Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

Circ pump doesn't receive power during call for heat (new install)

Shepherd
Shepherd Member Posts: 9
Hey everyone,
I used to be a general contractor, mostly did house renovations; I'm competent but lacking specific knowledge. I'm expanding my home system to have in-floor heat. The circ pump on my secondary system isn't receiving power during a call for heat.

My system:
[old install] System 2000 EK1 boiler: 5 zones - dhw, unit heater, radiant storage tank, 2 open zones. All of this works great.
[New install] 5 zone radiant heat managed by a Taco ZVC405-4 Zone Valve Control unit:
All 5 Zone valves are 2 wire type so terminals 3-4 are jumpered on all zone valve terminals as per instructions, working as intended
Taco 007-F5 Pump

My problem:
The pump does not turn on during a call
Voltage reads 120 across the pump end switch
Pump runs fine when hardwired
My assumption is that one of the things I don't understand is bitting me in the butt (explained below), or my ZVC405-4 is defective. I hope I just overlooked something.

Things that are probably bitting me in the butt:
I have everything wired as per the installation manual with 2 exceptions.
There is no wiring from the isolated end switch to the boiler aquastat because my set up doesn't want the boiler starting unless the rad tank drops in temp.
The wiring diagram says "Zone 5 pump end switch" COM should go to a dry contact. This is where my knowledge crumbles. I have a number of guesses but I feel better just asking what the heck this means.

Comments

  • Check for voltage at your secondary pump.

    If you have 120 volts at the pump, it may not be spinning in which case it will usually be very hot to the touch - be careful. Check the amp draw and see if it matches the pump specifications.

    There are times when the pump is working properly, but not moving water because there's air in the system.

    "Voltage reads 120 across the pump end switch". So, you have a black, hot lead on one terminal and a black wire to the pump on the other terminal?

    Often wrong, never in doubt.
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    edited March 2020
    The 405's not defective. You can jumper #3-4 on the 24V zone valves connections and the all the zone valves connect to the #1-2 connectors. Good.

    Since you don't want to turn on the boiler when there is a call for heat, ignore the XX connections on the Isolated End Switch. The Rad Tank will turn on the boiler. Good.

    You should have the Black110V power (live) wire go to one of the X connections on the Pump End Switch. The other X connection on the Pump End Switch should go the the pump (with another Black wire). The pump's other wire (White) should go to the grounded conductor (Neutral) (White 110V wire). Do it this way! Note: Turn Zone 5 Priority Switch to the off position.

    If you are connecting the pump to the Zone 5 Pump End Switch instead of the Pump End Switch, it should be connected between the NO and Com connections with the Zone 5 Priority Switch in the off position. Then wire it like the DHW pump.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,879
    How are you measuring voltage?
    Hot and Neutral or Hot and Ground?
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    edited March 2020
    The voltage would be the same as the grounded conductor and the grounding conductor meet at the Service Entrance Panel. The only time it would be different is if either one of those conductors were open.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,879
    BACK FEED
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    edited March 2020
    "..."Zone 5 pump end switch" COM should go to a dry contact. This is where my knowledge crumbles. I have a number of guesses but I feel better just asking what the heck this means."

    This is what it means: This is a Single Pole/Double Throw Relay. Going to a dry contact is necessary if you are using the DHW or secondary pump and want to control them. The dry contact would be the Pump End Switch.

    The NO and COM connections is the same configurations as the XX connections on the Pump End Switch (a Single Throw/Single Pole Relay).

    You could just as well connect the 110V power to the COM and the pump to the NO connection with the pump white wire going to the white 110V connection. Making sure the Priority Switch is off position.

    Use the Pump End Switch XX connections. It's easier.
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    pecmsg--Please explain "back feed". I have back fed breakers and labeled them. I'm curious. There are instances of the grounding conductor carrying current such as in a 220V laundry circuit.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 2,879
    With a meter when measuring to ground you get ghost or back feed readings thru control circuits.

