Well characteristics and well pumps

Jamie Hall

Actually, there are water rights east of the Mississippi, but they only apply to surface waters -- and they can be remarkably arcane (in my immediate area, there are rights to a local river which date back to a mill erected in 1738... and are still in force!).

It is quite true that there are no limits on the use of groundwater in the east -- other than what one's own conscience might impose, and those are quite variable (or what Mother Nature imposes, particularly near the sea shore).

On the other hand, the common misconception is that there is ample water and no need to conserve. This is simply not true. Most public water supplies in the east (there are a few notable exceptions) have had to impose limits on use two or three times in the last decade or so, and I know of at least two which simply ran dry. For private wells, if the use is not consumptive there is rarely a problem, since most residences served by private wells are also served by septic systems. It's called recycling... If the lots are large enough (two acres for a four person family) it is usually closed loop recycling; on smaller lots, it's shared.

However, if the water use is consumptive, such as for irrigation, this no longer holds. It turns out that, for consumptive use (such as the lawns in this thread) the available water is around 700 gallons per day, per acre of permeable surface, such as might be woodland or agricultural fields. It's about half that for surfaces such as well maintained lawns, and nothing for driveways and rooves and the like (this is not an opinion; it's just plain math and science). That's averaged over the year, of course. So, if your average water use is greater than that, you are borrowing from your neighbours, and borrowing or not, the static water level in the well will fall over the summer months.

As I note, there is no regulation against it; whether your neighbours mind or not is for you and them to figure out.

Timco

Averaged over the year. I water from late April to late September. I pull zero during the winter months for irrigation and it’s just the two of us, but I do have a large sunflower looking shower head so there’s that.....can I get the source of the info on the 700 gal / day rule?

Jamie Hall said:

Actually, there are water rights east of the Mississippi, but they only apply to surface waters -- and they can be remarkably arcane (in my immediate area, there are rights to a local river which date back to a mill erected in 1738... and are still in force!).

It is quite true that there are no limits on the use of groundwater in the east -- other than what one's own conscience might impose, and those are quite variable (or what Mother Nature imposes, particularly near the sea shore).

On the other hand, the common misconception is that there is ample water and no need to conserve. This is simply not true. Most public water supplies in the east (there are a few notable exceptions) have had to impose limits on use two or three times in the last decade or so, and I know of at least two which simply ran dry. For private wells, if the use is not consumptive there is rarely a problem, since most residences served by private wells are also served by septic systems. It's called recycling... If the lots are large enough (two acres for a four person family) it is usually closed loop recycling; on smaller lots, it's shared.

However, if the water use is consumptive, such as for irrigation, this no longer holds. It turns out that, for consumptive use (such as the lawns in this thread) the available water is around 700 gallons per day, per acre of permeable surface, such as might be woodland or agricultural fields. It's about half that for surfaces such as well maintained lawns, and nothing for driveways and rooves and the like (this is not an opinion; it's just plain math and science). That's averaged over the year, of course. So, if your average water use is greater than that, you are borrowing from your neighbours, and borrowing or not, the static water level in the well will fall over the summer months.

As I note, there is no regulation against it; whether your neighbours mind or not is for you and them to figure out.

Jamie Hall

The source information is, as I say, basic science -- or engineering, if you will: in New England, on open soils with good infiltration, the normal infiltration rate from precipitation is 10 inches per year (USDA -- I have the publication somewhere, but I'd have to dig some to find it; that's one of those things which you learn when you are an apprentice engineer, and that was 60 years ago now...). Hard soils, about half that -- and impervious surfaces, of course zero. You can also back calculate those numbers from Corps of Engineers publication TR-55, a commonly used handbook in civil engineering, and other approaches (which wind up in the same place) can be found in Rein Laak's text on septic system design or in Metcalf&Eddy's Manual of Wastewater Design (the latter -- and Tr-55 -- are much more interested in how much runs off, of course -- but if it doesn't run off or evaporate, it infiltrates).

There are tilling options which can be used to increase the infiltration -- but we're not talking agriculture here!

Interestingly, the total infiltration doesn't drop off that much as you go west, until you get to almost 100 degrees west -- where the total precipitation for the year takes over as the limit.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I no nothing about wells.

But

Isn't the water going right back down to where it came from??

Larry Weingarten

Hello, I don't claim to know how much water, grass needs as I live in the arid West and got rid of my lawn long ago. It might be that watering less often but a bit more per session could encourage the grass to send its roots deeper, saving water overall.

