Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.

If you've found help here, check back in to let us know how everything worked out.
It's a great way to thank those who helped you.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.

Switching from oil to LP

TimcoTimco Posts: 2,938Member
edited July 30 in THE MAIN WALL
So our new home has brand new oil tanks (2) and a 2 year old Uticia CI boiler with a DHW arm and an indirect. All copper fin baseboard. When I was told what the previous owners paid last year total for oil, I decided to look into an LP unit since I can get a combi boiler very well priced and I am planning on relocating and consolidating all three LP tanks into one in the back corner of the yard anyway. Since I have never used or serviced an oil type boiler before, is there any reason to reconsider swapping to LP from oil? New combi will be 96% efficient and I am leaning towards all staple-up with AL plates for main floor and CIBB to replace the dated and beat up copper fin BB. I have to assume there's a market to sell the oil boiler and tanks? Keep as backup?

On a side note, I overheard a discussion where it was claimed that heating oil is just diesel but due to state regs diesel for cars cannot be put in oil tanks. Any truth to this?

Thanks, Tim
Technical Support Manager, HTP Comfort Solutions.

Comments

  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 966Member
    I would stay with OIL over LP hands down!

    Oil / NG the price per BTU output over 10 years is generally the same. LP has always been higher and just lower then Straight elec!
  • ZmanZman Posts: 5,334Member
    You will get pennies on the dollar for your old oil boiler and tanks.
    Here is a good way to evaluate.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Posts: 11,466Member
    2 year old oil tanks? 2 year old Utica? Stay with the oil. You have years of use coming up out of that system, and it's a very good system. As @pecmsg just said, the price difference per BTU for oil vs LP is very small -- sometimes one is more, sometimes the other. You would never recover the cost of the changeover -- even if you just swapped the boiler, never mind the cost of going to a radiant system.

    But do get the Utica cleaned and properly adjusted. That will make a difference.

    On diesel vs. #2 fuel oil. There is very little difference in the fuel itself; the diesel for vehicles does have some additives to help them stay clean, and is blended a little differently in the winter to keep the oil from gelling. More important, the diesel for on-road vehicles is taxed and #2 fuel oil for heating isn't. The fines for using #2 in your on-road vehicle are impressive.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,244Member

    2 year old oil tanks? 2 year old Utica? Stay with the oil. You have years of use coming up out of that system, and it's a very good system. As @pecmsg just said, the price difference per BTU for oil vs LP is very small -- sometimes one is more, sometimes the other. You would never recover the cost of the changeover -- even if you just swapped the boiler, never mind the cost of going to a radiant system.

    But do get the Utica cleaned and properly adjusted. That will make a difference.

    On diesel vs. #2 fuel oil. There is very little difference in the fuel itself; the diesel for vehicles does have some additives to help them stay clean, and is blended a little differently in the winter to keep the oil from gelling. More important, the diesel for on-road vehicles is taxed and #2 fuel oil for heating isn't. The fines for using #2 in your on-road vehicle are impressive.

    Yeah, I think the OP had it backwards.
    I don't think anyone would ever complain if you burn taxed Diesel in your heating system. :D

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Posts: 3,494Member
    If it's all ultra low sulfur, on and off road are identical except for federal excise tax, state tax and local (if any) tax.
    They add dye so they can test for/catch tax evaders on the highway. The fine is quite substantial and based on gallon of tank capacity, so don't even think about putting dyed diesel in an on road vehicle-the cheapest one being, $10/gallon of tank capacity or $1000, whichever is greater.
    Most states now use bio diesel. Same ultra low sulfur base, just proper percentage of bio injected.
    When you load any product at most racks (refinery/tank farms) you pick what you want to load and any additives.
    They make a winter blend diesel, especially for bio to lower the pour point in winter as newer diesel engines with their advanced (horrible new) emissions are trying to keep people away from kero blends.
    For your heating oil tank, best to have your oil company evaluate and recommend an additive (if needed) and stick to one brand.

