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Water pipe electrical question

ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 10,973
I'm planning on using a Ford copper meter setter with the water meter in my house.
According to the manufacturer this type of meter setter is "Permanent electrical bonding is provided without straps" And it makes sense being the inlet and outlet are a single assembly.

My question is does code generally acknowledge this or do I need to still bypass the assembly with clamps and wire? I'd rather leave them off as it'll look like a cleaner installation, but I also don't want the inspector failing me if I can avoid it.

Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment

Comments

  • ratioratio Member Posts: 2,428
    That'd be a call to the inspector to be certain, but if it's marked so by the mfgr, & there's obviously electrical continuity, I think I'd try it. With material to do the jumper on-hand, in case he's insistent.
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 10,973
    For anyone unfamiliar with what I'm talking about it looks like this :



    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,847
    I'd have passed it -- but I'm not your AHJ. Better talk to him or her.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
    ChrisJ
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,599
    I mean it says it's permanent electrical bonding without straps so I'd go for it. It'd be worth it just to hear the logic behind failing it.
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
    ChrisJCanuckermattmia2
  • ratioratio Member Posts: 2,428
    No logic, it's just his (or her) call to make. Like I said, around here inspectors are pretty reasonable, & while they all have their little idiosyncrasies & pet peeves to deal with, they know the trade. Sometimes, however, you get someone with less experience, who's going to make sure the t's are dotted and the i's are crossed, regardless of whether or not you're using those letters. They are, I believe, legally responsible for what they sign off, so I can understand (a little) why they're like that.

    In the end, it'd have to be pretty important (or expensive) for me to go to bat against an inspector.

    ChrisJEdTheHeaterMan
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,896
    edited June 11
    OTOH, I can see AHJ saying that "what if some one removes the yoke?"
    IIWM and I wanted only 1 visit from the inspector, I would jumper around it with long enough wire that if a standard meter was used as a replacement the bonding jumper would not have to be removed.

    (you could always ask if necessary and then remove later, regardless of the reply.)

    Being this CYA for over 40 years has let me have only 1 write up/reg tag in that time period.
    ChrisJmattmia2
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 10,973
    JUGHNE said:

    OTOH, I can see AHJ saying that "what if some one removes the yoke?"
    IIWM and I wanted only 1 visit from the inspector, I would jumper around it with long enough wire that if a standard meter was used as a replacement the bonding jumper would not have to be removed.

    (you could always ask if necessary and then remove later, regardless of the reply.)

    Being this CYA for over 40 years has let me have only 1 write up/reg tag in that time period.

    I'm confused. What's a standard meter? As far as I know, what I already have is a standard 7 1/2" long 5/8 style meter. This is simply to adapt it to a vertical pipe.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,896
    edited June 11
    Meters work in either configuration.
    Here for horizontal or vertical we just use meter spuds. They are straight and about 3" long with 3/4" MIP on one end and union nut on the other. Need the washer for the union end.
    The readout usually will rotate so you can read it without twisting your neck.

    Actually more compact than your yoke.

    For us, the water dept furnishes the meter and spuds.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 10,973
    > @JUGHNE said:
    > Meters work in either configuration.
    > Here for horizontal or vertical we just use meter spuds. They are straight and about 3" long with 3/4" MIP on one end and union nut on the other. Need the washer for the union end.
    > The readout usually will rotate so you can read it without twisting your neck.
    >
    > Actually more compact than your yoke.
    >
    > For us, the water dept furnishes the meter and spuds.

    Everything I've seen said meters need to be horizontal.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,896
    I will not mention that to my water company.
    Most new plumbing I have installed over the years (mine included) has been vertical for the compactness reason.

    We are changing over to new WIFI read meters and I am about to get mine changed. The meters from 30 or so years ago are failing. My last meter reading showed no usage and therefore the water bill was the minimum of $10.00....and has been for years.
    They would be done with the project but for the Covid issue of coming into houses.

    The office girl wishes it would get done for consistency of bookkeeping.
    She is the one who calls someone like the 1000 gal/day WC customer I posted about above.
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 10,973
    edited June 11
    > @JUGHNE said:
    > I will not mention that to my water company.
    > Most new plumbing I have installed over the years (mine included) has been vertical for the compactness reason.
    >
    > We are changing over to new WIFI read meters and I am about to get mine changed. The meters from 30 or so years ago are failing. My last meter reading showed no usage and therefore the water bill was the minimum of $10.00....and has been for years.
    > They would be done with the project but for the Covid issue of coming into houses.
    >
    > The office girl wishes it would get done for consistency of bookkeeping.
    > She is the one who calls someone like the 1000 gal/day WC customer I posted about above.


    Our water co supplies them as well. I just don't like the yoke that's here so I'm putting in a nice one.

    Holy cow.... So the meter manufacturer claims it's design is not effected by position! Then why the hell do they have it in this stupid yoke!