But there is a problem. I see that @Timco has been a member of this forum for over fifteen years, has contributed steadily and received lots of good feedback for what he's given. Here, he asked for technical advice, but is being challenged, as I see it, on moral grounds. How about we use our brainpower to help him both figure out the technical fix and consider ways to help him use less water and achieve what he wants to do? If the goal were to drive him away, we couldn't be doing a much better job. This thread is beginning to remind me of years past where we had some real knock down, drag out "discussions".

Yours, Larry

Jamie Hall

To @EBEBRATT-Ed 's question -- no, irrigation water is taken up by the plants and then evaporated or transpired into the atmosphere (that's why a nice green lawn is cooler than a brown one!). I have used just that phenomenon in the past to create some interesting septic systems in areas where the soil just doesn't perc. at all.

And to @Larry Weingarten 's comment, I expect he's right, looking back on my previous comments, and I apologise. I should have learned to keep my moral and ethical judgements to myself, but I sometimes slip.

Timco

Thanks. After some real help this turned into more of a traffic stop than help...I appreciate the advise on the speed control. I’ve found many for koi pond pumps and VFD drivers but not any for a fixed 240v 3/4hp pump. I’ll look more today. Seekonk supply said they had never heard of such a thing...the rest went:

Reply: Sir, where are you headed with all that water?

Me: I’m watering my lawn...

Reply: You shouldn’t need all that water...You Must be keeping up with the Jones’s..

Me: But I do. I just need a bit more water.

Reply: That’s wasteful. I don’t use that much. I let my lawn die..and now I don’t have to mow...

Me: I’m not running it down the street, I adjusted coverage, and I only water each zone every other day. It’s even internet controlled to not water when it rains. I mow weekly all summer.

Reply: You’re stealing from your neighbor.

Me: My neighbor has almost twice as much land and waters every day..all grass. I’ve never accused him of stealing from me. It even waters when it rains.

Reply: Can I see your permit, registration, and water rights for that well?

Me: There are no such requirements here.

Reply: Many places on the other end of the US do require those things you know.

Me: Not here sir.

Reply: You know, golf courses have permits and use twice as much water.

Me: I’m not a golf course. I’m just a guy trying to water his lawn.

Reply: Some people use millions of BTUs to heat pools. Is it legal? Sure. Is it ethical? No.

Me: I’m not connected to gas and I don’t have a pool.

Reply: I’m just saying, you’re doing the same thing.

Me: Again, just trying to get a few hundred gallons of water a bit faster.

Reply: Use your old pump. You’re killing your well!

Me: I’m aware of that. That’s why I posted. I need to cut back the new pump. They don’t make a 5/8hp or a 9/16hp pump...

Larry Weingarten said:

Hello, I don't claim to know how much water, grass needs as I live in the arid West and got rid of my lawn long ago. It might be that watering less often but a bit more per session could encourage the grass to send its roots deeper, saving water overall.

But there is a problem. I see that @Timco has been a member of this forum for over fifteen years, has contributed steadily and received lots of good feedback for what he's given. Here, he asked for technical advice, but is being challenged, as I see it, on moral grounds. How about we use our brainpower to help him both figure out the technical fix and consider ways to help him use less water and achieve what he wants to do? If the goal were to drive him away, we couldn't be doing a much better job. This thread is beginning to remind me of years past where we had some real knock down, drag out "discussions".

Yours, Larry

ChrisJ

Timco said:

Thanks. After some real help this turned into more of a traffic stop than help...I appreciate the advise on the speed control. I’ve found many for koi pond pumps and VFD drivers but not any for a fixed 240v 3/4hp pump. I’ll look more today. Seekonk supply said they had never heard of such a thing...the rest went:

Reply: Sir, where are you headed with all that water?

Me: I’m watering my lawn...

Reply: You shouldn’t need all that water...You Must be keeping up with the Jones’s..

Me: But I do. I just need a bit more water.

Reply: That’s wasteful. I don’t use that much. I let my lawn die..and now I don’t have to mow...

Me: I’m not running it down the street, I adjusted coverage, and I only water each zone every other day. It’s even internet controlled to not water when it rains. I mow weekly all summer.

Reply: You’re stealing from your neighbor.

Me: My neighbor has almost twice as much land and waters every day..all grass. I’ve never accused him of stealing from me. It even waters when it rains.

Reply: Can I see your permit, registration, and water rights for that well?

