Carbon Monoxide from Hydronic Boiler; 5 "Professionals", 5 Diagnoses...

WMno57

oldradiator said:

Oh man @mattmia2 I hope you’re right and maybe I got misdiagnosed again. This is ridiculous. The tech assured me the photos from his mini camera (pictured above) confirmed a cracked heat exchanger.

The last tech is blaming moisture and steam for the CO rolling out. He says the moisture and steam is due to a very small crack in heat exchanger.

The diagnosis is correct in that the boiler has failed, is leaking, and needs to be replaced.
Which came first, the chicken, or the egg?
Was this a random crack that released moisture and caused corrosion and CO?
OR:
An inadequate chimney caused condensation, leading to corrosion, leading to the crack/rust-through?

It would be interesting to know, but I think the more important question that must be answered is.....

Is your current chimney good? I think there are enough warning signs to warrant hiring a chimney specialist.

JohnNY

oldradiator said:

Well if @JohnNY wants to take a trip up to Westchester that would be cool…lol

I messaged you.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@WMno57

If your system is gravity with no pump you won't have an issue.

Zman

If you turn off the feed water and watch the pressure gauge are you losing water? Don't leave it unattended with the valve off unless you have a functioning low water cutoff.

WMno57

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

If your system is gravity with no pump you won't have an issue.

High volume gravity pipes, but I think around 1950 when the Weil McLain number 57 boiler replaced the coal boiler a single B&G100 was added to the return (not pumping away). No Primary Secondary. The B&G100 has been replaced at least once.
I'm not worried about it's demise. It doesn't owe me anything. If it dies tomorrow, I would throw it a celebration of life party, winterize the house, and start shopping for a new boiler. Then again it might be keeping the guests warm at my celebration of life party.

Photos of my Vintage circa 1950 boiler here:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/182299/weil-mclain-no-57-series-boilers

@oldradiator may need primary-secondary or some other boiler protection strategy with today's cast iron boilers. My boiler was designed for coal, so it is very different from anything that is sold today.

mattmia2

It depends on your system too. if it is well matched it might run long cycles and get hot enough to keep the return temp up. if the emitters are very oversized it might satisfy the thermostat before it ever gets anywhere near hot enough to prevent condensing.

EBEBRATT-Ed

It's worked all this time leave it alone or stick a fork in it

STEVEusaPA

WMno57 said:

…
Which came first, the chicken, or the egg?…

Egg

JakeCK

STEVEusaPA said:

… Which came first, the chicken, or the egg?…

Egg

Neither. Both coevolved together. lol

ratio

STEVEusaPA said:

WMno57 said:

…
Which came first, the chicken, or the egg?…

Egg

Nope. The rooster.

oldradiator

Final two questions:

1. there’s no doubt that if I want to continue having hydronic heat I’ll need to replace this boiler?

2. I have 5 Mitsubishi mini splits with HyperHeat in my home. For me it’s tough to swallow the cost for a replacement boiler if I can get by with the above. It’s our first winter with them so I have no idea. Also this isn’t our forever home so that makes it harder too.

delcrossv

A boiler replacement is mandatory to run the system IMO.

Even if you don't use it, I'd think a home inspector worth his salt will spot the leaking boiler when a new buyer comes by. Done correctly, it should be trouble free for a very long time.

Clean / repair chimney
New boiler with thermostatic bypass like @mattmia2 / @EBEBRATT-Ed suggest.
Fix flange leaks etc.
Done.

pecmsg

oldradiator said:

Final two questions:

1. there’s no doubt that if I want to continue having hydronic heat I’ll need to replace this boiler?

2. I have 5 Mitsubishi mini splits with HyperHeat in my home. For me it’s tough to swallow the cost for a replacement boiler if I can get by with the above. It’s our first winter with them so I have no idea. Also this isn’t our forever home so that makes it harder too.

So what will you have for heat When those minis go down, loose refrigerant, have a bad sensor and parts are a few days out at best?

Minnis are a good source of heat BUT are also very complicated machines with thousands of OEM parts that are only available from the dealer. Add to that a good boiler Properly sized and installed should last 20 - 30 years. Minis 7 1/2 - 10 years before obsolete.

oldradiator

delcrossv said:

A boiler replacement is mandatory to run the system IMO. Even if you don't use it, I'd think a home inspector worth his salt will spot the leaking boiler when a new buyer comes by. Done correctly, it should be trouble free for a very long time. Clean / repair chimney New boiler with thermostatic bypass like @mattmia2 / @EBEBRATT-Ed suggest. Fix flange leaks etc. Done.

Only reason I’m second guessing the last tech was this response from another contact:

There is some evidence that there is a leak there but I believe that’s the side of the boiler where the pump is and it could be the nipple that goes into the boiler that’s for leaking over the years

I need to know what the burner looks like

delcrossv

oldradiator said:

delcrossv said:

A boiler replacement is mandatory to run the system IMO.

Even if you don't use it, I'd think a home inspector worth his salt will spot the leaking boiler when a new buyer comes by. Done correctly, it should be trouble free for a very long time.

Clean / repair chimney
New boiler with thermostatic bypass like @mattmia2 / @EBEBRATT-Ed suggest.
Fix flange leaks etc.
Done.