    And as the others mentioned, you'll never get enough payback to justify switching to propane. Propane price is much more volatile and very prone to distribution problems when in short supply, like a brutally cold winter, snow/ice storm, etc.
    Worse case with heating oil is you could go to the gas station and get 5/10 gallons of diesel to dump into your tank to keep you going, in the event of in-climate weather (heavy snow/ice storm) preventing a delivery.
    steve
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 12,042Member
    If you switch to low temperature radiant be sure to add boiler return protection to that boiler.

    Do a load calc, room by room. See how the current BB looks against the load. How low of a SWT can you run? The lower the boiler operating temperature, the more efficient. Any boiler :)

    LP as of this morning in SW Missouri $1.15, fuel oil $2.38
    Lp is the more common fuel in these real midwest part of the country. LP and oil prices seem to rise and fall together.


    Worth a read for all hydronics owners, or wana bees

    https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/idronics_25_na.pdf
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 6,116Member
    I worked for an oil company years ago. We burned #2 oil in our trucks all the time. Had our own barrell of addative to add. All you had to do was pay tax on the #2oil.

    So they did. Put 50 gallons in the truck....pay tax on 25 gallons...............
  • GrallertGrallert Posts: 345Member
    When I was doing service of oil systems we only sold oil no gas at all lots of folks were considering switch to natural as there were pipes being laid all over. I was asked all the time what I thought. I'd remind them that one of the things they'd miss if they went over to gas might be my smiling face at any time of the day or night if there happened to be an issue. At that time the fuel oil companies were all or mostly old family business and really prided them selves of their service.
  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Posts: 3,494Member

    I worked for an oil company years ago. We burned #2 oil in our trucks all the time. Had our own barrell of addative to add. All you had to do was pay tax on the #2oil...

    Yeah the IRS caught on to that years ago. If you load it clear, you pay the tax. If you load it dyed, no tax.
    If you use clear in a non-taxable way you can apply for a refund on the road tax.
    Suppliers, once a month
    Consumers, once a year.
    If you use dyed in a taxable way, still illegal. No mechanism for paying road tax other than the fines like I stated earlier.

    steve
  • TimcoTimco Posts: 2,938Member
    So to be clear, even the jump in efficiency doesn't make this worth swapping out? Even of the combi is free?
    Technical Support Manager, HTP Comfort Solutions.
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,373Member
    Two things to remember: first, a gallon of LP contains 92,000 BTU, roughly 66% of the 140,000 BTU in a gallon of #2.

    And, unlike natural gas, LP is heavier than air, so it can accumulate on the floor, waiting for a source of ignition.

    I'd stay with oil.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Posts: 11,466Member
    Timco said:

    So to be clear, even the jump in efficiency doesn't make this worth swapping out? Even of the combi is free?

    Keep in mind that there is no free lunch...

    Other than that, no. The jump in efficiency won't pay out for the other costs.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • TimcoTimco Posts: 2,938Member
    Well, the replies are very clear. Thank you to all that replied for the great info! I will not worry about this and will concentrate on emitters and warm floors. Very interesting about the oil vs diesel discussion. I am new to the oil world. My analyzer does oil, but I have some reading to do so I am confident it is adjusted properly. Very new Beckett burner.
    Technical Support Manager, HTP Comfort Solutions.
  • TimcoTimco Posts: 2,938Member
    hot_rod said:

    If you switch to low temperature radiant be sure to add boiler return protection to that boiler.

    Do a load calc, room by room. See how the current BB looks against the load. How low of a SWT can you run? The lower the boiler operating temperature, the more efficient. Any boiler :)

    LP as of this morning in SW Missouri $1.15, fuel oil $2.38
    Lp is the more common fuel in these real midwest part of the country. LP and oil prices seem to rise and fall together.


