Help - Boiler at 3800 ppm CO

chilidip

Help needed.

I recently purchased a house in December of 2019.  Different issues keep coming up.  Looking for expert advice on what to do.

During the home inspection the inspector noted it needed an expansion tank and a pressure relief valve.  So I contacted (2) companies to quote me on the parts that needed changed.  First company came back with $ to replace the parts.  I thought $ was too expensive.  I called a 2nd company to come out and give me a quote.  Well I asked the 2nd company to just do a boiler service first then quote.

The 2nd company started the service and got 3800 ppm CO with the boiler.  He said by law he had to stop because it was 3800 ppm.  He recommended replacing the boiler, instead of taking it apart to clean it.  

Boiler is a Hydrotherm - 24V - Model HC-85.  Serial number is OW2860, which when I called Hydrotherm it is pre-1967.

The seller did not disclose the age of the boiler, nor did the home inspector catch this.  

My questions are:

1. 3800 ppm CO is high, I think deadly is over 200 to 300 ppm.  Can this be fixed for it to last (1) more winter?
2. Does home warranty cover this for a replacement ? 

Thank you,

rick in Alaska

Do not use this boiler until you get it fixed!!! Very dangerous.
3800 is incredibly high. 50 is more reasonable for the majority of the boilers, but zero is what we try to get.
Hard to say if the boiler is worth fixing, but I would want to see at least two other opinions/quotes.
Rick

chilidip

Sounds good thank you.  Does home warranty cover this ?

Jamie Hall

chilidip said:

Sounds good thank you.  Does home warranty cover this ?

Maybe. Maybe not. It may also be a concealed defect. Contact your insurance agency -- and, maybe, a good lawyer.

And in the meantime, turn it off with the emergency switch and it's breaker, if it's on a separate circuit (which it should be, by the way).

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Those Hydrotherm boilers are workhorses and I would spend the money to take it apart to clean the heat exchanger (HX), but that's just me. It's not hard to do, but it should be done by a person that has done it before because you have to remove the top cover, insulation, flue collector, all the burners and then wash down the HX.

From the fact that it has sooted up, it sounds as though you have radiant heat (not radiators) without proper boiler protection.

Home warranty may cover it, but I wouldn't trust anyone they send out. It's just my experience. Find someone reliable and willing and then get it okayed by the warranty company.

HomerJSmith

I would have someone else with a recently calibrated CO meter redo the test. You should always ask when his meter was calibrated.

You have to do a warm up of the boiler before taking a test.

Something that happened to me. I took a CO test on a condensing boiler and it was coming 2800ppm +. Gasp, I had to move my meter to the outside air and clear it. Well, the customer noted that I had the meter set to NG and he was on Propane. Way to go Homer.

Make sure the meter is set to your fuel type, just saying.

chilidip

Yes it is frustrating.  Just multiple items not disclosed.  Example, all the electrical was replaced and upgraded, they forgot to do that In the attic.  

Thank you for the comments.  

mattmia2

"forgot"

pecmsg

chilidip said:

Sounds good thank you.  Does home warranty cover this ?

Home Warranty's are a S C A M

chilidip

I am starting to believe that they are.  4 junction boxes In the attic were discovered by me after I was doing a project.  Uncovered.  You had new 12/2 wire, old cloth wrapped wire, and older 12/2.  Started sparking. 

pecmsg

Home Warranty
or
Home Inspector

? ? ?

chilidip

Maybe both.  The home inspector can’t lift insulation during the inspection.  

EBEBRATT-Ed

@chilidip

I would certainly have it serviced by someone competent. Sadly, many will recommend a replacement when all it may need is a good cleaning as @Alan (California Radiant) Forbes suggested.

Where are you located? Did you check "find a contractor on this site"

chilidip

Western PA.  I did not I will do that. 

Zman

You absolutely need to get someone competent to look at the whole system. Be sure to have them inspect the flue as well.

I am not sure I see the wisdom of spending much money repairing the boiler. Yes, it is a quality product but it is over 53 years old. You could end up spending a bunch of money trying to fix it only to end up replacing it.

SlamDunk

I'll bet you can get more seasons out of it if you can find the right person to work on it. I would try to postpone replacement if I didnt have the funds available

EBEBRATT-Ed

agree with @SlamDunk Its a lot easier when you can plan, budget and find the right contractor.

