Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.

If you've found help here, check back in to let us know how everything worked out.
It's a great way to thank those who helped you.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.

Long Over Due

Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158
Is it finally time? Finally time to make a national building/plumbing code change to touchless technoledgy in our public bathrooms.
Properly functioning public restrooms that truly work!? Hands free that allow use all to not feel as if we need to use our elbows to function and do our due diligence in the rest room. And use antimicrobial fixtures to help stem the tide of this and other unforeseen bugs that may surely come our way.
With this new virus, CORVIN-19. I feel it is long over due.
Oh! And while we are at it. Lets make women's public bathrooms twice the size of mens to allow for better crowd control.

Comments

  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,846
    Sounds like a plan. For that matter, I wonder how many other changes which are long overdue could be facilitated?
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • Larry WeingartenLarry Weingarten Member Posts: 1,798
    Hi @Intplm. , Not to rain on your parade, but one thing that's been discovered about "touchless" fixtures is they do a far better job of growing legionella than old fashioned ones. It seems to do with more crevices for bugs to hang out along with more rubber or plastic for them to live on. But, I think making women's restrooms bigger is really smart! o:)

    Yours, Larry
    CLamb
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158
    My biggest concern is the after math of rejections to the changes. This is a world wide health event. There have been many others, but this one has got to be the tipping point to start us on the public health choice changes so desperately needed.
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158
    @Larry Weingarten No rain hear Larry. I sure do get your point.
    Its long over due that this type of technology is implemented.
    (Im speaking mostly to public restrooms) Your point of legionella is not to be forgotten.
  • Larry WeingartenLarry Weingarten Member Posts: 1,798
    Absolutely agree! There is a LOT than can be changed to make things healthier and safer, but the driver to date has been money. Perhaps covid 19 is teaching humanity something important. As an example, I'm helping take care of a 91 year old lady now on hospice. The nurses that come by have arrived (throwing up) sick, want to shake hands when they arrive, and often don't take precautions against sharing bugs. And this is with trained medical people. We have a lot of learning to do, and quickly!

    Yours, Larry
    Intplm.
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158
    Wow. I come from a medical family. They are mostly retired or have passed away. They would be very upset to read what you are going through.
    Hospice. Great organization. I hope they can help things progress smoothly. With the kindness and dignity I have seen them practice.
    My hat is off to you.
    Larry Weingarten
  • ratioratio Member Posts: 2,428
    My experience with touchless fixtures is that to get the water to flow you have to be running your hands on the bottom of the fixture or the back of the sink to get in the right position for the sensor to see you.

    And don't get me started on those 'air blades' where you have to reach your hands into a cesspool & slowly pull your hands out to dry them. <shudder>

    The good news is that those are implementation flaws & not conceptual flaws, so I have hope that they'll be corrected. At least, as long as legislation doesn't require them.

  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158
    @ratio you are spot on. Air dryers!? Lousy. Motion sensor faucets!? Horrible!
    The toilets work when adjusted properly. Ive set up many in my day. But the faucets are not worth the trouble. They dont last. People who do the cleaning scrub the sensor lens to the point that the lens cannot read motion. Plus. they get set up so the stream lasts to short of a time so you have to continue moving your hands in front of the motion sensor to get the thing to work. The customer insists on a short run time to save water and money, only to have to change the solenoid prematurely negating the cost savings. Its like doing invisible origami in front of the sink.
    Which brings me to the paper dispensers that use motion. To little comes out cause it has been set up that way. This shortens the life of the dispenser because people cannot get enough paper on the first "hello". So they tend to wave a lot.
  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Member Posts: 4,134
    One thing I wished would change...If you are getting rid of all paper towels, why can't the door swing out so the last thing I don't have to do is grab the door handle to open it, or wait until someone walks in to slip out? I just dried my hands, am I supposed to go into a stall to grab some TP to then open the door.

    On one of my trips to Italy, the one thing the guides always like to point out is the many ways (different styles) that toilets are flushed.
    In one bathroom, they had a sink with foot pedals, which was surgeon great, but to dry your hands they had the old fashioned loop of a towel that you are supposed to pull down and dry your hands. Now I guess technically the part that loops back into the housing is supposed to get magically sanitized, but it didn't look like it to me.
    I think it's time for the TOTO toilet (or bidets) to make some serious in-roads into the US market.

