Installing Hartford Loop on WM EG-55 steam boiler

EdwinD

Hello,

This discusssion started in an old thread of mine re installing a LWC with probe. In sharing pics, you all kindly alerted me that my EG-55 was incorrectly piped - as in 2 risers into the main when it should be 1 riser, Also a hartord loop was piped all wrong. Rather than post all of the before-pictures again, see pages 3, and page 4 from links below for before pics.
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/166105/replacing-low-water-cut-off-float-type/p3
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/166105/replacing-low-water-cut-off-float-type/p4

Here's my update, after much planning, tugging and twisting, I have the hartford loop installed, Thoughts and suggestions appreciated. All that is left is to run the condensate line.

About the condensate line,it will require 7' of pipe from an existing nipple on an existing section of the condensate line, then do a 90 degree turn to the hartfors loop followed by 3' of pipe tieing into the bottom of a tee on the equalizer. I'm concerned about support for the 7' run. Should a portion of the 7' run be on the floor? For support, near the end thru the 7' run, I considered doing a 45 degree slope (45 degree elbow) to the floor just pripr to the 90 degree turn. . Also for eaiser access, I thought of adding a union aprox. halfway between the 7' run. Any suggestions you can share for piping a condensate line into a steam boiler is much appreciated!

Below are update pics showing the new Hartford Loop. I made sure of the mininum 2" clearance from the top of the waterline. Note at the piping with a tee below the loop is a mockup ready for taping.

Thanks!

Fred

Why did you not take your vertical equalizer pipe over from the Header and down the other side? That would have eliminated that crossover pipe and protected you from a leak that might develop in that pipe. As it is, the Hartford loop will protect the boiler from draining empty should you develop a leak in your 7' condensate line but won't protect you from a leak in that 2' crossover pipe.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Look fine to me as is as far as the Hartford goes. If the condensate 7' pipe is a wet return run above the floor if it's less than a foot or so above the floor support it with split ring hangers and f & M plates. If it's higher than that the threaded rod will be a bit wobbley. Then you could off set it closer to the floor with 45s

JUGHNE

I agree with Fred's theory of lost water.
But mainly I would avoid any horizontal pipes on the boiler return. Having cleaned some pipes in this situation they end up full of sludge as does the boiler.

It has seemed better to have the horizontal sludge collection pipes in the wet return. The junk would have to climb up to the HL tee to get into the boiler.
I would put the wet return piping on bricks. That allows room for pipe wrenches and drain valves.....I would rather step on a pipe on a solid brick then get hit in the shins, knees etc, cheap support BTW.
Not wanting to step over something 12" above the floor if not necessary. (it is an old guy thing and we all will be there someday)
IIWM, I would put a ball valve drain on the end of the return, add another drain/plug at maybe the higher point of the wet return. Then be able to flush the wet return with water pressure. 2 hoses connected would do it. This is the bottom of the return system and most junk would end up here.

Also, looking at your header....is the equalizer/drip end into the drop, sloped to drain to the drip? Hard to tell from the picture.

EdwinD

Fred said:

Why did you not take your vertical equalizer pipe over from the Header and down the other side? That would have eliminated that crossover pipe and protected you from a leak that might develop in that pipe. As it is, the Hartford loop will protect the boiler from draining empty should you develop a leak in your 7' condensate line but won't protect you from a leak in that 2' crossover pipe.

@Fred Thanks for your input! I was basing my config off this weil-mclain diagram for an EG-55 parallel flow system - see below. Originally I was going to go down the other side, but based on WM's diagram required removal of a plug in the boiler, which was imposssible to remove without drilling and cutting it. Also, not showing is my probe type LWC. I disconnected it temporarily to have more space.

EdwinD

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

Look fine to me as is as far as the Hartford goes. If the condensate 7' pipe is a wet return run above the floor if it's less than a foot or so above the floor support it with split ring hangers and f & M plates. If it's higher than that the threaded rod will be a bit wobbley. Then you could off set it closer to the floor with 45s

@EBEBRATT-Ed Thanks! Yes, your suggestion is very similar to what I am thinking

EdwinD

JUGHNE said:

I agree with Fred's theory of lost water.
But mainly I would avoid any horizontal pipes on the boiler return. Having cleaned some pipes in this situation they end up full of sludge as does the boiler.

