BURNHAM IN8 residental gas boiler pipeing ???

mattmia2

The 2 outlets of a boiler when set up for steam are a result of how the boiler is manufactured and assembled, each section has an interconnection, they connect to each other on the middle sections, they are the steam outlets on the end sections. On modern boilers they need to both be used and sometimes the outlet piping needs to be upsized to slow down the steam, separate the steam from the water, and keep the steam from pulling the water out of the boiler with it. The header needs to be constructed in a specific manner to promote the water to separate and drop in to the return to the boiler, not get trapped in the header, and not be pulled in to the system with the steam. On a boiler set up for hot water frequently only one tapping needs to be used or different trappings can be used for different purposes, but on a boiler set up for steam, both trappings must be used and connected to a common header before splitting out to multiple mains if the system has multiple mains.

If you do not do this, the water pulled in to the steam mains will cause water hammer, unstable boiler water levels, and may pull water in to radiators where it may be pushed out the vents. The near boiler piping is critical to make the system function properly.

ChrisJ

mattmia2 said:

The 2 outlets of a boiler when set up for steam are a result of how the boiler is manufactured and assembled, each section has an interconnection, they connect to each other on the middle sections, they are the steam outlets on the end sections. On modern boilers they need to both be used and sometimes the outlet piping needs to be upsized to slow down the steam, separate the steam from the water, and keep the steam from pulling the water out of the boiler with it. The header needs to be constructed in a specific manner to promote the water to separate and drop in to the return to the boiler, not get trapped in the header, and not be pulled in to the system with the steam. On a boiler set up for hot water frequently only one tapping needs to be used or different trappings can be used for different purposes, but on a boiler set up for steam, both trappings must be used and connected to a common header before splitting out to multiple mains if the system has multiple mains. If you do not do this, the water pulled in to the steam mains will cause water hammer, unstable boiler water levels, and may pull water in to radiators where it may be pushed out the vents. The near boiler piping is critical to make the system function properly.

IMO the "outlet piping" or risers should never be upsized bigger than the tappings.  It slows the steam after water has already left the boiler and the only thing it could possibly do is trap water in the risers.  That's bad.    

This is why the header is bigger. It slows the steam down allowing water to separate and not get dragged with the steam and drains.  

EBEBRATT-Ed

Most don't have a threader to do anything larger than 2" so they do 2" even if the MFG calls for larger pipe.

If they do size it right it's copper sweat or propress or steel with Megapress

billy42945

THANKS FOR EVERYONE'S INPUT ON THIS SUBJECT.I DID NOT REALISE I SHOULD HAVE POSTED THIS ON ORIGANIAL POST .
(NEW TO at ths
PICTURES OF THE boiler on the first post.

Burnham IN 8 residential gas boiler pipeing.

Erin Holohan Haskell

@billy42945, we've merged all of your posts about the Burnham together here.

billy42945

Thanks for your help and understanding we are all still learning and when we stop we are uneducated !!

billy42945

This is a picture of how the general contractor let his sub contractor carpenters cut out the near boiler pipeing.
Note they did not need a manual it was not in there language.
They had no idea of a header is and will never know.

Sorry my dad was a bricklayer and he informed me that they
Thought they could do any ones work.
50 years later it still the truth. I have the breasted respect for people who do this type of pipeing.

billy42945

This is the image of header pipeing of the Burnham IN 8
That was cut out with a saws all the original person who put this in told me he does not care to to do this work any more
It brings tears to my eyes. IF A poem buy kipping.
IF YOU CAN BEAR THE THINGS YOU DONE BROKEN AND BUILD THEM BACK
UP WITH WITH WORN OUT TOOLS AND START OUT AT THE BEGING AND NEVER BREATH ABOUT YOUR LOSS.

YOU ARE A MAN MY SON!! (AT LEAST YOU SHOULD CRY)

ChrisJ

I don't feel you need to be an expert to cut piping out with a Sawzall.


However whoever puts it back needs to know what they're doing and I don't care what their title is.   There's plenty of heating contractors that have no business touching a steam boiler. And yet, there's at least one carpenter that could pipe one correctly without a book.

Ironman

The shame of it is that there were unions from which it could have easily been disconnected without cutting anything.

billy42945

billy42945 said:

This is the image of header pipeing of the Burnham IN 8
That was cut out with a saws all the original person who put this in told me he does not care to to do this work any more
It brings tears to my eyes. IF A poem buy kipping.
IF YOU CAN BEAR THE THINGS YOU DONE BROKEN AND BUILD THEM BACK
UP WITH WITH WORN OUT TOOLS AND START OUT AT THE BEGING AND NEVER BREATH ABOUT YOUR LOSS.