    Worth a read for all hydronics owners, or wana bees

    https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/file/idronics_25_na.pdf

    Somehow or someone just sent me a complete idronics Journal to my office...love your stuff. I had a sep 4 in my last house. I will be changing the piping arrangements to accommodate a low temp zone.
    Technical Support Manager, HTP Comfort Solutions.
  • lchmblchmb Posts: 2,953Member
    although i like oil I do question the savings you could see with LP. Price is a big question in this, but if you have lp appliances already, increased usage get's you a lesser price. Then add in radiant heat, and setting the boiler to a max output temp of say 120 degrees, and an on demand hw heater.. I think you could see substantial savings.. Then add in a whisper quiet system. Yes you must service the unit yearly, as you do with oil. And yes some parts are more expensive.. I think I'd start with a heat loss and system design before I give up on either option..
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 12,042Member
    Timco said:

    Well, the replies are very clear. Thank you to all that replied for the great info! I will not worry about this and will concentrate on emitters and warm floors. Very interesting about the oil vs diesel discussion. I am new to the oil world. My analyzer does oil, but I have some reading to do so I am confident it is adjusted properly. Very new Beckett burner.

    Spend some time on load calc and seeing how the boiler matches design load. Also how the emitters match the load and boiler.
    Some efficiency number to be concerned with
    Cycle Efficiency.
    Run time fraction = burner on÷total time
    5 minutes on 20 off = 20%
    Run fraction under load= heating requirement÷study state output
    40,000 load÷85,000 boiler output= 47%
    Realistically fixed speed boilers probably run in the mid to low 70% range.
    Standby loss? Is it in an area with outside combustion air being supplied?

    Remember the analyzer number is a point in time, usually measured under continuous firing condition.

    Drop below 30% and efficiencies are in the toilet. Most zoned, fixed speed boilers on load load days... see for yourself you could be in the low 70's even 60% actual efficiencies.

    The correct answer to your question involves some number crunching and knowledge of various fuel cost and price variation in your area.

    The modulating feature also, as these numbers show is a big function of efficiency.

    Modern Hydronics has a chapter explaining efficiencies of gas and oil fired boilers, the BNL graphs below are used for calculations..

    IF you could get a no cost mod con boiler :) buy off season LP, and do all the work yourself, hmmm.

    That being said the age of your equipment and a potential 20- 30 year lifecycle is a factor.

    Certainly look at reducing operating temperature, possibly for 80% of the heating season, the heat emitters and building efficiency are keys.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • DZoroDZoro Posts: 941Member
    Fill in your cost numbers in the heat calc that @Zman posted. That is a great tool to use to see what it can do for you and your situation. In my area, gas is 1/3 the cost of fuel oil in direct comparison.
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Posts: 1,760Member
    As for the comment that LP is heavier than air and will accumulate near the floor....Ummmm so will oil!

    I sold my oil boiler and tank (and installed it in the guys house) and bought my own 500 gal LP tank and the smallest mod/con I liked. I'm not looking back. LP is much cheaper here if you can buy it right (owning your tank helps!). Its also much cleaner and doesn't get your hands smelling like the Exxon Valdez when you change filters.

    But hey, we all have our gigs. I work on both oil and LP about 50/50. Vast majority of commercial is LP and 85% or residential is still oil.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC, and Controls
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Posts: 2,635Member
    > @Solid_Fuel_Man said:
    > As for the comment that LP is heavier than air and will accumulate near the floor....Ummmm so will oil!
    >
    >
    Yeah but you can toss a lit match into a bucket full of #2 and all you'll get is a wisp of smoke.
    LP is much cleaner? On your shirt cleaner, or emissions wise cleaner?
    If my hands (or any part of me, even the nether regions) looked or smelled like the Exxon Valdes, I wouldn't have kids. That's what gloves and scrub brushes are for. I'm sparkly.🎇
  • rick in Alaskarick in Alaska Posts: 906Member
    It definitely will depend on your fuel cost. Around here lp is $3.85, unless you rent the fuel tank from the supplier, and then it runs $7.25. Apparently the liability to them is high, so they add it in to the price. Lp is absolutely not an option around here unless you are allergic to fuel oil, and some people are. But if you can get it for anything coming close to half of fuel oil cost, then it would be something to consider.
    Rick
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,244Member
    edited August 1
    HVACNUT said:

    > @Solid_Fuel_Man said:

    > As for the comment that LP is heavier than air and will accumulate near the floor....Ummmm so will oil!

