How some pros install and professionals accept

Henry

I was asked to check on the two boilers and 3 storage tank installation at a new student residence. This was an engineered job. The engineer said the install was correct. There was two 500,000 BTU boilers connected together on 1 1/2 pipe as well as the three tanks. Failure 1, pipe sizing to small for 100 GPM. Failure 2, the small Taco pumps could pump 20 GPM if there was no boiler restriction. Plumber redid the piping and installed the correct model Grundfos pumps. Failure 3, look how the pumps were installed. One already was making noise.

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Oops!

Jamie Hall

Sigh. And among other things shows why engineers shouldn't be turned loose on a design until they've gotten their boots or hands, as the case may be, dirty.

Henry

Another bad install of a Smith steam boiler by a large contractor. Also the boiler feed is just behind into the second section, no Hartford loop etc..:

Henry

Jamie, that is why this client asks me to check every install.

ratio

<sigh>

Steamhead

You can re-do a bad install, but you can't fix stupid.

I bet that Smith steamer had a welded header too...............

Pumpguy

I've seen this sort of thing many times myself.

What's even more discouraging is when the job is still on paper and you have an opportunity to discuss the features of the job with the engineer, and get told "I don't care about your expertise, this is the way I want it".

So, then it has to be corrected after the installation.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Oh my, if I had a dollar for all the times I've said "do you want me to build it like the print, or do you want it to work?". That's the truth.

The answer is always the same, do it by the drawing and we will get change orders to make it right when they figure out it doesn't work.

But, I still get the stinkeye from the customer because it doesnt work the first time.

Sigh.....

egansen

Did they cut holes in the drywall to clear the junction boxes on the pumps? That's just sad.

DZoro

No excuse for that at all. Well of course unless you don't have any mc wire, to mount them properly, but you have your knife to cut out the drywall!
Didn't even have to rotate the flanges...
Sad very sad...
D

Solid_Fuel_Man

Seeing any pump with anything but a horizontal shaft just makes me cringe. I know Taco and maybe others allow it if over 20psi, but I NEVER EVER do it. Seems amateurish, let alone the drywall!

Henry

Steamhead, all of OUR Smith installs with piping over 2 inch are welded. We do the install as per Smith piping instructions. The original install did not have swing joints and the header pulled the joints apart. The new replacement boiler was also installed as a cut and paste, so it leaked. After my visit with Smith piping diagrams, it was redone with the boiler feed into the Hartford loop of proper size etc plus the boiler two outlets were redone with swing joints as per Smith piping diagrams.

Steamhead

So, what you're saying is it took three boilers to get it right?

Are the present swing joints threaded?

motoguy128

I was a Facilities engineer and I’m my last two positions, the engineering was horrendous. I was eventually asked to find another job. More recently I just had enough corporate BS and power tripping insecure managers and gave up and went into the trades.

Intplm.

motoguy128 said:

I was a Facilities engineer and I’m my last two positions, the engineering was horrendous. I was eventually asked to find another job. More recently I just had enough corporate BS and power tripping insecure managers and gave up and went into the trades.

More often than anyone might believe is how truly horrible and incompetent Facility engineers can be.
I have seen some of the most egregious work done by these so called "engineers".
I had determined that some are engineers in title only and had no engineering degree. They sure make a bad impression on the true degreed engineers.
@motoguy128 How do you suppose this so common.

mattmia2

I work on AV systems. Most of the people calling themselves engineers do not actually have engineering degrees.

The workmanship we get from contractors is abysmal. We seem to be the first person to have tried any of the features of the systems when they represent it as complete to us. Much of it ends up never working, we end up troubleshooting and integrating components to get them to work ourselves, what is installed only loosely matches the specification we gave them to install from, they do a poor job of communicating what they bid on to their installers.

Intplm.

This is such an odd phenomenon to me.
I have had engineers order techs to do things that are against code, and health codes !
If some inexperienced tech blindly does what they are told, and some have. The problems can be very problematic. And those problems can last for years. As a older more experienced person. I don't get a lot of this nonsense from engineers as much as I used to.
Too many arguments. To many problems. How has this been allowed in this industry for so long?
Is it getting any better? Or is it worse.

motoguy128

> @Intplm. said:
> (Quote)
> More often than anyone might believe is how truly horrible and incompetent Facility engineers can be.
> I have seen some of the most egregious work done by these so called "engineers".
> I had determined that some are engineers in title only and had no engineering degree. They sure make a bad impression on the true degreed engineers.
> @motoguy128 How do you suppose this so common.

I had a bachelor of science but not a full engineering degree. So I learned in the field, though not hands on. Most engineers are great at calculus and physics and problems on paper with mass balances, flow charts etc. but not field experience, common sense or true understanding of the equipment. For whatever reason they only teach theory and formulas not any practical knowledge.