YOU ARE A MAN MY SON!! (AT LEAST YOU SHOULD CRY)

DO not Judge !!! For they know not what they Do !!

billy42945

ChrisJ said:

I don't feel you need to be an expert to cut piping out with a Sawzall.


However whoever puts it back needs to know what they're doing and I don't care what their title is.   There's plenty of heating contractors that have no business touching a steam boiler. And yet, there's at least one carpenter that could pipe one correctly without a book.

Are you referring to Jesus Christ !!

billy42945

billy42945

Looks like contractor has manual Not done yet but this was done today . Will post finished work thanks for all your Input.

ChrisJ

billy42945 said:

I don't feel you need to be an expert to cut piping out with a Sawzall.


However whoever puts it back needs to know what they're doing and I don't care what their title is.   There's plenty of heating contractors that have no business touching a steam boiler. And yet, there's at least one carpenter that could pipe one correctly without a book.

Are you referring to Jesus Christ !!

My old man was a carpenter for 50 years and helped me pipe my boiler.

He could do it again no problem thanks to Dan's books.

JohnNY

This thread is painful.

billy42945

Thanks John NY
In MA. ITS UP TO each TOWN in MA. To have a Mechanical
Inspector. Our town does not have one . I Informed the home owner of this who was going to wait untill his boiler work was done and wait for Plumbing inspections. I INPLORED HIM THAT HIS BOILER WAS ONLY 4 years and he had a service contractor that I contacted and they told me to have him call for a inspection it would not cost him a anything. Not only did they not like what they seen they called the Burnham Reb . That's when things got better.

billy42945

ChrisJ said:

billy42945 said:

ChrisJ said:

I don't feel you need to be an expert to cut piping out with a Sawzall.


However whoever puts it back needs to know what they're doing and I don't care what their title is.   There's plenty of heating contractors that have no business touching a steam boiler. And yet, there's at least one carpenter that could pipe one correctly without a book.

Are you referring to Jesus Christ !!

My old man was a carpenter for 50 years and helped me pipe my boiler.

He could do it again no problem thanks to Dan's books.

CHRIS THANK YOU , FOR YOUR PASSIONATE REPLAY ABOUT YOUR DAD!!
HE BELIEVED IN DAN'S BOOKS AND I THINK THATS WHAT MADE HIM AND YOU BETTER PEOPLE.
My responce to people in my Trade Electrical ( Trouble shooting after 50 Plus years.

I COULD DO IT QUICKER TOO WHEN I DID NOT KNOW WHAT I WAS DOING.

ChrisJ

billy42945 said:

ChrisJ said:

billy42945 said:

ChrisJ said:

I don't feel you need to be an expert to cut piping out with a Sawzall.


However whoever puts it back needs to know what they're doing and I don't care what their title is.   There's plenty of heating contractors that have no business touching a steam boiler. And yet, there's at least one carpenter that could pipe one correctly without a book.

Are you referring to Jesus Christ !!

My old man was a carpenter for 50 years and helped me pipe my boiler.

He could do it again no problem thanks to Dan's books.

CHRIS THANK YOU , FOR YOUR PASSIONATE REPLAY ABOUT YOUR DAD!!
HE BELIEVED IN DAN'S BOOKS AND I THINK THATS WHAT MADE HIM AND YOU BETTER PEOPLE.
My responce to people in my Trade Electrical ( Trouble shooting after 50 Plus years.

I COULD DO IT QUICKER TOO WHEN I DID NOT KNOW WHAT I WAS DOING.




Both of us like Dan's books.
I'd never do work without knowing what I was doing was correct.

I wish Dan would do more books. I like how he writes.

@DanHolohan I need some books on 3D modeling and 5 axis CNC machining please.

DanHolohan

😂. Thanks. 

billy42945

Thanks but i have a long way to catch up with Dan's posts.

billy42945

This hartfood loop looks good but why the
Copper water feed for make up water in tee below the Hartford loop.what happens if this brakes ???

billy42945

Top down view of auto/manual water feed below Hartford Loop.
For boiler make up water !!!

billy42945

Now if you have a problem pipeing to water feed or the water feeder itself your boiler water could drain bypassing the loop.
Hope the other trade wired your low water cut out right.
Been on a lot of miss wired low water cut outs troubles !!

billy42945

Company empolyie working on job today thought I went to far buy posting this on the internet I told him I would have posted to his company but they only had a web site and no Email to send pictures too they are just to big and I guess why should they look at what I think is wrong they after all are a team who does not need help ??? If you want to be on team work for Walmart!!