    >

    >

    Yeah but you can toss a lit match into a bucket full of #2 and all you'll get is a wisp of smoke.

    LP is much cleaner? On your shirt cleaner, or emissions wise cleaner?

    If my hands (or any part of me, even the nether regions) looked or smelled like the Exxon Valdes, I wouldn't have kids. That's what gloves and scrub brushes are for. I'm sparkly.🎇

    LPG is much cleaner than oil emissions wise and working with it.

    Run an LPG engine indoors and compare it to running a Diesel indoors. You tell me which runs cleaner. We all know how many Diesel forklifts are used indoors.

    I know, it's not a fair comparison as oil burners when working properly can burn much cleaner than an engine. But then again....so can LPG burners.

    Let me know the next time you cook some food over some #2 oil. Mmm...... :p

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 966Member
    ChrisJ said:

    HVACNUT said:

    > @Solid_Fuel_Man said:

    > As for the comment that LP is heavier than air and will accumulate near the floor....Ummmm so will oil!

    >

    >

    Yeah but you can toss a lit match into a bucket full of #2 and all you'll get is a wisp of smoke.

    LP is much cleaner? On your shirt cleaner, or emissions wise cleaner?

    If my hands (or any part of me, even the nether regions) looked or smelled like the Exxon Valdes, I wouldn't have kids. That's what gloves and scrub brushes are for. I'm sparkly.🎇

    LPG is much cleaner than oil emissions wise and working with it.

    Run an LPG engine indoors and compare it to running a Diesel indoors. You tell me which runs cleaner. We all know how many Diesel forklifts are used indoors.

    I know, it's not a fair comparison as oil burners when working properly can burn much cleaner than an engine. But then again....so can LPG burners.

    Let me know the next time you cook some food over some #2 oil. Mmm...... :p

    Really..........That is just a BAD comparison
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,244Member
    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    HVACNUT said:

    > @Solid_Fuel_Man said:

    > As for the comment that LP is heavier than air and will accumulate near the floor....Ummmm so will oil!

    >

    >

    Yeah but you can toss a lit match into a bucket full of #2 and all you'll get is a wisp of smoke.

    LP is much cleaner? On your shirt cleaner, or emissions wise cleaner?

    If my hands (or any part of me, even the nether regions) looked or smelled like the Exxon Valdes, I wouldn't have kids. That's what gloves and scrub brushes are for. I'm sparkly.🎇

    LPG is much cleaner than oil emissions wise and working with it.

    Run an LPG engine indoors and compare it to running a Diesel indoors. You tell me which runs cleaner. We all know how many Diesel forklifts are used indoors.

    I know, it's not a fair comparison as oil burners when working properly can burn much cleaner than an engine. But then again....so can LPG burners.

    Let me know the next time you cook some food over some #2 oil. Mmm...... :p

    Really..........That is just a BAD comparison
    Maybe it is, I'm always willing to admit if I'm wrong.
    Show me when #2 oil or Diesels burns as clean as LPG.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 966Member
    Never said it would!

    The OP is comparing efficiency...….96+ % to 85% when they need to compare the cost per BTU output!
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 966Member
    ChrisJ said:

    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    HVACNUT said:

    > @Solid_Fuel_Man said:

    > As for the comment that LP is heavier than air and will accumulate near the floor....Ummmm so will oil!

    >

    >

    Yeah but you can toss a lit match into a bucket full of #2 and all you'll get is a wisp of smoke.

    LP is much cleaner? On your shirt cleaner, or emissions wise cleaner?

    If my hands (or any part of me, even the nether regions) looked or smelled like the Exxon Valdes, I wouldn't have kids. That's what gloves and scrub brushes are for. I'm sparkly.🎇

    LPG is much cleaner than oil emissions wise and working with it.

    Run an LPG engine indoors and compare it to running a Diesel indoors. You tell me which runs cleaner. We all know how many Diesel forklifts are used indoors.