An apprenticeship with a mechanical for ME, electrical for EE, general for CE and pipe fitter for ChemE should be a requirement for graduation or at least your PE license.

There is also arrogance. They don’t want to learn from anyone “below” them. They want to be in control. Biggest part of learning is recognizing and admitting when your wrong. It’s really hard for an engineer I think.

On the flip side, it’s hard learn from tradesmen as they are often on the opposite end. They have tribal knowledge but don’t necessarily know why something is done a certain way.

I like to think I’ll be able to combine both as I move forward.

Intplm.

I agree......And both, indeed should be combined as you mentioned.

mattmia2

As the owner and a cog in an enormous bureaucracy, we inevitably find something that was wrong in the spec when we try to install a system. Even though it happens every time, everyone acts surprised and doesn't seem to have a process to fix it(even though that process is spelled out in the specification and usually amounts to the contractor's engineer is responsible for verifying that the equipment you are installing works together and if you didn't do that before you bid on it ask us about it or include it in your bid that isn't our problem.)

I see a lot of it as their sales people didn't do their job and are now trying to build what they quoted, not what they agreed to.

The Steam Whisperer

Makes me wonder if they were referencing the preferred 40F delta tee for condensing boilers, then a 1 1/2 inch pipe would work for each boiler, but still not 1 1/2 for both boilers. The pumps might have been the right size then.

Intplm.

How often have things been wrong in the specifications and the prints and have seen installers through their hands in the air and just do it as specified.

Zman

For the sake of the conversation, we are talking about Professional Engineers (PE) or degreed engineers who are either working for a PE or for a manufacturer, yes?

Train Engineers generally are not very knowledgeable about heating and maintenance guys who have been given the "Engineer" title by some HR person are an insult to the profession.

I do think that redirecting engineers is an art form. Phone calls and trying to explain it verbally almost never works unless you have a positive relationship, to begin with. Your frustration is difficult to mask and they usually get defensive.

I like to do a very clear markup of the plans explaining the concerns and suggesting alternatives. It is important to keep it 100% factual and positive. Clearly state what you are concerned about and why. On the pipe sizing in this example, you would point out that although the design will work, you are concerned that you will get a callback because of noisy pipes. You could also point out the pipe velocities and your experience with pipe erosion.

I usually give them a phone call heads up before sending the markup, I reinforce that I would like to have them read my comments and then would like to set up a time to discuss. Again say nothing confrontational.

Most of the time, when they are faced with just the facts, in writing, they will sign off on the changes. Nobody likes to accept that they made a mistake, especially engineers. If they are faced with the choice of an easy path to correct the mistake with no blame assigned or potentially be called out with "I told you so" and potentially a bill for the changes, I have found they will usually take the easier path.

If you can manage the conversation so the fix seems like their idea, you get extra points.

Henry

Steamhead, the swing joints are welded as they are 3 inch. No problem, the Smith 28A have 5 inch outlets and e weld them.

Steamhead

Expect that boiler to leak too. If the joints cannot move, as threaded joints do, they are not "swing joints".

One would think after replacing the boiler three times, the lesson would be learned...................

ChrisJ

Steamhead said:

Expect that boiler to leak too. If the joints cannot move, as threaded joints do, they are not "swing joints".

One would think after replacing the boiler three times, the lesson would be learned...................

From the Smith manual


From a quick Google search

Henry

Underground storage tanks for gasoline, diesel and others are piped 2 inch, so threaded. 46 years of installing cast iron steam boilers, all size 3 inch or larger have welded swing joints with NO failures. That install was done by a big contractor that did not read the manufacturers instruction. I do a fair number of new boiler assembly for other contractors that then screw up the piping. I do also a good number of Smith replacements because of bad piping. I won a case against BI & I (re-insurers and boiler inspectors) because the boiler inspector did not see the improper piping that was pulling the sections apart. The settlement was over $250,000.

Steamhead

So if these tanks were piped 2-1/2", you'd weld them?

ChrisJ

B_Sloane

Intplm. said:

motoguy128 said:

I was a Facilities engineer and I’m my last two positions, the engineering was horrendous. I was eventually asked to find another job. More recently I just had enough corporate BS and power tripping insecure managers and gave up and went into the trades.

More often than anyone might believe is how truly horrible and incompetent Facility engineers can be.
I have seen some of the most egregious work done by these so called "engineers".
I had determined that some are engineers in title only and had no engineering degree. They sure make a bad impression on the true degreed engineers.
@motoguy128 How do you suppose this so common.

I was an engineer for a design/build contractor
after years of arguments with management about "just get some money off"
I went to the trades also

B_Sloane

P.S.
the last Job had 200 gpm flow to zones
but
only 160,000 btu's
Management reply ..?
"Zone Diversity" will take care of it !!