Well characteristics and well pumps

Timco

Oh, I can hear the BV from my garage. Now there are air in the filter.

hot_rod said:

when you choke down a valve you can develop an increase in velocity, that could be dislodging crud, downstream in the piping.

In some case excessive throttling can cause cavitation, seen in the example. Usually that is something you will hear, a crackling Rice Krispy sound.

While commonly used, a ball valve is not an ideal valve for adding a lot of restriction. Some suggest no more than 45% closed, as you are exposing the sharp edges of the ball to the fluid flow.

Isn't it always something. You just started out wanting a green lawn

Reminds me of the businesses opening in California where they spray your lawn green, during the crunchy "brown lawn" season.

Illinoisfarmer

I hate to wade into this thread (pun intended), but for once I actually have some experience in the area being discussed. We have wells on several different farms - some for a couple older tenant houses, etc, and a main one that we use for my house, filling sprayer tanks, washing equipment and such. I’d had a standard 1hp submersible pump here for about 12 years. The thing cycled constantly. The pressure tank and pump were properly sized, it was just a function of water usage. There was generally something going on somewhere that was consuming water. About 2 years ago I upgraded to a Grundfos SQE Constant pressure pump and controller. I spent some time learning about the systems before having it installed, and essentially, a constant 240v (single phase) is supplied to the pump, and a signal from the control box – based on the pressure transducer reading – is sent through the power line to the pump to vary the frequency and match the pump output to the actual water demand. At the pressure setting +7psi, the pump stops. At the pressure setting -7psi the pump restarts and adjust frequency to maintain as close as possible to the pressure setting. This works well (again with the puns!), here at the main farm – but I’m not sure it would be worth the complexity or expense for an irrigation system filling a cistern.
My recollection is that it is also possible to set a ‘maximum speed’ for the pump – if necessary to limit output for an under producing well (or oversized pump). That would obviously work for Timco’s application. Having said all that, if I were you, Timco, I’d find a way to adjust output - in the easiest possible manner. Frequency drive would do it, obviously, throttling valve would too. Ideally, I’d put in a pump that would output (at rated capacity) somewhat less than the capacity of the well – no throttling, no frequency control. Slow, steady and constant.
In any case, thanks for listening, and thanks for all that you all do – stay safe!

ChrisJ

Bigger tank and slower pump?

JUGHNE

Most farm steads around here have cased well with submersible pump hanging.
The high maintenance issue was replacing the bladder pressure tank every few years or the start components on the pump control box. Both of these would wear out from pump cycling.

Now the new installs and some replacements get a variable speed/capacity pump. The speed varies by pressure sensor as the flow varies. There is a very small bladder tank included at the control.

More money, but for the fact of not replacing a large bladder tank every few years and having steady pressure delivery it must be worth it.

JUGHNE

Just to put water usage in perspective for the nation;
My county in NE has 2400 sq miles. 530 of those miles are under irrigation. That is over 2000 wells producing 500-700 gallons per minute......when all running will use at least 1,000,000 per minute. This will happen in the dry times usually August.
This certainly pales the lawn watering.

Mostly corn for food, feed and ethanol fuel.
(BTW, the byproduct of the ethanol is fed to cattle)
And we thank you all for your purchases of 10%.

Jamie Hall

And most of your water, @JUGHNE , comes from the Ogallala aquifer. Unlike the situation in New England, that's recharged not from the local area but from the foothills of the Rocky Mountains, way over in central Colorado!

It does sound like a lot of water -- and it is -- but, you know, when you run the numbers on it it really isn't that different from lawn watering (works out to about 4,000 gallons per day per acre, if all of the irrigation is running at once).

Timco

Any thoughts on bleach in the well while it’s low and pull that into the line to clean it? I still get a lot of random flaking and it clogs my filter fast.

Jamie Hall

Bleach will work Pool sodium hypochlorite will to. But run the water to waste, if you can -- I don't think either one will be much help for the lawn.

Timco

Would 1:1000 really bother anything? I can easily dump that water where I dump the yard waste.

Jamie Hall said:

Bleach will work Pool sodium hypochlorite will to. But run the water to waste, if you can -- I don't think either one will be much help for the lawn.

hot_rod

Sounds like iron water, that's what I have. Brown or orange colored chunks in the piping, valves, filter cartridges. Really the only way to know is take a sample for analysis.

Since it is just irrigation, I think? you probably only need strainers or separators to keep the debris out of trouble. Often times pumping the well level way down causes turbidity, stirring of the water dislodging the ground. I think you mentioned it is not cased?