    On an interesting note, talking to my buddy (contractor in Philly), people are now going into the porta-potties on job sites and stealing all the TP.
    steve
    Intplm.CLambZman
  • IllinoisfarmerIllinoisfarmer Member Posts: 3
    I couldn’t agree more about the functionality of the touchless faucets. I’m not in the trades, but it appears to me that the touchless flush valves work fairly dependably. My take on that was that a flush takes X amount of water. It either works or it doesn’t. There’s no way to skimp or cut back without replacing the fixture. The touchless sink valves are a whole different animal though. A national retailer where I often shop (not to name names, but it rhymes with ‘smallfart’), has these locally. I usually end up waving frantically to get about 3 seconds of water. Then soap. Then repeat. Maybe a couple ounces of water each time. It has bothered me for years. I suspect that these are installed not to be cleaner or touchless, but in an effort to save money on water. My family has listened to me complain – and threaten to take a measuring cup into the restroom with me to prove my point. Fortunately, they have convinced me that a grumpy middle aged farmer wandering into a store restroom with a measuring cup is probably going to lead to some uncomfortable questions for everyone. Seriously, and again, I’m not versed in these things, but it seems like a code requirement for a minimum flow time and/or amount would be reasonable.
    Thanks for all that you all do!
    CanuckerGrallertShane_2
  • CanuckerCanucker Member Posts: 611
    @Illinoisfarmer the picture of some old guy wandering around with a measuring cup near the washrooms of a store cracked me up. Haha
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
    rick in Alaska
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158
    @STEVEusaPA The door handle thing is an excellent point. I am starting to see new designs with public restrooms. They are excluding the doors. Building the bath with blind type barriers.
    Airports, and some large chain stores are doing that now. But smaller places will be a much bigger challenge. There are antimicrobial handles available but they are not a best option.
    And I cant stand touching the door handle either simply because others do not , or cannot practice the best of washing habits.
    Has anyone been able to find the clean pull point on the door to exit the rest room???

    @Illinoisfarmer Waving at a faucet and paper towel dispenser for such little return has got to stop. And I like your description of bringing a cup along. So what if it makes some uncomfortable. Maybe thats just what is needed.
    I for one am getting to old to practice some sort of extra acrobatics to do what I must when I go to the can.


    I surely do not want to get sick, and I dont want to get anyone sick.
    PS..I like farmers. Have worked with many.
  • KC_JonesKC_Jones Member Posts: 4,410
    https://www.amazon.com/Purleve-Hygienic-Installation-Hardware-separately/dp/B01IRX5D9E

    When my employer did a remodel of one of our bathrooms they installed one of these. We call it the condom handle for obvious reasons.

    Other than the bathroom doors, my employer currently has all interior doors propped open so people don't have to touch them. I think there is a fire code violation in there, but my understanding is during this situation they are allowed.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10202744301871904.1073741828.1330391881&type=1&l=c34ad6ee78
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158

    There's always this "high tech" option. :D (Seen in NYC's Penn Station)


    This is so very telling. And it truly made me laugh out loud.
    @Erin Holohan Haskell Thanks for sharing.
    And may I ask? Is this a picture that you have taken? :)
  • Erin Holohan HaskellErin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 1,306
    @Intplm., glad you got a laugh out of it. And yes, I took this photo a couple of years ago.
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
    Intplm.
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 3,350
    edited March 20
    We've come a little ways.
    Remember the wet rotating rag contraption? Ewww!
    Kind of makes me want to drive down to Stucky's for a Pecan Log and some flat Mr. Pib.
    Intplm.
  • ratioratio Member Posts: 2,428
    The rotating rag was actually a long roll that unwrapped from one spool to another inside, & actually got changed once you hit the end. At least, the ones I've seen were. I actually liked them a lot better than the Dyson, even as modified above.
    Intplm.CLambChrisJ
  • rick in Alaskarick in Alaska Member Posts: 1,082
    The plumbing code here specified that the automatic bathroom faucets are supposed to run for 10 seconds after activated. I guess if you find a place that is only running for just a few seconds to save water, you could call the plumbing inspector or the health inspector to check it out.
    Also, I saw a picture somewhere just recently that showed a bathroom door the had to handles on it. One said "for people who washed their hands", and the other said, "for people who don't". I loved it!
    Being a cancer survivor, I know about the importance of washing hands. It amazes me the amount of people who don't wash in a public bathroom, and the ones who do who will turn the water on for like 2 seconds, get their hands wet, and then leave. Whats the point?
    Rick
    EdTheHeaterMan
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,895
    The double spool towel was very common out here. Expensive to maintain as the the used roll went away to be laundered.