Me: There are no such requirements here.

Reply: Many places on the other end of the US do require those things you know.

Me: Not here sir.

Reply: You know, golf courses have permits and use twice as much water.

Me: I’m not a golf course. I’m just a guy trying to water his lawn.

Reply: Some people use millions of BTUs to heat pools. Is it legal? Sure. Is it ethical? No.

Me: I’m not connected to gas and I don’t have a pool.

Reply: I’m just saying, you’re doing the same thing.

Me: Again, just trying to get a few hundred gallons of water a bit faster.

Reply: Use your old pump. You’re killing your well!

Me: I’m aware of that. That’s why I posted. I need to cut back the new pump. They don’t make a 5/8hp or a 9/16hp pump...

Larry Weingarten said:

Hello, I don't claim to know how much water, grass needs as I live in the arid West and got rid of my lawn long ago. It might be that watering less often but a bit more per session could encourage the grass to send its roots deeper, saving water overall.

But there is a problem. I see that @Timco has been a member of this forum for over fifteen years, has contributed steadily and received lots of good feedback for what he's given. Here, he asked for technical advice, but is being challenged, as I see it, on moral grounds. How about we use our brainpower to help him both figure out the technical fix and consider ways to help him use less water and achieve what he wants to do? If the goal were to drive him away, we couldn't be doing a much better job. This thread is beginning to remind me of years past where we had some real knock down, drag out "discussions".

Yours, Larry

I'm confused.

Did you break down what was said here, or did someone literally give you the same exact hard time over the phone?

hot_rod

If there is any underground piping, maybe pressure test to assure no leaks. Older sprink systems have a habit of breaking if not winterized properly.

Timco

That’s what was said in this thread. Over the phone, I was told by my “sprinkler guy” that serviced the property before we owned it, that I could never maintain it myself because it was “really complicated “ with “pumps and timers”. It took about an hour to switch over to a Hunter internet connected controller with an app to monitor it remotely. I was told it fills the cistern at 5-6 gpm. It actually fills at 2. I was told a yield test was $300. They said all they do is run it until the well is dry and there you go, that’s how much you can pull. I myself have now verified current depth and what it pulls as was and as is.

I’m not sure why so many feel the need to fight me morally on this. I can’t water deeper (my intent) without....let’s all say it together....MORE WATER!! And not twice as much, not a golf course, just a few hundred more gallons.

Some people got rid of their lawns. Some folks are vegan. Some own a Prius. I just had a question about my well pump pulling too fast from my well. It turns out there is a fix for that.

ChrisJ said:

Timco said:

Thanks. After some real help this turned into more of a traffic stop than help...I appreciate the advise on the speed control. I’ve found many for koi pond pumps and VFD drivers but not any for a fixed 240v 3/4hp pump. I’ll look more today. Seekonk supply said they had never heard of such a thing...the rest went:

Reply: Sir, where are you headed with all that water?

Me: I’m watering my lawn...

Reply: You shouldn’t need all that water...You Must be keeping up with the Jones’s..

Me: But I do. I just need a bit more water.

Reply: That’s wasteful. I don’t use that much. I let my lawn die..and now I don’t have to mow...

Me: I’m not running it down the street, I adjusted coverage, and I only water each zone every other day. It’s even internet controlled to not water when it rains. I mow weekly all summer.

Reply: You’re stealing from your neighbor.

Me: My neighbor has almost twice as much land and waters every day..all grass. I’ve never accused him of stealing from me. It even waters when it rains.

Reply: Can I see your permit, registration, and water rights for that well?

Me: There are no such requirements here.

Reply: Many places on the other end of the US do require those things you know.

Me: Not here sir.

Reply: You know, golf courses have permits and use twice as much water.

Me: I’m not a golf course. I’m just a guy trying to water his lawn.

Reply: Some people use millions of BTUs to heat pools. Is it legal? Sure. Is it ethical? No.

Me: I’m not connected to gas and I don’t have a pool.

Reply: I’m just saying, you’re doing the same thing.

Me: Again, just trying to get a few hundred gallons of water a bit faster.

Reply: Use your old pump. You’re killing your well!

Me: I’m aware of that. That’s why I posted. I need to cut back the new pump. They don’t make a 5/8hp or a 9/16hp pump...

Larry Weingarten said:

Hello, I don't claim to know how much water, grass needs as I live in the arid West and got rid of my lawn long ago. It might be that watering less often but a bit more per session could encourage the grass to send its roots deeper, saving water overall.