I think we have some PA contractors on this site. If they are too far away they may have someone they recommend

retiredguy

If you are in western Pa. and probably around Pittsburgh, Pa I can recommend 2 companies to call. In the south hills, Denillo Heating and cooling and in the north hills Bolster - Dehart. Both have been in business many years and should b able to provide the service you need.

gennady

After proper maintenance and set up this boiler will perform great.

STEVEusaPA

HomerJSmith said:

...
Something that happened to me. I took a CO test on a condensing boiler and it was coming 2800ppm +. Gasp, I had to move my meter to the outside air and clear it. Well, the customer noted that I had the meter set to NG and he was on Propane. Way to go Homer.

Make sure the meter is set to your fuel type, just saying.

I'm gonna have to call question this, to put it nicely. A properly working meter reading 2800ppm because the wrong fuel? Nox filter?
I tried it with my Insight. The CO didn't change.

SuperTech

I'm pretty sure most combustion analyzers will read the same CO concentration regardless of which fuel is selected. 

Zman

Almost all analyzers measure Temp, 02 and CO and calculate the rest. Some calculations will be effected by incorrect fuel input. "Air Free CO" may be one of them, the actual CO reading is not.

HomerJSmith

STEVEusaPA, It's a fact, Jack. But, I can't remember if it was my old meter or my UEI replacement meter. Oh, well, when things don't go the way we planned, what we get is experience.

After I set the fuel type, I was able to set the hi and low fire. Why, you ask??? Only Lamont Cranston knows.

captainco

Steveusa is correct. The only things the fuel setting affects is the analyzers approximate calculations, No CO meter I have check in the past 35 years has ever been off more than 30%, which means even 70% of 3800 ppm is deadly.

Bolster- Dehart would be an excellent choice. If it is fixable they would be the ones to know.

justkikn

DISCLAIMER: Don't do anything unless you know what you are doing and are comfortable doing it. If not, get a professional. The point of this comment is to share my experience, not make any recommendations for other boilers or systems that I am not familiar with.

These hydrotherms are mules. Yes you can get a new boiler, but the new high efficiency units last 10 years and then have to be replaced, and the new cast iron can be expensive, and often not recommended. Even though it is gas, which doesn't require cleaning like oil, over this many years these boiler heat exchangers need to be cleaned. My understanding is the heat exchanger cells do not need to be taken apart, most of the time it can be blown out but can make a mess, so care must be taken to protect or remove the burners, and wrap the boiler to encapsulate any soot before/while blowing it out. Over time non-combustibles and dust in the combustion air builds up on the heat exchanger and in the ports adjacent to the baffles, which reduces efficiency and prevents exhaust gas from traveling up the flue (Look for signs of roll out - aka signs of burning bottom and outside panels, or at penetrations on the panel like where the boiler temperature control and gauge are). One can turn the boiler off, turn the gas off, and pull the draft hood and look inside you should see a flat narrow plate (baffle), which covers the top of the heat exchanger where the combustion gases pass. On either side of the flat plate should be openings that allow the gas to pass to the flue, but if those are blocked with soot, that can cause the combustion gas to back up and roll out of boiler. The dome can be removed with 2 nuts, and it exposes the entire heat exchanger. I used 1/2" round brushes and cleaned the heat exchangers (this was more time consuming but more thorough and controlled when it came to the soot) installed a new gasket for the dome and reassembled. Again, assuming nothing else is wrong, these boilers are beasts. With the exception of minor part changes like relief valves, make up valves, expansion tanks, air vents, and the occasional circulator pump, it should do the job for quite a few more years. Unfortunately this job can be time consuming and messy, and many contractors will just want to talk you into a new boiler.
The expression "they don't make them like they used to" applies when it comes to these boilers.

tim smith

Is this natural gas? If so you probably have a utility supplying it. Normally they have gas & co emergency service. They can use their analyzer to verify the CO level. Usually utilities are required to have their meters calibrated quite often. If in fact you are high CO, the 1st thing I would do is get a reputable tech out to pull burners and look up in heat x to see if sooted or what. May just be very dirty burners causing poor air fuel mixture and burning real poorly. Probably will still have to brush out heat x. If sooted badly, get a power vac company in with boiler already taken apart and have them brush, blow and vacuum out with their large truck vacuum. It keeps soot from getting around house. If burner ports are corroded open to the point that they will never burn properly, you very likely will be in for new boiler. Highly doubt burners still available. Was there any work orders the prior owner had for of late maintenance on boiler? Just might give some insight to what's been done.
Good luck
Tim

STEVEusaPA

@justkikn 3 year old post.