JUGHNE

Jamie, yes we are blessed with the biggest share of the Ogallala aquifer under our state. Only in the last maybe 40 years has regulation come into play. A good thing for the most part considering some use chemical herbicides introduced into the pivot irrigation system.

I could punch a 30-50' well in my yard and get a good supply.
Our muni wells might go down 200-300' to avoid nitrates which used to be a major problem for shallow wells.
If I wanted a good well it would be cased down to 100-120'
and the pump hung at maybe 60'.
When the pivots are running full tilt the static might drop 6' even though you are a mile away.

When one considers the importance of this aquifer for the entire Midwest, one understands the objection to the Keystone XL pipeline proposed to be buried thru it.
IIRC, this is not really oil but tar sands.
Initially it was to be about 5 miles west of me here, at that point the pipe would be constantly submerged as the water table might be 3-5' below the surface.
It was moved a fair distance east of this location and would not be in the water table at that new placement.

That has been a real political football for several years.
I am certain we do not need a discussion about it here.
I just wanted others to know of the significance of the aquifer.

hot_rod

90% of that water is for farming, which feeds most of us also.

ChrisJ

Sodium hypochlorite is all I use in our pool. Gallon bleach hugs.

GroundUp

I will admit that I was not interested in reading 60 new replies so I only made it far enough to see that you've got crud in your water now. I will reiterate as I said earlier, a simple $40 flow restrictor on the pump outlet will solve your problem. It will not hurt the pump, it will be silent, it will not overpressurize and flex your lines, and best of all it doesn't require any controls. They literally make restrictors exactly for this purpose. It's basically just an orifice drilled in a hunk of stainless steel with 1" NPT tappings on each end. Pull up the pump, add the restrictor, grease up the pitless, and live happily ever after.

Jamie Hall

"Flyover country", @JUGHNE -- and although where we are is the family farm in New England (been here for 150 year now), I spent time -- a good bit of it -- in that country, and I love it, and pretty much everything about it. Friday night football under the lights. Drive-ins after school. Line storms coming across the plains... I still have some good friends who farm or work in Nebraska (Sand hills region) and also down in the southeastern part of Missouri. Don't know any city folk, though...

Timco

Excellent post. Will read this more in depth today. Been a busy few days here...

Illinoisfarmer said:

I hate to wade into this thread (pun intended), but for once I actually have some experience in the area being discussed. We have wells on several different farms - some for a couple older tenant houses, etc, and a main one that we use for my house, filling sprayer tanks, washing equipment and such. I’d had a standard 1hp submersible pump here for about 12 years. The thing cycled constantly. The pressure tank and pump were properly sized, it was just a function of water usage. There was generally something going on somewhere that was consuming water. About 2 years ago I upgraded to a Grundfos SQE Constant pressure pump and controller. I spent some time learning about the systems before having it installed, and essentially, a constant 240v (single phase) is supplied to the pump, and a signal from the control box – based on the pressure transducer reading – is sent through the power line to the pump to vary the frequency and match the pump output to the actual water demand. At the pressure setting +7psi, the pump stops. At the pressure setting -7psi the pump restarts and adjust frequency to maintain as close as possible to the pressure setting. This works well (again with the puns!), here at the main farm – but I’m not sure it would be worth the complexity or expense for an irrigation system filling a cistern.
My recollection is that it is also possible to set a ‘maximum speed’ for the pump – if necessary to limit output for an under producing well (or oversized pump). That would obviously work for Timco’s application. Having said all that, if I were you, Timco, I’d find a way to adjust output - in the easiest possible manner. Frequency drive would do it, obviously, throttling valve would too. Ideally, I’d put in a pump that would output (at rated capacity) somewhat less than the capacity of the well – no throttling, no frequency control. Slow, steady and constant.
In any case, thanks for listening, and thanks for all that you all do – stay safe!

Timco

Correct. Irrigation only and casing is 30’ or 50’ I forget which. The drill report says.

I’m adding a parallel filter so I have twice the filter capacity. There’s or will be two clear bodied blow down type filters from well to cistern and a large string filter between cistern and jet pump / tanks.

If I shock the line from the well (close valve for 2 seconds and fully open) I get smaller and smaller rushes of orange and flakes. But this Am it was totally clogged closed at the filter. Damn.

hot_rod said:

Sounds like iron water, that's what I have. Brown or orange colored chunks in the piping, valves, filter cartridges. Really the only way to know is take a sample for analysis.

Since it is just irrigation, I think? you probably only need strainers or separators to keep the debris out of trouble. Often times pumping the well level way down causes turbidity, stirring of the water dislodging the ground. I think you mentioned it is not cased?