It has seemed better to have the horizontal sludge collection pipes in the wet return. The junk would have to climb up to the HL tee to get into the boiler.
I would put the wet return piping on bricks. That allows room for pipe wrenches and drain valves.....I would rather step on a pipe on a solid brick then get hit in the shins, knees etc, cheap support BTW.
Not wanting to step over something 12" above the floor if not necessary. (it is an old guy thing and we all will be there someday)
IIWM, I would put a ball valve drain on the end of the return, add another drain/plug at maybe the higher point of the wet return. Then be able to flush the wet return with water pressure. 2 hoses connected would do it. This is the bottom of the return system and most junk would end up here.

Also, looking at your header....is the equalizer/drip end into the drop, sloped to drain to the drip? Hard to tell from the picture.

@JUGHNE Thanks! Yes, the equalizer drip end has a slight slope to drain. The old wet returns I cut out, had sludge, but not as much as expected. Surprisingly, for their age, they were pretty clear. I get what you're saying about a ball valve drain on the end of the return - I've seen those on quite a few professional installs from scanning the net. By the way, I have a parallel flow system.

clammy

The way u drop ur equalizer and tied into your return tapping is fine .i have been doing it the same way for about 20 years The horizontal piping might gather some crap but better there then in the boiler block .plus a straight drop on the equilizer is preferred and shown in every manafactures diagram ,I see you put tees and plugs so cleaning should be easy ,did you install a full 2 1/2 nipple cap in the unused return tap,I usually add a tee and boiler drain to help skim across the section instead of feeding and skimming on the same side just a little easier and cuts some time also makes it easier to wash out and ensure that no mud is laying in the height difference that a2 1/2 x 2 bushing creates some may say its a moot point but if you are doing it why not do it completely right and cover your bases ,plugs that have been in boiler for years can some times be extremely difficult at best to remove . Plus with your wet return much lower then the bottom of the boiler should also keep most of the crap out .i would suggest a ball valve on the Hartford loop so you can flush out the returns .all in all I have seen worse by guys who get paid to this so hold your head high . I also like the fact that you raised your pressuretrol and gauges up high could have used a nice cross tee w plugs to flush the assemble clean kudos .iusually mounted them off the skim tapping w a 1 1/4 x 3/4 tee and a riser nipple and cross tee have never had a pig tail clog this way never either way decent piping Peace and good luck clammy

clammy

Ps even though they show only1 90 off the riser I would have used 2 to create a swing joint and installed a union on the return off the block one more spot for some expansion to take place and lessen stress on the bloc’ but this is just me and usually I try not to cut corners over a couple of fitting peace and good luck clammy

ChrisJ

It's fine. I think it came out really good!

What if you develop a leak in the block? Or the fitting right at the block?

That's what LWCOs are for.

mikeg2015

I like having wet return lines drop in as low as possible before hte Hartford loop. That way it acts like a mud separator so crud has to flow upward to get to the return and there’s more water pressure to flush it.

Rather than plugs, I’d just go ahead and install boiler drains to occasionally clean out mud. If the drain leak, you can just put a cap on them... and they have hose connections for flushing.

EdwinD

> @EdwinD said:
> (Quote)
> @EBEBRATT-Ed Thanks! Yes, your suggestion is very similar to what I am thinking

@EBEBRATT-Ed
Actually, the 7 ' run is a dry return. Thanks again!

EdwinD

clammy said:

The way u drop ur equalizer and tied into your return tapping is fine .i have been doing it the same way for about 20 years The horizontal piping might gather some crap but better there then in the boiler block .plus a straight drop on the equilizer is preferred and shown in every manafactures diagram ,I see you put tees and plugs so cleaning should be easy ,did you install a full 2 1/2 nipple cap in the unused return tap,I usually add a tee and boiler drain to help skim across the section instead of feeding and skimming on the same side just a little easier and cuts some time also makes it easier to wash out and ensure that no mud is laying in the height difference that a2 1/2 x 2 bushing creates some may say its a moot point but if you are doing it why not do it completely right and cover your bases ,plugs that have been in boiler for years can some times be extremely difficult at best to remove . Plus with your wet return much lower then the bottom of the boiler should also keep most of the crap out .i would suggest a ball valve on the Hartford loop so you can flush out the returns .all in all I have seen worse by guys who get paid to this so hold your head high . I also like the fact that you raised your pressuretrol and gauges up high could have used a nice cross tee w plugs to flush the assemble clean kudos .iusually mounted them off the skim tapping w a 1 1/4 x 3/4 tee and a riser nipple and cross tee have never had a pig tail clog this way never either way decent piping Peace and good luck clammy

@Clammy Thanks! About the 2 1/2 unused return tap on the other side, it has a plug I tried to remove, but it won't come out unless I cut it out. It was plugged (for how long I don't know) when I bought all new boiler sections in Dec. '17. I like the idea of adding a drain on that side. Also, I intend add a ball valve on the Hartford loop as suggested. The insight is much appreciated!