    I know, it's not a fair comparison as oil burners when working properly can burn much cleaner than an engine. But then again....so can LPG burners.

    Let me know the next time you cook some food over some #2 oil. Mmm...... :p

    Really..........That is just a BAD comparison
    Maybe it is, I'm always willing to admit if I'm wrong.
    Show me when #2 oil or Diesels burns as clean as LPG.
    and if you want clean burning...………………
    Electric from Nuclear...…….. Zero emission's!
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 12,042Member
    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    HVACNUT said:

    > @Solid_Fuel_Man said:

    > As for the comment that LP is heavier than air and will accumulate near the floor....Ummmm so will oil!

    >

    >

    Yeah but you can toss a lit match into a bucket full of #2 and all you'll get is a wisp of smoke.

    LP is much cleaner? On your shirt cleaner, or emissions wise cleaner?

    If my hands (or any part of me, even the nether regions) looked or smelled like the Exxon Valdes, I wouldn't have kids. That's what gloves and scrub brushes are for. I'm sparkly.🎇

    LPG is much cleaner than oil emissions wise and working with it.

    Run an LPG engine indoors and compare it to running a Diesel indoors. You tell me which runs cleaner. We all know how many Diesel forklifts are used indoors.

    I know, it's not a fair comparison as oil burners when working properly can burn much cleaner than an engine. But then again....so can LPG burners.

    Let me know the next time you cook some food over some #2 oil. Mmm...... :p

    Really..........That is just a BAD comparison
    Maybe it is, I'm always willing to admit if I'm wrong.
    Show me when #2 oil or Diesels burns as clean as LPG.
    and if you want clean burning...………………
    Electric from Nuclear...…….. Zero emission's!
    What about the uranium mining, enriching, transportation, and disposal of the waste? Certainly some emissions from the diesel powered equipment, and the coal fired plants that power the enrichment facilities?
    Nuclear energy needs fuel also, needs to be figured in the equation.
    Any of the above happening in your back yard? We all live downstream :)

    https://www.nuclear-power.net/nuclear-power-plant/nuclear-fuel/fuel-consumption-of-conventional-reactor/
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 966Member
    hot_rod said:

    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    HVACNUT said:

    > @Solid_Fuel_Man said:

    > As for the comment that LP is heavier than air and will accumulate near the floor....Ummmm so will oil!

    >

    >

    Yeah but you can toss a lit match into a bucket full of #2 and all you'll get is a wisp of smoke.

    LP is much cleaner? On your shirt cleaner, or emissions wise cleaner?

    If my hands (or any part of me, even the nether regions) looked or smelled like the Exxon Valdes, I wouldn't have kids. That's what gloves and scrub brushes are for. I'm sparkly.🎇

    LPG is much cleaner than oil emissions wise and working with it.

    Run an LPG engine indoors and compare it to running a Diesel indoors. You tell me which runs cleaner. We all know how many Diesel forklifts are used indoors.

    I know, it's not a fair comparison as oil burners when working properly can burn much cleaner than an engine. But then again....so can LPG burners.

    Let me know the next time you cook some food over some #2 oil. Mmm...... :p

    Really..........That is just a BAD comparison
    Maybe it is, I'm always willing to admit if I'm wrong.
    Show me when #2 oil or Diesels burns as clean as LPG.
    and if you want clean burning...………………
    Electric from Nuclear...…….. Zero emission's!
    What about the uranium mining, enriching, transportation, and disposal of the waste? Certainly some emissions from the diesel powered equipment, and the coal fired plants that power the enrichment facilities?
    Nuclear energy needs fuel also, needs to be figured in the equation.
    Any of the above happening in your back yard? We all live downstream :)

    https://www.nuclear-power.net/nuclear-power-plant/nuclear-fuel/fuel-consumption-of-conventional-reactor/
    Im just replying to the statement Cleaner burning Fuels.

    Global Warming Potential is a whole different discussion!
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,244Member
    pecmsg said:

    hot_rod said:

    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    HVACNUT said:

    > @Solid_Fuel_Man said:

    > As for the comment that LP is heavier than air and will accumulate near the floor....Ummmm so will oil!