Timco

I’m completely on board. I’ll just have to throttle or install it at the cistern for now since I’ve used my helper credits all up. I’ve only been here a year and don’t know many people and have pulled this twice now and it’s not easy. First time just one helper. Nightmare.

GroundUp said:

I will admit that I was not interested in reading 60 new replies so I only made it far enough to see that you've got crud in your water now. I will reiterate as I said earlier, a simple $40 flow restrictor on the pump outlet will solve your problem. It will not hurt the pump, it will be silent, it will not overpressurize and flex your lines, and best of all it doesn't require any controls. They literally make restrictors exactly for this purpose. It's basically just an orifice drilled in a hunk of stainless steel with 1" NPT tappings on each end. Pull up the pump, add the restrictor, grease up the pitless, and live happily ever after.

hot_rod

The thought is the lower flow rate will prevent the well from allowing crud in to the pump and piping begin with? Also match the well output to the pumping flow rate? Did the first pump, lower gpm have any or all these problems? Or did they all start with the higher capacity pump installation.

If the problem with crud continues maybe a dirt separator instead of filters. A separator removes particles and drops them into a lower chamber, doesn't restrict flow like filters do. Filters trap the particles in the flow, as you know, and are expensive to replace. Seems you just need particle size removal down to what will pass thru the sprinkler head, not clear water.

If the pump and piping can handle the particle size, maybe the cistern tank could be the collection and separation device, once you get the flow rates dialed in.

Basically stop the crud from developing in the system in the well, or deal with it up top.

Is it possible to upsize the cistern so it has enough capacity for you sprinkler session, then let it refill at a slow enough gpm rate to avoid all the crud problems? Dump your gutters into it if possible, that is cheap water to harvest. The cost of an additional tank may offset the cost of the other fixes?

Timco

Just an update. I’ve been trying to calculate the flow restricter to settle on and the well did not recharge over last night for the very first time...which is common now I’m told by neighbors and well contractors. One guy says we can double the recharge or likely better if we frack and the fact that my domestic well is only 38’ away is not an issue. Another guy said that’s too close to the domestic well and may collapse the domestic well or dirty it for weeks. The frack guy said non issue..what I do know is even over night it never recharged even to half capacity because it ran dry after only about 100 gallons. As of late I’ve been getting a ton of iron and had to install 3 filters in parallel to not plug the fill every call for cistern fill.

ChrisJ

For some reason this thread reminds me of Green Acres Water, Water Everywhere.

Pretty soon we're going to hear about the High Handed code as amended in 1912.

Jamie Hall

Yeeeessss... fracking may increase the yield of the well. May not, too. However, if you domestic well is only 38 feet away, I wouldn't chance it -- unless your domestic well is also giving trouble.

What may, possibly, help however, is redeveloping the well. This is not fracking! Whether it can be done or not, or would be successful, is another question entirely, and depends a lot on how the well is constructed. Do you have construction details on the well? At the very least -- after you let it sit for a while (the lawn will recover!) the following: depth to static water. total depth of well. depth to the bottom of the casing, if possible, how the casing was installed (specifically drilled oversize and grouted, or just pounded down?); is there a screen or is it open hole below the casing? If there is a screen what type and size, and is there a gravel pack? What drilling method was used (cable tool, rotary, reverse rotary, air rotary)?

hot_rod

Maybe get opinions from local well drillers. They usually have the best info on what works in their area. How deep good water is, etc.
Not all drillers will jump on an old hole, it could be the same $$ just to drill new.
The latest pneumatic rotary rigs can put a well in one day around here, even if they hit rock!
Are you required to have separate wells for potable and irrigation?

Charlie from wmass

Please note early in my career well work was half of our business. We would  get many calls to deal with other people's repairs and fixes. Fracking can help but it can also cause issues hundreds of feet away from the original well. Waivers are often required incase they worsen the well instead of improve it. I restricted my action to the mechanical parts and left drilling, cleaning, or fracking to the well drillers. As with everything proceed with caution with people claiming big results or miracle cures. Jmho. 

Timco

Not required at all. The company coming to frack next week has done many in this area where we have high iron and was confident what to expect. Many others I called had the same opinion and all quoted the same expected results and likely an improvement on the domestic well. It is about 3x or just under that to drill 300’ not including connecting the pipes and getting power to it and pump cost. 

hot_rod said:

Maybe get opinions from local well drillers. They usually have the best info on what works in their area. How deep good water is, etc. Not all drillers will jump on an old hole, it could be the same $$ just to drill new. The latest pneumatic rotary rigs can put a well in one day around here, even if they hit rock! Are you required to have separate wells for potable and irrigation?