EdwinD

clammy said:

Ps even though they show only1 90 off the riser I would have used 2 to create a swing joint and installed a union on the return off the block one more spot for some expansion to take place and lessen stress on the bloc’ but this is just me and usually I try not to cut corners over a couple of fitting peace and good luck clammy

@Clammy Thanks for sharing.

Jamie Hall

Ah. I hadn't quite added up that the 7 foot drain is dry. In which case, of course, it won't accumulate any crud, but does need to pitch to drain somewhere. Doesn't need cleanouts. But does need to be high enough to stay dry!

EdwinD

ChrisJ said:

It's fine. I think it came out really good!

What if you develop a leak in the block? Or the fitting right at the block?

That's what LWCOs are for.

@ChrisJ Thanks! All advice is appreciated! A side note to everyone, my LWCO isn't showing b/c I dismantled it so I didn't bang it while doing the piping.

EdwinD

mikeg2015 said:

I like having wet return lines drop in as low as possible before hte Hartford loop. That way it acts like a mud separator so crud has to flow upward to get to the return and there’s more water pressure to flush it.

Rather than plugs, I’d just go ahead and install boiler drains to occasionally clean out mud. If the drain leak, you can just put a cap on them... and they have hose connections for flushing.

@mikeg2015 Thanks, I will do just that - drop my wet return before the HL (about a 3' run of pipe) as low as possible and add a boiler drain(s) as you and a few others have suggested. Re boiler drain valves, is there a preferred brand?

EdwinD

> @Jamie Hall said:
> Ah. I hadn't quite added up that the 7 foot drain is dry. In which case, of course, it won't accumulate any crud, but does need to pitch to drain somewhere. Doesn't need cleanouts. But does need to be high enough to stay dry.

@Jamie Hall Thanks! Speaking of the 7' dry drain, with pitch, is a check valve needed? A 1/2" water line feeds in at the beginning of the 7' run. This is how it was before I took the old pipe out, which had a check valve.

mikeg2015

> @EdwinD said:
> (Quote)
> @Clammy Thanks! About the 2 1/2 unused return tap on the other side, it has a plug I tried to remove, but it won't come out unless I cut it out. It was plugged (for how long I don't know) when I bought all new boiler sections in Dec. '17. I like the idea of adding a drain on that side. Also, I intend add a ball valve on the Hartford loop as suggested. The insight is much appreciated!


I’ve had good luck drilling them cutting out plugs. The metal cuts easy with a thin sawzall blade. Make 3 cuts out from center near the threads then torque it and t usually collapses inward and threads out. Pipe nipples can come out this way too but not as easy. I’ve tried heating, even with an oxy acytelene setup and not luck.

EdwinD

mikeg2015 said:

> @EdwinD said:

> (Quote)

> @Clammy Thanks! About the 2 1/2 unused return tap on the other side, it has a plug I tried to remove, but it won't come out unless I cut it out. It was plugged (for how long I don't know) when I bought all new boiler sections in Dec. '17. I like the idea of adding a drain on that side. Also, I intend add a ball valve on the Hartford loop as suggested. The insight is much appreciated!





I’ve had good luck drilling them cutting out plugs. The metal cuts easy with a thin sawzall blade. Make 3 cuts out from center near the threads then torque it and t usually collapses inward and threads out. Pipe nipples can come out this way too but not as easy. I’ve tried heating, even with an oxy acytelene setup and not luck.

@mikeg2015 Thanks! Thats good to know. Old plugs are a bear to get out. So, prior to cutting, do you drill in the pattern of the cut line you intend to make?

JUGHNE

As you speak of cleaning out the short wet return section, I have one that has unions on the vertical riser to the HL and also on the 2 dry drops. Unions are well above the wet level in the horizontal return. So I can just crack the unions and take the whole messy part outside and clean with garden hose.

For boiler drains on another non removable 2" wet return I had, I put a reducing fitting and then a small 3/4" drain valve on the initial install. The larger full port ball valves get costly, considering you seldom need them. My thought is to drain the liquid out, remove the reducer, install a rubber Fernco coupling then use PVC to pipe to the drain. Then back flush from whatever end can get connected to water pressure. This keeps the black crude from hitting the floor which usually is not sloped towards the floor drain.