    Checking power to ground is only to insure the circuit is dead not for troubleshooting.
    STEVEusaPA
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    I can see that. Thanks!
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,904
    Ah... @HomerJSmith , if my memory hasn't failed completely, if your grounding wire is carrying current other than a few tenths of an amp at most, you have a problem... the neutral can carry a lot of current -- on 110, the full load. But the ground?
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,328
    "120 across the switch" is an open switch....
    If all zones are radiant, I would suggest using the Pump "XX" and make sure the domestic priority dipswitch is off.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,562
    edited March 2020
    Jamie Hall--Old wiring of 220V circuits to ranges and cloth dryers would let the grounding conductor carry the return current from 110V controls and such. The ground can carry as much current as the wire rating. But, I have dikes that have the cutting edge blown out in a ground fault, vaporizing the dike and melting the copper wire. Ya! I know what you're thinking. Of course, I always lick my fingers before I work on live circuits.
    Zman
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 18,904
    I think I have a pair of dikes like that around here somewhere... that's one of those either you have, or you are going to things.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • szwedj
    szwedj Member Posts: 45
    @shepherd Did you get this figured out?
    Joe Szwed
    Energy Kinetics
  • Shepherd
    Shepherd Member Posts: 9
    edited April 2020
    Sorry its taken so long. Things have been a bit crazy. I have not solved the problem
    Here are pictures (it didnt let me upload them earlier)







    p.s. I only recently learned that steel on copper mounting isnt the best idea, please disreguard that as I will fix it. Other comments welcome, I'm sure I can improve this set up in many ways I havn't learned yet.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,590
    Why didn't you just get the Energy Manager to handle additional zones?
    You've wasted some features by not using it.
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 3,985
    You are not piped right on your mix valve. You cant pump into that valve.... you will get little or no flow.
    Shepherd
  • ch4man
    ch4man Member Posts: 261
    well your wiring appears to consist of scraps of misc wires, old extension cords, nothing shown of the wiring is "right" or safe.
    and as kcopp pointed out the piping not going to work for the mixing valve, so.......
    i can only recommend hiring a boiler guy to straighten things out.
    dont get me wrong i appreciate a do it yourself get things done attitude but your already in deep. because of the electrical issues being potential hazardous, as they say on Shark Tank, "i'm out"
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,328
    Where are all the t-stat wires?
    Do the zones lights come on when there is a call?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 1,792
    I'm pretty sure that with an Energy Kinetics boiler you have to have the circulator pumps and zone valves controlled by the Energy Manager. EK probably would not approve of your current set-up. Why did you decide to go against the installation manual?
  • Shepherd
    Shepherd Member Posts: 9
    edited April 2020
    I have power up to the end switch, but not after. That is my problem.
    The issue seems to be, as far as I can tell, that the pump end switch is not closing during a call for heat.

    If I bypass the switch, the pump turns on. When wired properly, the pump does not turn on during a call for heat.






    In response to several questions an comments on the nasty wiring and that I should hire someone:

    I installed the boiler and its components as per installation manual years ago.



    Several years later, I am now installing a buffer tank and radient system. This has all seemed quite simple until this issue. The issue at hand is that the pump end switch is not closing during a call for heat. I fear that my control unit has a defect, but achknowlege that I may have screwed up somewhere.

    I have to redo the breaker box and most of the electrical systems in this house. The cobbled togeather stuff you see is strictly temporary, as the utility room has a very overloaded circuit and the breakers are no longer manucactured from the 40s. So I piped it from another room until summer when I will put in proper hardline.

    The few perminant wires you see are an incomplete system that has been completely opened so I can test the voltage anywhere as I troubleshoot. Some wires are in place for zones that are not piped yet. In some cases, proper perminant lines will be aded when funds become available.

    I inherrited a bit of a scrap yard with a giant fire hazard they call a house and I'm a grad student right now. Please undersand that I make very little money and I am installing my own system as to my buget and working around terrible restrictions. I unerstand your concern and as a professional in another feild I KNOW that you want to help an tell me all the things I am doing wrong but PLEASE do not tell me to hire anyone. I cannot afford a professional or else I would have done so long ago. Alaskan winters are harsh, I installed a boiler because my disability makes it hard to chop wood anymore. I'm doing what I can to keep my family warm.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,328
    edited April 2020
    SuperTech said:

    I'm pretty sure that with an Energy Kinetics boiler you have to have the circulator pumps and zone valves controlled by the Energy Manager. EK probably would not approve of your current set-up. Why did you decide to go against the installation manual?

    It is interesting that time was taken to call this post "off topic" but not answer this question or the one above...
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Shepherd
    Shepherd Member Posts: 9
    I have power up to the end switch, but not after. That is my problem.
    The issue seems to be, as far as I can tell, that the pump end switch is not closing during a call for heat.

    Responses to questions:
    HVACNUT said:

    Why didn't you just get the Energy Manager to handle additional zones?

    You've wasted some features by not using it.