Only reason I’m second guessing the last tech was this response from another contact:

There is some evidence that there is a leak there but I believe that’s the side of the boiler where the pump is and it could be the nipple that goes into the boiler that’s for leaking over the years

I need to know what the burner looks like

Did you get in touch with JohnNY? If you look at the bottom of the nipple, you'd see staining there if it were from the nipple.

oldradiator

delcrossv said:

delcrossv said:

A boiler replacement is mandatory to run the system IMO. Even if you don't use it, I'd think a home inspector worth his salt will spot the leaking boiler when a new buyer comes by. Done correctly, it should be trouble free for a very long time. Clean / repair chimney New boiler with thermostatic bypass like @mattmia2 / @EBEBRATT-Ed suggest. Fix flange leaks etc. Done.

Only reason I’m second guessing the last tech was this response from another contact:

There is some evidence that there is a leak there but I believe that’s the side of the boiler where the pump is and it could be the nipple that goes into the boiler that’s for leaking over the years

I need to know what the burner looks like

Did you get in touch with JohnNY? If you look at the bottom of the nipple, you'd see staining there if it were from the nipple.

I did get in touch with John.

I will see if I can figure out how to check that.

Thanks for everyone’s patience!

oldradiator

Couldn’t figure how to fire up the pilot (lol) so can’t tell what color the flame is.

ratio

Uh, the little thing to the right & lower than the gas valve, with two electrical terminals sticking up & a silver round part sticking down, that's the rollout switch, it's supposed to shut off the boiler if the flames come out the front instead of going where they're supposed to. It's unhooked. I suspect the two blue wires in the pic above are supposed to go to it.

This is a pretty big safety hazard, the kind where Bad Things Happen if that part can't do it's job.

oldradiator

ratio said:

Uh, the little thing to the right & lower than the gas valve, with two electrical terminals sticking up & a silver round part sticking down, that's the rollout switch, it's supposed to shut off the boiler if the flames come out the front instead of going where they're supposed to. It's unhooked. I suspect the two blue wires in the pic above are supposed to go to it.

This is a pretty big safety hazard, the kind where Bad Things Happen if that part can't do it's job.

One of the techs did that because he said something else melted preventing him from turning the boiler on 

SlamDunk

It is a fuse with a melting point. not resettable. remove and replace. So, you may have had a burner flame roll out of the burner box far enough to melt the switch. Not good. It is like a grill explosion. Hopefully, when you replace your boiler, you will have chimney checked and the installer will do you right with tuning the burner

delcrossv

If you look into the hole the nipple goes into, toward the bottom is there a large rust stain and evidence of wetness? You can usually get a pinky or small stick/ flatblade screwdriver in there to give it a scrape under where the nipple threads into the heat exchanger. If it's not wet and rusty, it's not the problem.

Also is the bottom of the cover below the nipple hole rusty or the insulation damp? You can feel for that as well.

I'm guessing not and the leak is in the HE itself, but easy enough to check.

hot_rod

Spend a winter with those mini splits belching lukewarm air on you, and a hydronic redo will look a lot more desirable

SuperTech

SlamDunk said:

It is a fuse with a melting point. not resettable. remove and replace. So, you may have had a burner flame roll out of the burner box far enough to melt the switch. Not good. It is like a grill explosion. Hopefully, when you replace your boiler, you will have chimney checked and the installer will do you right with tuning the burner

That looks like a resettable rollout switch with a red button on the top to reset it. Not a thermal fuse. Either way it's a very inexpensive part to replace and the boiler shouldn't be operating without it reconnected. 

oldradiator

New install

GW

Nice! I woulda did this and that differently but it’s good to have a new steed in the barn. 

HomerJSmith

I was thoroughly trained by my wife!

Ya, good help is hard to come by, sometimes. I was out on a job a couple of weeks ago for a furnace that wasn't working. A well qualified tech had checked it out a day before. He said that the five wire gas valve needed replacing and they don't make those anymore. Holy Smoke, I ain't never seen one of those animals, but maybe they reside in the dark, dark recessed of closets somewhere.

Of course, it was the ignition module which he had pulled several wire off and not bothered checking. C’est la vie!

Check off another successful fix for Homer without burning down the house.

SlamDunk

Hope you have many years of happy heating. No troubles with chimney?

mattmia2

SlamDunk said:

Hope you have many years of happy heating. No troubles with chimney?

let's hope all that fresh mortar is from a liner

STEVEusaPA

ratio said:

STEVEusaPA said:

WMno57 said:

…
Which came first, the chicken, or the egg?…

Egg

Nope. The rooster.

If you believe in evolution it has to be the egg

MikeL_2

I would be interested to know the size of that flue before the liner was installed.........

WMno57

@oldradiator Congratulations! There is no better form of heat than vintage cast iron radiators. Glad you got a new boiler. Did you go with one of the original five Pros?

oldradiator

WMno57 said:

@oldradiator Congratulations! There is no better form of heat than vintage cast iron radiators. Glad you got a new boiler. Did you go with one of the original five Pros?

i did. i went with the first one that diagnosed the cracked heat exchanger. reason? largely cost. they were by far the most affordable.