billy42945

IF they think I went to far by posting to the internet on the wall.
Waite to they see the Movie.
The **** Show. ****=**** did know if could post this word ??

billy42945

I can't find a black flow preventer on the automatic water boiler water feeder I guess there excuse will be be they are not finished yet !! Thank *** note ***=GOD HOPE I CAN USE THIS WORD

billy42945

Check out page 202 of Dan holahan boiler feeder 1992 the lost art lost art of steam heating. In 1969 I took Buhrkhart book
On oil burners
1969 book to troubleshoot ..aA jop for a plumber. The owner was upset that I needed a book to solve his problem not many people at this time knew what ZC or ZR TERMINALS WERE FOR ON HOT WATER SYSTEM NOR THEY DO 50 years later at this time .
The terminal 2 to 3 is a jumper that has to be install depending on what voltage you want to feed the make up water coil.

billy42945

THIS IMAGE IS NOT BOILER IN QUESTION ON MY IN8 POST.

NOTE BOILER WATER MAKE UP IN THIS PIC BEFORE HARTFORT LOOP NOT AFTER IN MY POST OF THE BURNHAM IN 8.

billy42945

The new Hartford loop with the wet returne above the boiler water line . Any comments

EdTheHeaterMan

This looks like a picture we have already viewed above. I see no Hartford loop in this photo?!? There is no equalizer in this photo.

If this is a correction of previously failed piping, then you need to get someone who knows something before this winter.
you see in the illustration below, the return water must enter the boiler below the waterline... not above the waterline.

August 16 post of old piping has a proper Hartford loop. It might be time for a Lawyer.

This illustration shows the HARTFORD LOOP

EdTheHeaterMan

The second picture from Aug 12 looks like someone is getting it right.

Is the Picture from Aug 17 a mistake?


@JohnNY said "This thread is painful." on Aug 12
@EdTheHeaterMan Says: "This thread is painful." on August 18

billy42945

Yes ment to show boiler feed water to boiler after Hartford loop !! Aug 12 picture is getting a lot better will post final when they get things right note no back flow preventer for boiler automatic fed make up water.

billy42945

in the picture posted the 1/2 inch copper pipe into 2 inch tee is auto feeder make water after the hartford loop into boiler is this ok ??

ChrisJ

billy42945 said:

in the picture posted the 1/2 inch copper pipe into 2 inch tee is auto feeder make water after the hartford loop into boiler is this ok ??

Many feed a boiler in this location.
I did on my own. It allows fresh washer to get to the boiler faster to drive O2 out.

As far as what if the pipe breaks, the LWCO will take care of it just like it will in any other low water condition.

billy42945

Thanks for your comment . BUT THINK ABOUT WHAT THE HARTFORD LOOP IS FOR ITS TO MAKE SURE THE BOILER WATER DOES DRAIN LOWER THEN THE LOOP . IF YOU DEPEND ON THE LOW WATER CUT OUT WHY DID YOU PUT IN THE HARTFORD LOOP .?? BY FEEDING WATER AFTER IT ?? THANKS .

STEAM DOCTOR

Belt and suspenders. There is always pipe on the boiler side of the loop. That pipe is unprotected by the loop. 

ChrisJ

billy42945 said:

Thanks for your comment . BUT THINK ABOUT WHAT THE HARTFORD LOOP IS FOR ITS TO MAKE SURE THE BOILER WATER DOES DRAIN LOWER THEN THE LOOP . IF YOU DEPEND ON THE LOW WATER CUT OUT WHY DID YOU PUT IN THE HARTFORD LOOP .?? BY FEEDING WATER AFTER IT ?? THANKS .

I put a loop in because code required it.
Otherwise I probably wouldn't care.  There's been long arguments about it on here.

What happens if the LWCO fails and the pipe breaks after the loop?  The boiler slowly empties and dry fires because people rarely check on it until the house is cold.

Code requires it as does the manufacturer so you install it.  But anything on the boiler side is fine.

JUGHNE

Billy, the Hartford Loop idea was set in place just over 100 years ago.
Many boilers were coal fired, hard to shut down.
The technology for LWCO and feeders was limited.
Those boilers contained a lot of water that would give a little more time before the unit dry fired.

There has been much discussion here concerning the HL because boilers contain so little water. If the return lines are broken then not much time before dry firing. That is why LWCO's are so necessary.

The HL will probably stay in use forever.
You do not need one with a boiler feed pump, but you still need an equalizer.

billy42945

Circulator in picture lasted two weeks