    I had to add 5 zones and I have plans for the two remaining slots on the manager.
    kcopp said:

    You are not piped right on your mix valve. You cant pump into that valve.... you will get little or no flow.

    Please explain. Im a novice. Is it the wrong size mix valve or i I hook it up improperly? I just asked a local plumbing specialty supply store and they supplied this valve.
    ch4man said:

    well your wiring appears to consist of scraps of misc wires, old extension cords, nothing shown of the wiring is "right" or safe.
    and as kcopp pointed out the piping not going to work for the mixing valve, so.......
    i can only recommend hiring a boiler guy to straighten things out.
    dont get me wrong i appreciate a do it yourself get things done attitude but your already in deep. because of the electrical issues being potential hazardous, as they say on Shark Tank, "i'm out"

    This is temporary wiring as it will have to be redone this summer. This house is ue for a full electrical remodel. Inorer to not overload the circuit I had to pipe power from another room. The fuses here are from the 40s and are no longer produced. I have to redo everything out to the pole. The boxes are open because I was troubleshooting the "no power to pump" problem.

    I'm a grad student who inherrited my grandfather's house. I spent everything on school. I cannot afford a professional. The power supply here is a hack job to get us through the harsh Alaskan winter.
    Zman said:

    Where are all the t-stat wires?
    Do the zones lights come on when there is a call?


    They are not all installed. The unit heater is keeping the house "warm" while I install the in-floor heat. I am testing the electrical system as I install, thus I found the pump issue.
    SuperTech said:

    I'm pretty sure that with an Energy Kinetics boiler you have to have the circulator pumps and zone valves controlled by the Energy Manager. EK probably would not approve of your current set-up. Why did you decide to go against the installation manual?

    The EK manger controls its own set and is in full use. This is a secondary manager which only controls the in-floor heat.
  • Shepherd
    Shepherd Member Posts: 9
    edited April 2020
    I am having technical difficulties and I will respond when I can. The forum keeps deleating my replies and sending me "DiscussionID mismatch"
  • Shepherd
    Shepherd Member Posts: 9
    edited April 2020

    Check for voltage at your secondary pump.

    If you have 120 volts at the pump, it may not be spinning in which case it will usually be very hot to the touch - be careful. Check the amp draw and see if it matches the pump specifications.

    There are times when the pump is working properly, but not moving water because there's air in the system.

    "Voltage reads 120 across the pump end switch". So, you have a black, hot lead on one terminal and a black wire to the pump on the other terminal?

    120v gets to the end switch, but the switch does not close during a call for heat. If I bypass th switch, the pump runs as per normal.

    The 405's not defective. You can jumper #3-4 on the 24V zone valves connections and the all the zone valves connect to the #1-2 connectors. Good.

    Since you don't want to turn on the boiler when there is a call for heat, ignore the XX connections on the Isolated End Switch. The Rad Tank will turn on the boiler. Good.

    You should have the Black110V power (live) wire go to one of the X connections on the Pump End Switch. The other X connection on the Pump End Switch should go the the pump (with another Black wire). The pump's other wire (White) should go to the grounded conductor (Neutral) (White 110V wire). Do it this way! Note: Turn Zone 5 Priority Switch to the off position.

    If you are connecting the pump to the Zone 5 Pump End Switch instead of the Pump End Switch, it should be connected between the NO and Com connections with the Zone 5 Priority Switch in the off position. Then wire it like the DHW pump.

    It is wired to the XX and the zones are jumpered. That was already done. End switch still doesnt close on hall for heat.

    HVACNUT said:

    Why didn't you just get the Energy Manager to handle additional zones?

    You've wasted some features by not using it.

    When the energy manager gets a call for heat it turns on the boiler. By running a secondary manager that only uses the second pump, the boiler will only turn on when the buffer tank needs it. Aditionally I am running more zones than the original manager has available. This set up was recommended by my EK distributor for the system I designed.
    SuperTech said:

    I'm pretty sure that with an Energy Kinetics boiler you have to have the circulator pumps and zone valves controlled by the Energy Manager. EK probably would not approve of your current set-up. Why did you decide to go against the installation manual?

    The EK manager manages everything that comes off the boiler. The seconary manager is for the secondary system, off a buffer tank, as reccomeended by my EK distributor.
    Zman said:

    SuperTech said:

    I'm pretty sure that with an Energy Kinetics boiler you have to have the circulator pumps and zone valves controlled by the Energy Manager. EK probably would not approve of your current set-up. Why did you decide to go against the installation manual?