    Now the plot thickens. Do I even need to use the yoke or can I just go vertical. I know the meter allows it but I don't know that the water co doesn't have a policy.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 7,041
    edited June 11
    No inspector can justify not accepting that without a jumper. Maybe they won't like it but they will not be able to justify it or come up with a code rule that shows it as a violation. The meter can be removed and replaced without the bonding being lost.

    ChrisJethicalpaul
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158
    @ChrisJ If there are no gaskets at the threads, allowing for a continued path (or, no interruption) of copper. That meter setter should be fine.
    Have the manufacturers directions/literature ready for when the inspector comes.
    I sure would pass it.
    Be sure that meter setter fits, or goes with the meter you intend to use. Otherwise it might not fit.
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 10,973
    > @Intplm. said:
    > @ChrisJ If there are no gaskets at the threads, allowing for a continued path (or, no interruption) of copper. That meter setter should be fine.
    > Have the manufacturers directions/literature ready for when the inspector comes.
    > I sure would pass it.
    > Be sure that meter setter fits, or goes with the meter you intend to use. Otherwise it might not fit.

    Assuming I didn't mess up it should fit.
    What's got me now it's whether or not I could just mount it vertical and skip the turns in the piping.

    I assume because it's currently in a setter like that that the water co expects it horizontal but maybe that had to do with a previous meter type that had to be horizontal.

    The current one is very old and pretty nasty which is why I'm replacing it while I do the service line.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158
    Many water companies want meters mounted horizontally for ease of reading. Even in this day in age when remote readers are used. The turn in the pipe that you mention should not be an issue.

    And.

    Looking closer. I see now that the elbows that connect the vertical are connected at the outside turn of the "ell". Because of that, the meter setter should pass, and be code compliant.
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 10,973
    > @Intplm. said:
    > Many water companies want meters mounted horizontally for ease of reading. Even in this day in age when remote readers are used. The turn in the pipe that you mention should not be an issue.
    >
    > And.
    >
    > Looking closer. I see now that the elbows that connect the vertical are connected at the outside turn of the "ell". Because of that, the meter setter should pass, and be code compliant.

    I did a lot of looking and picked that one because there was a lot I liked about it.

    It sounds like I should use the setter regardless just because it's a cleaner install. Someone I respect a lot has told me repeatedly those setters have minimal pressure drop, I just can't help being me.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    SuperTech
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158
    You sir are you because , dare I guess, you don't like to do things again and again...over and over again.

    I'm the same way. I prefer to do some homework before i jump in.

    And that's correct. No noticeable to no pressure drop across that fitting.
    ChrisJ
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 10,973
    Intplm. said:

    You sir are you because , dare I guess, you don't like to do things again and again...over and over again.

    I'm the same way. I prefer to do some homework before i jump in.

    And that's correct. No noticeable to no pressure drop across that fitting.

    Yeah........
    I get to go back up into the attic tomorrow yet again to tweak my air handler mod because it's still not quite right. Yay for me. :/ The only good news is the bottom seemed warm rather than ice cold so I believe the insulation stayed dry for the first time. Maybe by it's 5th season I'll get the problems ironed out.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Intplm.
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,297
    I would vote for the jumper in case someone decides to undo the built in unions. You could orient the clamps with the terminal to the back so it hides the wire behind the pipe. I would also connect the grounding electrode system conductor before the meter.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 10,973
    > @mattmia2 said:
    > I would vote for the jumper in case someone decides to undo the built in unions. You could orient the clamps with the terminal to the back so it hides the wire behind the pipe. I would also connect the grounding electrode system conductor before the meter.

    What if someone decides to cut the copper pipe where it comes in?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 10,973
    It's a beaut Clark!
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • pecmsgpecmsg Member Posts: 1,421
    edited June 15
    ChrisJ said:

    > @mattmia2 said:

    > I would vote for the jumper in case someone decides to undo the built in unions. You could orient the clamps with the terminal to the back so it hides the wire behind the pipe. I would also connect the grounding electrode system conductor before the meter.



    What if someone decides to cut the copper pipe where it comes in?

    Nothings Perfect and at that point you've lost the ground!
  • mattmia2mattmia2 Member Posts: 1,297
    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    > @mattmia2 said:

    > I would vote for the jumper in case someone decides to undo the built in unions. You could orient the clamps with the terminal to the back so it hides the wire behind the pipe. I would also connect the grounding electrode system conductor before the meter.



    What if someone decides to cut the copper pipe where it comes in?

    Nothings Perfect and at that point you've lost the ground!
    And water would be gushing everywhere because it is before the first valve.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 10,973
    > @mattmia2 said:
    > (Quote)
    > And water would be gushing everywhere because it is before the first valve.

    There's the curb stop outside and it could easily not be before the first valve inside.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
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