shows up in the form of poor threads, which may be difficult or even impossible to seal.

Mad Dog_2

You usually get what you pay for, no? I've seen Chinese pipe split down the seam in a few years.  Sand holes in malleable gas fittings...dangerous..Their engineering and mlonh is usually not very precise..  I've seen black pipe you only get a threading die on it by filing the ends down and pounding it on with a lumper... There's a Good reason Made in USA 🇺🇸 had such a long run...higher quality and dependability.  I also believe in buying "local" too.  Mad Dog 🐕 

AdmiralYoda

I just browsed through the earlier part of this project. Still confident in your EDR calculations? That boiler is crazy oversized. What was it? 488 sq.ft. with 277ish EDR? Does it short cycle alot?

Seems like every time a boiler is replaced the contractor just replaces it with the same one or "Just a bit larger, just in case". After a few replacements have been made over the past 100 years...you now have a boiler that is 2 or 3 sizes up from what you need.

Any colder spots in your home? Save that larger radiator that you will be removing and swap it somewhere where there is a smaller one. Anything you can do to bump up your EDR will help, but you've got a long way to go.

Intplm.

@Dathanz ....
Fittings......NPT? IPS?.... Pipe threads on fittings can be a little off of spec. You will need to feel your way when it comes to tightening them.

Years ago, many who read this will recall when we only used pipe dope or Teflon tape on pipe threads. Now you will find that many of us are using both Teflon tape AND pipe dope on threads. The reason? We DON'T TRUST the threads any longer.

Too many manufacturers have supplied pipe fittings and have not followed a "standard". Many of us have learned, (in some cases the hard way) that both tape and dope will help to make a proper joint lowering the chances of a leak. Especially since you can not know where the fitting was made or the availability of fittings is not adequate so you just have to purchase what is available.

That being said.......Well. Just some food for thought.

One other thing. When you install the unions on your installation. Don't mix one half of a union with another brand of union. That can surely be a No, No.

Please keep us posted on your project. Your on the right track.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I would use USA made fittings as much as possible. . Some of the foreign stuff is ok but you never know.


I was at a job out of town (2 hrs away) and ran to the local small supply house to get some 1" black nipples. 1 run close-6".

I got there just as the supply house was closing but he got me what I needed (or so I thought)

After I got in the truck I opened the box of nipples and about half of them were useless the threads were all torn up. Foreign made.

Like @Mad Dog_2 said you get what you pay for.

Dathanz

What's the best pipe dope to go with?

I'm doing dope and teflon tape. I'm assuming tape first on the threads and then dope on top of tape is the correct order of operations.

Intplm.

Dathanz said:

What's the best pipe dope to go with?

I'm doing dope and teflon tape. I'm assuming tape first on the threads and then dope on top of tape is the correct order of operations.

Best? Well.....Blue monster brand, three wraps around the threads. And only three wraps around as it says in the directions.
If you use white Teflon tape. I was taught, and always use six wraps around the threads.

As for pipe dope. Any teflon-based or the Blue Monster brand pipe dope is quite good.

And yes. Tape first and dope on the tape. In that order.

Dathanz

Recommendation for "degreasing" the fittings & nipples prior to installation or best to just skim it after?

Getting close....just waiting on my 3" Elbows to arrive

EBEBRATT-Ed

The boiler will steam clean everything when it runs and you will have to skim anyhow

109A_5

Hello @Dathanz,

A good dish soap, water and a brush, focusing on the inside of the pipe, rinse well. Any other solvent would be more expensive. May help minimize the skimming effort.

Mad Dog_2

Have you ever cleaned a shotgun or Long Rifle?  You can do the same on any cut & thread pipe to plunge out any cutting oil & extra dope.  No reason to add in gunk that you're trying to get out.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Dathanz

Let the fun begin, finally started tackling this today. I thought the demo was going to be more of a pain in the ****, but getting the old copper fittings out wasn't too difficult. Couldn't break them loose so I had to cut a small section out and then screw driver and hammer the rest of the way.




I mocked it up and realized I still need a couple different size nipples that I don't have and another length of 3" for the front section.

pecmsg

What is the T and street ell pointing down on the left side for?