You should not want the check valve if you have the wet return water seal between boiler and dry return drops. IMO

EdwinD

JUGHNE said:

As you speak of cleaning out the short wet return section, I have one that has unions on the vertical riser to the HL and also on the 2 dry drops. Unions are well above the wet level in the horizontal return. So I can just crack the unions and take the whole messy part outside and clean with garden hose.

For boiler drains on another non removable 2" wet return I had, I put a reducing fitting and then a small 3/4" drain valve on the initial install. The larger full port ball valves get costly, considering you seldom need them. My thought is to drain the liquid out, remove the reducer, install a rubber Fernco coupling then use PVC to pipe to the drain. Then back flush from whatever end can get connected to water pressure. This keeps the black crude from hitting the floor which usually is not sloped towards the floor drain.

You should not want the check valve if you have the wet return water seal between boiler and dry return drops. IMO

@JUGHNE Thanks! So many great suggestions from you and all the others has provided a much clearer path to coming up with a good plan. My understanding is light years from where it used to be just a year ago. Its invaluable learning best practices from true"experts." You guys are the best. It is very much appreciated!

In developing a final plan, I'm incline to add a union on the vertical riser below the HL, and addi a union midway on the final 7' of the dry return - to add flexibility for cleaning. I'm glad to know I can eliminate the check valve which helps to simplify matters.

Thanks again

mikeg2015

> @EdwinD said:
> (Quote)
> @mikeg2015 Thanks! Thats good to know. Old plugs are a bear to get out. So, prior to cutting, do you drill in the pattern of the cut line you intend to make?

No just make a single hole in the center big enough to fit the saw blade then slice outward towards the threads in 3 or 4 directions. Stop just short of the threads making sure your blade is parallel to the threads while cutting too.

It’s worth trying a 24” or 35” pipe wrench on it first. Whack it hard with a BFH into the plug socket too to loosen the threads.

Bad news is after all the pounding you’ll knock loose a bunch of scale you’ll need to flush out of the boiler.

Jamie Hall

EdwinD said:

> @Jamie Hall said:

> Ah. I hadn't quite added up that the 7 foot drain is dry. In which case, of course, it won't accumulate any crud, but does need to pitch to drain somewhere. Doesn't need cleanouts. But does need to be high enough to stay dry.



@Jamie Hall Thanks! Speaking of the 7' dry drain, with pitch, is a check valve needed? A 1/2" water line feeds in at the beginning of the 7' run. This is how it was before I took the old pipe out, which had a check valve.

Say what? What is a water line doing feeding into a dry return??? No, a check valve isn't needed -- or even wanted -- provided the dry return is high enough to avoid getting flooded at the boiler shutoff pressure.

Fred

@EdwinD , what are you calling a dry return? Is that return up above the boiler (a dry return) or is it down below the boiler water line (a wet return)? It is unusual for the water supply to be in a dry return.

EdwinD

Jamie Hall said:

EdwinD said:

> @Jamie Hall said:

> Ah. I hadn't quite added up that the 7 foot drain is dry. In which case, of course, it won't accumulate any crud, but does need to pitch to drain somewhere. Doesn't need cleanouts. But does need to be high enough to stay dry.



@Jamie Hall Thanks! Speaking of the 7' dry drain, with pitch, is a check valve needed? A 1/2" water line feeds in at the beginning of the 7' run. This is how it was before I took the old pipe out, which had a check valve.

Say what? What is a water line doing feeding into a dry return??? No, a check valve isn't needed -- or even wanted -- provided the dry return is high enough to avoid getting flooded at the boiler shutoff pressure.

@Jamie Hall Thanks - Good to know! That was the original configuration. The water line fed water into the dry return to feed the boiler fresh water when needed. Ignore the blue arrow. The water is to the right. Thanks!

Correction: Actually that is a wet return (not dry) as the return is 20" high and the boiler water line is 23-13/36" high. My mistake. A few seconds ago, I measured what is in fact a wet return at 20" high. I screwed up eyeballing it a while ago -- thinking it was a bit higher.

EdwinD

Fred said:

@EdwinD , what are you calling a dry return? Is that return up above the boiler (a dry return) or is it down below the boiler water line (a wet return)? It is unusual for the water supply to be in a dry return.

I'm corrected, the line running along the wall behind the boiler is 4 inches below the water line -- making it a wet return. The water line is 23-13/16" I screwed up and should have put the tape on it instead of the eyeball test. This was the original configuration.