    >

    >

    Yeah but you can toss a lit match into a bucket full of #2 and all you'll get is a wisp of smoke.

    LP is much cleaner? On your shirt cleaner, or emissions wise cleaner?

    If my hands (or any part of me, even the nether regions) looked or smelled like the Exxon Valdes, I wouldn't have kids. That's what gloves and scrub brushes are for. I'm sparkly.🎇

    LPG is much cleaner than oil emissions wise and working with it.

    Run an LPG engine indoors and compare it to running a Diesel indoors. You tell me which runs cleaner. We all know how many Diesel forklifts are used indoors.

    I know, it's not a fair comparison as oil burners when working properly can burn much cleaner than an engine. But then again....so can LPG burners.

    Let me know the next time you cook some food over some #2 oil. Mmm...... :p

    Really..........That is just a BAD comparison
    Maybe it is, I'm always willing to admit if I'm wrong.
    Show me when #2 oil or Diesels burns as clean as LPG.
    and if you want clean burning...………………
    Electric from Nuclear...…….. Zero emission's!
    What about the uranium mining, enriching, transportation, and disposal of the waste? Certainly some emissions from the diesel powered equipment, and the coal fired plants that power the enrichment facilities?
    Nuclear energy needs fuel also, needs to be figured in the equation.
    Any of the above happening in your back yard? We all live downstream :)

    https://www.nuclear-power.net/nuclear-power-plant/nuclear-fuel/fuel-consumption-of-conventional-reactor/
    Im just replying to the statement Cleaner burning Fuels.

    Global Warming Potential is a whole different discussion!
    I do not believe nuclear waste is considered to have any roll in global warming.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Posts: 11,466Member
    ChrisJ said:

    pecmsg said:

    hot_rod said:

    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    HVACNUT said:

    > @Solid_Fuel_Man said:

    > As for the comment that LP is heavier than air and will accumulate near the floor....Ummmm so will oil!

    >

    >

    Yeah but you can toss a lit match into a bucket full of #2 and all you'll get is a wisp of smoke.

    LP is much cleaner? On your shirt cleaner, or emissions wise cleaner?

    If my hands (or any part of me, even the nether regions) looked or smelled like the Exxon Valdes, I wouldn't have kids. That's what gloves and scrub brushes are for. I'm sparkly.🎇

    LPG is much cleaner than oil emissions wise and working with it.

    Run an LPG engine indoors and compare it to running a Diesel indoors. You tell me which runs cleaner. We all know how many Diesel forklifts are used indoors.

    I know, it's not a fair comparison as oil burners when working properly can burn much cleaner than an engine. But then again....so can LPG burners.

    Let me know the next time you cook some food over some #2 oil. Mmm...... :p

    Really..........That is just a BAD comparison
    Maybe it is, I'm always willing to admit if I'm wrong.
    Show me when #2 oil or Diesels burns as clean as LPG.
    and if you want clean burning...………………
    Electric from Nuclear...…….. Zero emission's!
    What about the uranium mining, enriching, transportation, and disposal of the waste? Certainly some emissions from the diesel powered equipment, and the coal fired plants that power the enrichment facilities?
    Nuclear energy needs fuel also, needs to be figured in the equation.
    Any of the above happening in your back yard? We all live downstream :)

    https://www.nuclear-power.net/nuclear-power-plant/nuclear-fuel/fuel-consumption-of-conventional-reactor/
    Im just replying to the statement Cleaner burning Fuels.

    Global Warming Potential is a whole different discussion!
    I do not believe nuclear waste is considered to have any roll in global warming.
    And, had we actively pursued the science and engineering of nuclear power -- both for the reactors but perhaps at least as important for the safe and permanent (really -- like a blllion years (not a typo) stability) management and storage of nuclear waste we'd have the technology operating by now. But no. The Sky is falling! We'll all blow up! We'll all glow in the dark!