    But when it run out there was a well used tail about 6' long hanging out.
    But even about 15 years ago there was a tag saying "do not dry hands on the dirty end of the towel".

    The nasty ones I remember as a kid (50-60 years ago) was usually in a gas station,
    it was a 10' continuous loop around a single roller.
    The theory was that it would air dry and be ready for reuse.
    But not washed very often and eventually look pretty bad.

    Often there was a tin cup sitting on the lav to get a drink, cold water always tasted better out of a tin cup. ;)
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 13,312
    The single tap automatic faucets are a bit tricky to get the accurate hot temperature supplied. Depending on where the mixing valve is located, it can take 10 seconds or more to get the valve to respond and accurately mix.
    Most often we end up with a cold wash on a 5 second faucet, unless you trigger it a half dozen times.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • DavidinKenaiDavidinKenai Member Posts: 7
    Good point about disparate wait times for men's and women's bathrooms. I was working on design of a small museum and the architect had called out one of each, so, therefore, they each had to be handicap accessible. I pointed out that if they were each multi-gender 1) some space could be saved on the second, non-handicap one, 2) for events that drew more of one gender than the other or just, say, two women queueing up, wait times would be reduced and 3) (it was in the most progressive town in the state), it avoids all issues with policies and signage around use by trans and non-binary folks.
    CLamb
  • DavidinKenaiDavidinKenai Member Posts: 7
    Continuing on about men's/women's bathrooms: Traditionally they've gotten equal areas but that means the women's has fewer fixtures (urinals take up less space than toilet stalls) so the first step is to have equal numbers of fixtures in each. The next step is to aim for equal waiting times, because women take longer to do their business than men, on average, and more of them wash their hands afterwards, so somewhat more fixtures are needed for similar wait times.
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158

    Continuing on about men's/women's bathrooms: Traditionally they've gotten equal areas but that means the women's has fewer fixtures (urinals take up less space than toilet stalls) so the first step is to have equal numbers of fixtures in each. The next step is to aim for equal waiting times, because women take longer to do their business than men, on average, and more of them wash their hands afterwards, so somewhat more fixtures are needed for similar wait times.

    I agree with the more fixtures needed for reduced wait times in public rest rooms. The urinal space is very interesting as to how it is measured or counted as a bath fixture according to some codes. Its equal to .67% of a toilet? (I don't have the code book handy) but if memory serves? That's a odd number. And this number is attributed to capacity of occupancy, or so many fixtures per person per dwelling.
    This requirement as well as many more discussed here needs to change for the better.

    I believe that the motion sensor faucets, motion sensor paper towel dispensers and motion sensor soap dispensers, when adjusted "on the cheap" actually contributes to unsanitary conditions.

    If I go to a restaurant, and go to the rest room to wash up before ordering and find the bathroom dirty and, or not working properly. I leave.
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 3,350
    What happened to the mens room pee trough? The oval basin?

    I think I just had a breakthrough.
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158
    HVACNUT said:

    What happened to the mens room pee trough? The oval basin?



    I think I just had a breakthrough.

    It was discontinued due to updated and improved health requirements.
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 3,350
    > @Intplm. said:
    > (Quote)
    > It was discontinued due to updated and improved health requirements.

    Ya think? Physical and mental.
    CanuckerIntplm.
  • retiredguyretiredguy Member Posts: 220
    Wow, you people (you notice I didn't say guys) can come up with some strange discussions and most of you really are older than I imagined. @HVACNUT you really remember Stucky"s and the nut rolls, the pee trough and the oval basin. @JUGHUE the 10' continuous towel around the single roller, and the rest of you for referencing the double roll cloth towels. (1 in and 1 out). This reminds me of my time in the Navy on the LST 758 Duval County where the men's room was just 1 room with no stalls for anything. All toilets, sinks, and showers were all open in that room. And when you ran out of fresh water, they switched to fresh ocean salt water. We really have come a long way
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158
    @retiredguy remember the built into the wall, and into the floor urinals?
    In grammar school, I remember kids playing and jumping in and out of them. That was way back in the 1960's.