    It is interesting that time was taken to call this post "off topic" but not answer this question or the one above...
    I meant to hit the "quote" button. This was my mistake.
    ch4man said:

    well your wiring appears to consist of scraps of misc wires, old extension cords, nothing shown of the wiring is "right" or safe.
    and as kcopp pointed out the piping not going to work for the mixing valve, so.......
    i can only recommend hiring a boiler guy to straighten things out.
    dont get me wrong i appreciate a do it yourself get things done attitude but your already in deep. because of the electrical issues being potential hazardous, as they say on Shark Tank, "i'm out"

    The house I am working on has to have its electric redone including the fuse box. I had to pipe in power from another room to not overload the circuit. As I run various equipment to renovate this pos house I will need to move loads between circuits, thus the modular hackjob. The fuses are from the 50s and no longer produced. This summer I tear out everything and do it right. I patched stuff togeather because I cant afford to do it twice and Alaskan winters didnt give me much choice. A casualty of circumstance, not at all my perminant build.
    As it is, everything is wirecaped, in boxes with covers, and the covers are labled. It will be reone in 12/2 romex and with proper mainenence switches once I'm gone gutting everything.
    Zman said:

    Where are all the t-stat wires?
    Do the zones lights come on when there is a call?

    They are not installed yet. zones 1 and 2 call properly an the lights illuminate. I cant even put in the pipe for the other zones until I repair a main beam and move 3 generations of keepsakes into storage (inherited houses are like that). I am making sure the system works at all on the hooked up zones.
    pecmsg said:

    How are you measuring voltage?
    Hot and Neutral or Hot and Ground?

    Hot-Neutral 120v. Neutral-Ground 0.09v. About as expected.
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 1,862
    Shepherd said:

    I am having technical difficulties and I will respond when I can. The forum keeps deleating my replies and sending me "DiscussionID mismatch"

    @Shepherd, sorry about that. A bunch of your posts got held in spam last night. This sometimes happens when there's a series of posts from the same user within a very short period of time. I've sorted it out, but please contact me if you experience any more issues with the site. Thank you!
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
    Shepherd
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,590
    You've got a nice heating system. Don't hack it.
    You need the EK Extended Manager. 10 or 15 zones.
    Get rid of the Taco zone board.
    Shepherd
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,328
    I am not sure which componants do what on the controller. Have you checked the 2 fuses on the top left?
    If the 2 cube relays above the terminal you are having trouble with are removable, you might try swapping them. This sounds like a defective controller.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Shepherd
    Shepherd Member Posts: 9
    HVACNUT said:


    You need the EK Extended Manager. 10 or 15 zones.

    Get rid of the Taco zone board.

    I'll contact my EK distributor and inquire if the extened manager is a good option for my system. If I can rig it to turn on only the secondary pump off the buffer tank when the in-floor heat zones kick on, then heck yeah I'll drop this frustrating Taco control unit. My EK manager has never given me any issues and I love it.
  • Shepherd
    Shepherd Member Posts: 9
    I verified using a meter that:
    1. Using end switch 1, the circuit does not have power after the switch, regardless of call for heat
    2. Using end switch 2, the circuit has power after the switch, regardless of call for heat
    3. If I wire cap the leads (bypassing the switch), then the pump gets 120v

    There seems to be a problem with my control unit. I'll contact Taco on Monday and depending on the outcome of that I have 3 good options:
    1. Buy a new control
    2. Contact EK to see if the extened manager would work (I remember that it wont control the radiant pump without turning on the boiler and the main circ pump, but worth a look)
    3. Taco tech has another solution


    In any case, rest assured that the wiring will look much better after the remodel, this is a temp until I give it a dedicated fuse and hardline it in. I intend to make the best of my investment long term. Any issus with pipes not looking good on the other hand is reflective of my skill, or lack thereof. Thank you all for your input. I'll upate as things develope.
  • Shepherd
    Shepherd Member Posts: 9
    edited April 2020
    Some quick clean up:
    pecmsg said:

    BACK FEED

    Please explain. If you have insight that I have overlooked, I want to understand.
    kcopp said:

    You are not piped right on your mix valve. You cant pump into that valve.... you will get little or no flow.

    Please tell me more. In what way is the piping incorrect? This is why I invited comment. I genuinely want to correct errors and you seem to have caught one.
    Upon review, I suspect there is a problem with the buffer tank return line and the radiant supply line sharing a portion of pipe. If this is an issue please tell me. This system is my first build; if there is a problem with the pipe beyond ugly solder and slight crookedness I likely dont know it.