    Humph.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Posts: 2,635Member
    > @ChrisJ said:
    >
    > I do not believe nuclear waste is considered to have any roll in global warming.

    Ever hear of a nuclear winter?
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Posts: 1,760Member
    It all depends on the cost of the fuel, and more likely the fuel which your supplier really wants to sell.

    I'd rather clean the coffee grounds and scrub an LP fire chamber than one with oil.... No one is gonna argue with that!

    Yes I wear gloves all the time too.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC, and Controls
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 12,042Member
    pecmsg said:

    hot_rod said:

    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    pecmsg said:

    ChrisJ said:

    HVACNUT said:

    > @Solid_Fuel_Man said:

    > As for the comment that LP is heavier than air and will accumulate near the floor....Ummmm so will oil!

    >

    >

    Yeah but you can toss a lit match into a bucket full of #2 and all you'll get is a wisp of smoke.

    LP is much cleaner? On your shirt cleaner, or emissions wise cleaner?

    If my hands (or any part of me, even the nether regions) looked or smelled like the Exxon Valdes, I wouldn't have kids. That's what gloves and scrub brushes are for. I'm sparkly.🎇

    LPG is much cleaner than oil emissions wise and working with it.

    Run an LPG engine indoors and compare it to running a Diesel indoors. You tell me which runs cleaner. We all know how many Diesel forklifts are used indoors.

    I know, it's not a fair comparison as oil burners when working properly can burn much cleaner than an engine. But then again....so can LPG burners.

    Let me know the next time you cook some food over some #2 oil. Mmm...... :p

    Really..........That is just a BAD comparison
    Maybe it is, I'm always willing to admit if I'm wrong.
    Show me when #2 oil or Diesels burns as clean as LPG.
    and if you want clean burning...………………
    Electric from Nuclear...…….. Zero emission's!
    What about the uranium mining, enriching, transportation, and disposal of the waste? Certainly some emissions from the diesel powered equipment, and the coal fired plants that power the enrichment facilities?
    Nuclear energy needs fuel also, needs to be figured in the equation.
    Any of the above happening in your back yard? We all live downstream :)

    https://www.nuclear-power.net/nuclear-power-plant/nuclear-fuel/fuel-consumption-of-conventional-reactor/
    Im just replying to the statement Cleaner burning Fuels.

    Global Warming Potential is a whole different discussion!
    Clean burning nuclear??? Only if you can run them without uranium. Emissions from the entire process, rock to electricity :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,244Member
    > @HVACNUT said:
    > > @ChrisJ said:
    > >
    > > I do not believe nuclear waste is considered to have any roll in global warming.
    >
    > Ever hear of a nuclear winter?
    >

    Yeah.....
    I fail to see the relation to properly running nuclear power plants and their waste?

    @Jamie Hall Thoughts?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Posts: 11,466Member
    "Nuclear Winter" refers to the possible after effects of a global nuclear war -- at which point we probably won't care, but that's beside the point. It would be quite likely, as if folks start lobbing rockets at each other in any sizable quantity there will be a good deal of dust kicked up high into the stratosphere -- and that would cool things down quickly and effectively.

    There is no relationship to a properly running nuclear powerplant. For that matter, a nuclear powerplant can't detonate. No mushroom clouds, sorry. What it can do is melt down if certain conditions are met -- and various designs are subject to the possibility in varying degrees (some designs are almost impossible to get to melt down, even with the three stooges running them).

    Nuclear waste has no role in global warming. As I mentioned above, the technology required to render it safe exists; the engineering to make that real has not been pursued as it is not politically correct to even mention that it exists, never mind develop it.

    @hot_rod does have a point -- nuclear power is not 100% environmentally friendly; there is the problem of mining the uranium. There is also the problem of cooling the powerplants; this is more or less of a problem depending on where they are located (in favourable situations, the waste heat is a useful byproduct -- ask the Israelis). That said, however, there is no energy source which is 100% environmentally friendly. Not one. That is, assuming one actually considers the total life cycle and all the impacts, and not just one aspect of it.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
Sign In or Register to comment.

Welcome

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!