EdwinD

mikeg2015 said:

> @EdwinD said:

> (Quote)

> @mikeg2015 Thanks! Thats good to know. Old plugs are a bear to get out. So, prior to cutting, do you drill in the pattern of the cut line you intend to make?



No just make a single hole in the center big enough to fit the saw blade then slice outward towards the threads in 3 or 4 directions. Stop just short of the threads making sure your blade is parallel to the threads while cutting too.



It’s worth trying a 24” or 35” pipe wrench on it first. Whack it hard with a BFH into the plug socket too to loosen the threads.



Bad news is after all the pounding you’ll knock loose a bunch of scale you’ll need to flush out of the boiler.

@mikeg2015 Thanks for the useful tips!

ethicalpaul

Looks great. The Hartford Loop doesn't do anything useful in a modern residential boiler anyway

EdwinD

@ethicapaul Thank you! A quick question re the near boiler portion of the condensate line (wet return) running behind the bolier - can I eliminate the check valve? This was old near boiler piping that's now removed. Ignore the blue arrows.

Fred

@EdwinD , Did you change the location of your Hartford loop to eliminate that 2' crossover pipe? This looks really good. To your question about the check valve, yes, remove it. It serves no purpose and can be a problem at a later date if it sticks closed. Great job!

Fred

ethicalpaul said:

Looks great. The Hartford Loop doesn't do anything useful in a modern residential boiler anyway

I beg to differ. That Hartford loop is a backup to a failed LWCO and it remains an important safety, even on modern systems. We all know how many failed LWCO's we see here and how many leaks we see somewhere in those wet returns, especially the ones buried under the floor.

ethicalpaul

But the Hartford Loop doesn't protect against any of that.

But rather than hijack this thread, I made a new discussion, come on over: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/171044/does-the-hartford-loop-actually-do-anything-today/p1?new=1

EdwinD

Fred said:

@EdwinD , Did you change the location of your Hartford loop to eliminate that 2' crossover pipe? This looks really good. To your question about the check valve, yes, remove it. It serves no purpose and can be a problem at a later date if it sticks closed. Great job!

@Fred As always, thanks for your input! The 2" crossover pipe from the old configuration is gone - it was totally filled with gunk.
I still have the new 1-1/2" cross over pipe -is this the piece you're referring to? (circled in blue) I'm not sure how I can eliminate that as the return water goes through that pipe I have circled. I'm just a layman, so maybe I'm missing your point. Please clarify. Thanks.

Fred

@EdwinD , no, that pipe you have circled is fine. My concern was with the pipe that ran across the side of your boiler. Taking that out of the equation eliminated both a potential for a leak and also a place for sediment to clog the return. Your current configuration looks great.

EdwinD

@Fred

Thank you! I get it now. Correct, rather than relocate the old HL, I totally removed it and removed the 2' crossover pipe. That old 2' crossover was connected to the condensate line (wet return), which was also tapped into by a galvanized water line for filling the boiler. I also removed an unecessary riser from the old HL, which for some reason, was tied into the steam main.

Below: see tee at bottom of new Hartford loop. To deal with clogging, as the condensate line makes a 90 degree turn toward the HL, there will be a tee w/plug , then the same condensate line connects to a tee at the bottom riser on the Hartford loop - with a drain valve on the end of that tee. Where a plug is shown will be a drain valve. Hope this makes sense.

Any suggestions are quite welcome. Thanks again!

EdwinD

Update, I finished piping and fired up the boiler. After firing the boiler, within 16 minutes, all 11 rads were receiving heat, no hissing, no knocking, no water hammer, total silence, which I'm happy to report. I'm now skimming the boiler.

However, after firing, I noticed the hartford loop and equalizer were hot, should that be the case? I would think it's normal but want to be sure. As required, the top of the loop is 2-1/2" below the water line. Thoughts appreciated. Thanks.

ChrisJ

You're dumping a ton of hot water, 212F+- down the equalizer.

So....

EdwinD

ChrisJ said:

You're dumping a ton of hot water, 212F+- down the equalizer.

So....

I don't know what you mean. Please explain. The system is piped according to manufacturer specs. See earlier pics in the thread. Thanks.

ChrisJ

> @EdwinD said:
> (Quote)
> I don't know what you mean. Please explain. The system is piped according to manufacturer specs. See earlier pics in the thread. Thanks.

https://youtu.be/ovFq-RPdK1M

Fred

@EdwinD , Yes, the equalizer will be nearly as hot as your header and steam mains. That heat will transfer to the Hartford loop. It is normal! Enjoy!