    Makes me wonder how we all stayed healthy back then. Or did we?
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Member Posts: 3,350
    > @retiredguy said:
    > Wow, you people (you notice I didn't say guys) can come up with some strange discussions and most of you really are older than I imagined. @HVACNUT you really remember Stucky"s and the nut rolls, the pee trough and the oval basin. @JUGHUE the 10' continuous towel around the single roller, and the rest of you for referencing the double roll cloth towels. (1 in and 1 out). This reminds me of my time in the Navy on the LST 758 Duval County where the men's room was just 1 room with no stalls for anything. All toilets, sinks, and showers were all open in that room. And when you ran out of fresh water, they switched to fresh ocean salt water. We really have come a long way

    I spent a few pre teen summers in the suicide seat of the station wagon driving from Long Island to Florida. Disney, and relatives in Cocoa Beach. 6 people and a dog. Sears luggage bubble. Awesome faux wood paneling on the Pea Soup Green Ford. I forgot what model.
    Always stayed at the Days Inn with "broken" pool.
    Mom knew how to stretch a buck.
  • ratioratio Member Posts: 2,428
    One wonders if the inoculations received from playing in unsanitary 'dirt' weren't perhaps important after all…
    rick in AlaskaAlan (California Radiant) ForbeskcoppGrallert
  • DavidinKenaiDavidinKenai Member Posts: 7
    "What happened to the mens room pee trough?"

    If no one is shy, does the trough serve more people in less floor space? Far better than toilet stalls, but compared to urinals with privacy panels? For someone unsteady on their feet (old or feeble or drunk), those privacy panels provide a bit of support unavailable with the pee trough.

    One application in which the pee trough really shines (and not just because it's stainless steel) is on a boat. I was crossing the Irish Sea on a ferry in a storm. Multiple people could hurl at once into the trough and it was a big, easy-to-hit target compared to toilets or urinals.
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Member Posts: 4,134
    In Philly at the old JFK stadium there was a circular pee trough. Not for the shy.
    steve
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,846
    Oh yeah. The somewhat dubious cloth towel rolls... the usually badly rusted trough... it is a wonder we all survived, but clearly we did.

    And I do think @ratio 's query has a good deal of wisdom -- both I and my two children were brought up in a farm environment (just you try to stay clean when you're mucking out a barn!) and are remarkably free of the usual minor ailments -- and no allergies at all.

    Oh and just to add for age... the first summer camp I went to (age 12) had privies... some appreciable distance from the cabins... in the woods... with no lights.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • ratioratio Member Posts: 2,428
    It's almost as if the more we do 'externally', as it were, the less we can do intrinsically.
  • unclejohnunclejohn Member Posts: 1,545
    I have no use for touch less anything especially plumbing fixtures. They hardly every work properly, I can dry my hands waving them in front of the towel dispenser before a shred of paper appears. The water shoots out of the faucet after my hands are gone and stops when they are under. I usually end up using my shirt to dry off on and my sleeves to wipe my mouth. There will always be germs and like the Men in Black say there is always some terrible event that will wipe us all out right around the corner. Remember there was a ice age coming before global warming, then all the bees were going to die, Acid rain was next and New York is already supposed to be under water. Politicians will hurt you much more then germs.
    Intplm.
  • ZmanZman Member Posts: 5,827

    Continuing on about men's/women's bathrooms: Traditionally they've gotten equal areas but that means the women's has fewer fixtures (urinals take up less space than toilet stalls) so the first step is to have equal numbers of fixtures in each. The next step is to aim for equal waiting times, because women take longer to do their business than men, on average, and more of them wash their hands afterwards, so somewhat more fixtures are needed for similar wait times.

    This is all addressed in the UPC. The fixture count is always required to be equal or some occupancies like theaters and stadiums there are significantly more women's lavs and water closets.
    https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IPC2018/chapter-4-fixtures-faucets-and-fixture-fittings
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,895
    Was a farm hand for the summer of 1965, no indoor WC. The outhouse was about a 100' away. This was not uncommon then.
    But I never saw a hand washing lav at any of them.
    Many people of the generation before me survived this trauma.

    Also some earlier thought it was definitely unsanitary to bring the WC into the house. This was something to be left outside.
    luketheplumber
  • Intplm.Intplm. Member Posts: 1,158
    I was in a public restroom today.
    I noticed for the first time a foot angle bar at the bottom of the door to use when exiting the restroom. I thought, now thats a great idea.
    CLamb
Sign In or Register to comment.

Welcome

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!