But there is a problem. I see that @Timco has been a member of this forum for over fifteen years, has contributed steadily and received lots of good feedback for what he's given. Here, he asked for technical advice, but is being challenged, as I see it, on moral grounds. How about we use our brainpower to help him both figure out the technical fix and consider ways to help him use less water and achieve what he wants to do? If the goal were to drive him away, we couldn't be doing a much better job. This thread is beginning to remind me of years past where we had some real knock down, drag out "discussions".

Yours, Larry

I'm confused.

Did you break down what was said here, or did someone literally give you the same exact hard time over the phone?

JUGHNE

IIWM, the first thing I would try is some form of flow control, on either pump. Then maybe a cycle timer to allow the well to recover.
I would assume a pump pressure control in the event of too much flow restriction and also a high pressure relief valve as a submersible can get the pressure up to blow fittings apart IIRC.


BTW, I don't let my lawn die, it just goes thru a natural cycle and still has to be mowed.


You might be starting to feel like someone who wants to tear out a perfectly built vapor/vacuum steam system and replace it with FAF heat pump and coming here for advice and stones are thrown at you.

But don't despair, water is a touchy subject across the country and it doesn't take much to poke the hornets nest.

ChrisJ

I'm just over here amazed golf courses use 300,000 gallons per day and that's ok because they paid for a piece of paper.

ratio

To use a VFD, you might need to switch to a 3 phase pump. I'm unaware of a commercially available VFD for a single phase motor.

Jamie Hall

Setting aside any value considerations, @Timco , it is my honest evaluation, as a registered PE and licensed well driller, that you would be better served with the old, lower flow pump running most of, or all of, the day to provide the water which you want.

Like your supplier, I am not aware of any speed controls for 3/4 hp 240 volt pumps which are easily available. The problem is that they are all squirrel cage motors of one sort or another (unless it is three phase), and the speed of those is set by the frequency of the power (in North America, 60 hz) which is supplied to them and by the design of the motor (typically 2 pole -- 3500 rpm or 4 pole, 1750 rpm). Thus you need a variable frequency drive and, while they are available for small motors -- and, for that matter, for big ones -- they are not cheap, even for small ones.

Given the existing pump, then, the solution is as has been suggested: throttle it to 2 to 3 gpm -- no more (again that is not an ethical consideration, that is my professional judgement based on what you have told us about the well, given as a well driller). Put a low water shutoff in the well to protect the pump (I always installed one on the wells I did anyway) and a pressure relief valve on the piping at or very near the well, to protect the piping. If it were mine, I'd use a float switch on the cistern, as I suggested above, but you could, of course, adjust a timer or manually turn the pump on or off as needed.

I am dismayed, again writing solely as an engineer and well driller, at what you were told about a flow (capacity) test for your well. That's not your problem, of course! But it's also not a real pump test. Not even close -- although I used to see it done all the time. There really are two kinds of capacity tests -- for a residential or low flow irrigation well, such as yours, it's about as exciting as watching paint dry -- but requires only that the well be pumped at a steady flow for at least 12 hours, while plotting the depth of water in the well (electronic data loggers are a big help!). For bigger wells -- such as the ones I used to do for municipal supplies -- it requires 72 hours of constant flow and at least two additional monitoring wells (sometimes more), all of which are logged.

There is no reason why, if you were curious, you couldn't do a pretty decent job of a capacity test on your own, for your purposes. While electronic loggers are really nice, you can make a perfectly good water level sensor yourself -- all you need is a good tape measure (long enough!) and a "plunker" at the end -- which is a fancy name for a 1 inch socket fastened at the end. You'll miss the initial drawdown -- which is nice to know but not absolutely required (though you do need the static level pump off for at least 24 hours) -- but the procedure is simple enough: start the pump and adjust the flow to some reasonable flow (in this case, I'd again suggest 2 to 3 gpm, but something which you positively know you can run for 12 hours). Make sure you adjust the flow to hold that; it will want to change as the well draws down. Then, every hour, stop the pump briefly and quickly measure the depth to water (if you can hear the plunker or have access to an electric depth tape, which buzzes when you reach water, don't stop the pump) every half hour and plot the results as drawdown vs. time. With any kind of luck at all the curve will flatten out after a few hours, and then you can figure your drawdown vs. depth relationship. This works for most smaller wells, although in some cases the well is such that yield (expressed as gpm per foot of drawdown) can drop dramatically at greater drawdowns (it may not work for bigger wells -- there was one I did which didn't stabilize for a week... we were bored...).

Timco

I have walked the entire grounds zone by zone. I swapped over 12 heads now that sprayed odd or under performed. No leaks or breaks, all valves close fully. Last winter I had the sprinkler guy blow them out but this year I have added a port to blow it out myself. I have records going back a few years of it being winterized correctly. Besides running a couple zones longer, I have added about 6 heads to fix gaps in coverage or to better water flower beds which accounts for the additional water I needed. Combine that with adding a garden hose from the irrigation system to water the far end new shrubs just as needed and I need to fill the cistern just a bit faster than 500 minutes. There's underground piping to all over the property but I am confident it's all intact.

hot_rod said:

If there is any underground piping, maybe pressure test to assure no leaks. Older sprink systems have a habit of breaking if not winterized properly.

hot_rod

ChrisJ said:

I'm just over here amazed golf courses use 300,000 gallons per day and that's ok because they paid for a piece of paper.

Water flows towards money 50 or more courses in the Vegas area. Nevada, the driest state in the nation.

Timco

I completely agree with your line of thought, but I am not asking how to cut back a 1 Mil BTU boiler to run only 2 rads or swap steam for scorched air, if I was I would totally understand. In this case, I went one size bigger pump as my only option and just need a speed controller (found one at Grainger) to cut that back since it is such a big jump. I read the pump curves for each pump, I pulled the well pump twice now (first time I cleaned it up and found pantyhose around it as a filter and it was totally blocked) and so on. It's these things I had to figure out for myself and overcome. I asked about this here because I have always loved the site, respected the members, and know many here. Plus, being east coast, many here would know exactly what I was doing. And it's fun to delve outside the normal discussions sometimes.

The well pump is currently on the sprinkler time clock as a zone that I can start as a program anytime I want, and it runs for the amount of minutes I calculate it needs to. There is a well pump relay in the basement. My plan was to match the well's recharge rate or close to it, and switch to a dedicated transformer to run that well pump controller and use the float in the tank as my shut off devise.

I installed unions on the cistern fill from the well and the cistern outlet to the jet pump that pressurizes the sprinkler mains so I can set my water meter inline with either and get actual gallons of draw for each zone and for each cistern fill cycle. I also have an isolation valve on the cistern fill and a tee so I can measure GPM into a bucket for 1 minute and measure it that way.

JUGHNE said:

IIWM, the first thing I would try is some form of flow control, on either pump. Then maybe a cycle timer to allow the well to recover.
I would assume a pump pressure control in the event of too much flow restriction and also a high pressure relief valve as a submersible can get the pressure up to blow fittings apart IIRC.


BTW, I don't let my lawn die, it just goes thru a natural cycle and still has to be mowed.


You might be starting to feel like someone who wants to tear out a perfectly built vapor/vacuum steam system and replace it with FAF heat pump and coming here for advice and stones are thrown at you.

But don't despair, water is a touchy subject across the country and it doesn't take much to poke the hornets nest.

Timco

Which uses more water...a golf course or an apartment complex spanning the entire golf course with 3 or 4 stories of units? Which is better for the environment? And what shall they do? Only play golf in sand traps? Ban golf? Require courses to desalinate enough water to put it all back?

ChrisJ said:

I'm just over here amazed golf courses use 300,000 gallons per day and that's ok because they paid for a piece of paper.

Timco

Correct, that was my frustration. I found many VFD drives and so on but just needed a 240v pump speed controller which I found at Grainger.

ratio said:

To use a VFD, you might need to switch to a 3 phase pump. I'm unaware of a commercially available VFD for a single phase motor.

ChrisJ

Timco said:

Which uses more water...a golf course or an apartment complex spanning the entire golf course with 3 or 4 stories of units? Which is better for the environment? And what shall they do? Only play golf in sand traps? Ban golf? Require courses to desalinate enough water to put it all back?

ChrisJ said:

I'm just over here amazed golf courses use 300,000 gallons per day and that's ok because they paid for a piece of paper.

You know,
I was kind of on your side.................

ratio

Why not add more storage & keep the 2 GPM from the pump? Spend longer refilling, but it sounds like you only water for a few hours.

Timco

Would this not work?

My plan was to perform a yield test at 4 gpm but as you pointed out, that does not take water level into account. Easy enough to make a splunker type gizmo. I was considering those fiberglass fish rods with a cork end as a float even.

I know it will pull 1000+ gallons straight at 2gpm. I have also read that you should have about 20' of water over the pump at a min. I will look into a LWCO, and there is a pressure relief. I am not sure what it trips at. Since this runs freely and unrestricted into the cistern, I am not too worried about pressure. The tank float kills the timed call for the well pump.

If I cannot control the pump speed, I will reinstall the 1/2hp pump instead of restricting the 3/4hp pump down that far.

I was also under the impression that there was more to a yield test than run it until it's dry.

See my post above for more details on what I have to watch amounts of water and so on. I am not guessing as so many have done, and have gone to great lengths to do things right and do them well. Thanks for all the input. I do appreciate it.

Jamie Hall said:

Setting aside any value considerations, @Timco , it is my honest evaluation, as a registered PE and licensed well driller, that you would be better served with the old, lower flow pump running most of, or all of, the day to provide the water which you want.

Like your supplier, I am not aware of any speed controls for 3/4 hp 240 volt pumps which are easily available. The problem is that they are all squirrel cage motors of one sort or another (unless it is three phase), and the speed of those is set by the frequency of the power (in North America, 60 hz) which is supplied to them and by the design of the motor (typically 2 pole -- 3500 rpm or 4 pole, 1750 rpm). Thus you need a variable frequency drive and, while they are available for small motors -- and, for that matter, for big ones -- they are not cheap, even for small ones.

Given the existing pump, then, the solution is as has been suggested: throttle it to 2 to 3 gpm -- no more (again that is not an ethical consideration, that is my professional judgement based on what you have told us about the well, given as a well driller). Put a low water shutoff in the well to protect the pump (I always installed one on the wells I did anyway) and a pressure relief valve on the piping at or very near the well, to protect the piping. If it were mine, I'd use a float switch on the cistern, as I suggested above, but you could, of course, adjust a timer or manually turn the pump on or off as needed.

I am dismayed, again writing solely as an engineer and well driller, at what you were told about a flow (capacity) test for your well. That's not your problem, of course! But it's also not a real pump test. Not even close -- although I used to see it done all the time. There really are two kinds of capacity tests -- for a residential or low flow irrigation well, such as yours, it's about as exciting as watching paint dry -- but requires only that the well be pumped at a steady flow for at least 12 hours, while plotting the depth of water in the well (electronic data loggers are a big help!). For bigger wells -- such as the ones I used to do for municipal supplies -- it requires 72 hours of constant flow and at least two additional monitoring wells (sometimes more), all of which are logged.

There is no reason why, if you were curious, you couldn't do a pretty decent job of a capacity test on your own, for your purposes. While electronic loggers are really nice, you can make a perfectly good water level sensor yourself -- all you need is a good tape measure (long enough!) and a "plunker" at the end -- which is a fancy name for a 1 inch socket fastened at the end. You'll miss the initial drawdown -- which is nice to know but not absolutely required (though you do need the static level pump off for at least 24 hours) -- but the procedure is simple enough: start the pump and adjust the flow to some reasonable flow (in this case, I'd again suggest 2 to 3 gpm, but something which you positively know you can run for 12 hours). Make sure you adjust the flow to hold that; it will want to change as the well draws down. Then, every hour, stop the pump briefly and quickly measure the depth to water (if you can hear the plunker or have access to an electric depth tape, which buzzes when you reach water, don't stop the pump) every half hour and plot the results as drawdown vs. time. With any kind of luck at all the curve will flatten out after a few hours, and then you can figure your drawdown vs. depth relationship. This works for most smaller wells, although in some cases the well is such that yield (expressed as gpm per foot of drawdown) can drop dramatically at greater drawdowns (it may not work for bigger wells -- there was one I did which didn't stabilize for a week... we were bored...).

Jamie Hall

I'm not at all sure that that voltage controller would work -- or it if did, if it would do so without damage to the pump's motor, since it appears to control or change voltage, not frequency. Pump motors are usually some form or other of capacitor start/induction run (assuming single phase here) and they really don't like to run at voltages much less then 90% of the nameplate -- and even then, they tend to overheat.

You could try it, but keep a close eye on the running and starting amperage. If either is even close to the motor's nameplate rating you will -- at best -- shorten its life (some motors may not be able to start at all on low voltage).

The pressure relief valve should be before any other valves on your piping system (except, of course, the pump's own check valve). Submersible pumps, depending on their design, can achieve amazingly high pressures if the piping is accidentally shut off!

The advice to keep the dynamic water level at least 20 feet above the pump is correct -- as I mentioned in another post above there somewhere, these things are water cooled and water lubricated, and they really don't react will to being run without adequate water. There is an exception to that required depth of submersion involving submersibles in big tanks or cisterns -- but that doesn't apply here.

hot_rod

I've used "wave choppers" (triac relays) on a bunch of different motors. A poor mans speed control. They are built into our solar controllers, but only 1A. I bought this one and can run my shop vac, which "claims" to be 5 hp!
But it needs a control to tell it what to do.
They do cause motors to pulse a bit on low speeds, and you may see that in your lights

Jamie Hall

Argh. Well, thinking about it, I guess where I'm coming from is that I really hate the thought of pulling a couple of hundred feet of drop pipe to get at an unhappy motor. I'd rather throttle the thing and live with that...

ChrisJ

A wave chopper will make the motor run hot and unhappy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but restricting the output on that pump should both make it run cooler, and pull less current, no?

Same as any centrifugal pump?

Timco

So, a simple circuit setter or BV inline that is restricted to my desired GPM is an alternative? I have never dealt with restricting pumps that size nor the effects of doing that on the piping. I can add a gauge to see what pressure it makes easy enough. And add a working relief. The relief on it now is in the well at the cleat that the pump hangs from. I hook it from that tee to pull it all out.

Jamie Hall said:

Argh. Well, thinking about it, I guess where I'm coming from is that I really hate the thought of pulling a couple of hundred feet of drop pipe to get at an unhappy motor. I'd rather throttle the thing and live with that...

ChrisJ said:

A wave chopper will make the motor run hot and unhappy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but restricting the output on that pump should both make it run cooler, and pull less current, no?

Same as any centrifugal pump?

hot_rod

ChrisJ said:

A wave chopper will make the motor run hot and unhappy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but restricting the output on that pump should both make it run cooler, and pull less current, no?

Same as any centrifugal pump?

Isn't it a submersible pump, in 50° water?

Yes current draw goes down, but load on motor shaft goes up. The pump manufacturer may have guidance on flow restriction, cavitation potential. It doesn't sound like much balance is needed.

IF you wanted a set flow rate a PIV would be an option.

But in this case it sounds like the ideal control would modify pump output, gpm, based on what the well can provide (level) at any point in time.

Level switches or timers are more like a bang/ bang approach Compared to a smoother variable control option, if possible.
I know Grundfos has a wide selection of variable speed submersibles.

Jamie Hall

I think --could be wrong -- that what @Timco is looking for is a relatively simple, reliable and inexpensive way to control the flow of the pump he has already down in the well to what the well can reliably produce. And a simple ball valve in the output line, adjusted to the desired flow, will do the job just fine. One would have to look at the pump curve to figure out what the change in power requirements would be; most submersibles are multi-stage turbines, and have pretty steep curves as compared to a single stage centrifugal. They are, however, very forgiving about being run anywhere on their curve -- even way down on the high flow end, which is where cavitation could be a problem (provided always they stay that 20 feet submerged...).

The Grundfos SQFlex pumps, which I think is what @hot_rod is referring to, are indeed nice pumps. Very nice pumps. So are Lamborghinis nice cars, but does @Timco really need that? We've given him a hard enough time already!

Timco

A BV it is lol. Thanks! I have the pump model on the box out in my shed and the curve on a different computer. It’s a Gould’s.

ChrisJ

hot_rod said:

ChrisJ said:

A wave chopper will make the motor run hot and unhappy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but restricting the output on that pump should both make it run cooler, and pull less current, no?

Same as any centrifugal pump?

Isn't it a submersible pump, in 50° water?

Yes current draw goes down, but load on motor shaft goes up. The pump manufacturer may have guidance on flow restriction, cavitation potential. It doesn't sound like much balance is needed.

IF you wanted a set flow rate a PIV would be an option.

But in this case it sounds like the ideal control would modify pump output, gpm, based on what the well can provide (level) at any point in time.

Level switches or timers are more like a bang/ bang approach Compared to a smoother variable control option, if possible.
I know Grundfos has a wide selection of variable speed submersibles.

@hot_rod
It's my understanding that when you restrict the output of a centrifugal pump the load drops and cavitation shouldn't be a concern. Restricting the input could easily cause cavitation but not sure how the output would?

How could the load on the motor shaft go up if power consumption drops? The motor speeds up, so torque on the shaft must drop. No?

That's my understanding on pool pumps etc but well pumps I have no experience with. I'm just applying what I understand of centrifugal pumps and may easily be missing something important.

Actually.........are submersible well pumps even centrifugal pumps?

Jamie Hall

Goulds are excellent pumps. Can't tell you how many I've dropped down holes over the years... I had one recently (well, a year ago) which finally had to be replaced... after almost 70 years of continuous service...

@ChrisJ -- submersibles are a flavour of centrifugal pump, but have anywhere from three or four stages to a dozen or more. So, inevitably, as I noted the pump flow vs. head curve is much much steeper than a single stage.

Charlie from wmass

Tip for monitoring water level.
1. Purchase quarter inch tube at least 300 feet long.
2. Install a tee with a Schrader valve and a pressure gauge. I usually use a hundred pound gauge because I have them readily available.
3. Install brass adapter and maybe a coupling to end of hose.
4. Lower hose to bottom of well.
5. Pressurize the tubing.
6. Note max pressure.
7. Run the heck out of the pump and note change in pressure. Also time how long until minimum pressure is reached.
8. Time how long it takes for max pressure to return with pump off.
9. Slowly raise tube and mark tube when pressure reaches 0 psi.

Timco

When it rains it pours. With that much restriction it pressurized the line from pump to cistern and causes lots of black debris to come loose from the line and clogs the filter. Geeez. It’s rust it seems even though it’s black. Then the tank doesn’t fill, then the jet pump runs dry. I’ll let that feed line run into a garden hose with no filter on it later to flush debris. This entire system has been neglected and not really taken care of for years.

hot_rod

Any smell to the water, well water can harbor various bacteria’s. Iron bacteria can be a nasty black sludge or debris.
Does the particle stick to a magnet?

Jamie Hall

Aren't you having fun! If you weren't using the water for irrigation, I'd suggest shocking the well -- a good big dose of sodium hypochlorite (figure the amount the same way you would a swimming pool, using the volume of water in the well casing) -- and then running it (not dry!!) until the chlorine smell goes away. Should be done anytime you run a pump in and out, anyway. But... not sure what that would do to the plants. No good, I expect. So I'm not sure what you would do with the water...

It's probably not the higher pressure that dislodged stuff from the lines; more likely the higher flow velocities (your throttling valve is near the well? Or near the tank? Not that it should make any difference.).

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

Aren't you having fun! If you weren't using the water for irrigation, I'd suggest shocking the well -- a good big dose of sodium hypochlorite (figure the amount the same way you would a swimming pool, using the volume of water in the well casing) -- and then running it (not dry!!) until the chlorine smell goes away. Should be done anytime you run a pump in and out, anyway. But... not sure what that would do to the plants. No good, I expect. So I'm not sure what you would do with the water...

It's probably not the higher pressure that dislodged stuff from the lines; more likely the higher flow velocities (your throttling valve is near the well? Or near the tank? Not that it should make any difference.).

If he's using the black plastic pipe I could see the pipe swelling and causing build up to fall off the walls.

Jamie Hall

Suppose so, @ChrisJ . Ugh...

hot_rod

when you choke down a valve you can develop an increase in velocity, that could be dislodging crud, downstream in the piping.

In some case excessive throttling can cause cavitation, seen in the example. Usually that is something you will hear, a crackling Rice Krispy sound.

While commonly used, a ball valve is not an ideal valve for adding a lot of restriction. Some suggest no more than 45% closed, as you are exposing the sharp edges of the ball to the fluid flow.

Isn't it always something. You just started out wanting a green lawn

Reminds me of the businesses opening in California where they spray your lawn green, during the crunchy "brown lawn" season.

Timco

No odor. Kind of magnetic. Not all sticks. If I crush the black stuff it’s orange. My filter body is now orange. Turns white with a little bleach.

The BV I glued in to get it cut back is just upstream of the filter right at the cistern. Some very large chunks that are too big to have fit through the screen on the pump. It’s the black plastic tubing so I’m sure there’s some expansion. The check valve over the pump was really built up when I swapped pumps. The water in the filter can be crystal clear then have a huge cloud of debris or a large rush of bigger flakes.

hot_rod said:

Any smell to the water, well water can harbor various bacteria’s. Iron bacteria can be a nasty black sludge or debris.
Does the particle stick to a magnet?