Wireless sensors - solution or not?

steam2pipe

A plumber told us that the boiler (serving 10 units with steam heat) didn't have enough enough run-time to heat up the 3rd floor radiators that did heat up once when the boiler was on for hours and hours. The plumber suggested moving the thermostat to the basement and installing three wireless sensors to give to different units that do not get heat. The sensors would then take the average and tell the boiler to turn on or off. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

Jamie Hall

It's one way to address the symptom. It would be better, however, to address the actual problem -- which is most likely caused by inadequate and incorrect venting, both main venting and individual radiator settings. Then see about changing the thermostats

nicholas bonham-carter

Check the main venting first. Adequately sized vents will enable all the pipes to fill with steam first, and then simultaneously the radiators.—NBC

steam2pipe

Thank you so much for your suggestions everyone.

EBEBRATT-Ed

What @Jamie Hall & @nicholas bonham-carter said.

Shouldn't need to have the boilers run for hours to get heat. Pictures of the boiler and piping may help.

Fix venting and maybe skim the boiler

Dave in QCA

By your username, I'm guessing that you probably have a 2-pipe system. Is that correct? If so, do you know what type it is? Dunham, Trane, Hoffman, Moline, etc. They all have their unique characteristics. In a 2-pipe system, there are a number of things that can be done to improve steam distribution. When things are working right, you will have steam showing up at every radiator at the same time. In moderate weather, only a portion of every radiator will heat up, and they should all heat the same, proportionally, for example 25% heated.
If you can, take a picture of a few of the radiators, showing views of the supply connection and the outlet connection too. If you have a 1-pipe system, show a picture of a vent. Are all the vents the same type?

steam2pipe

We have a 1-pipe and 2-pipe non-steam trap system serving 10 units with steam heat and 2 in basement heated by hot water pipes (requiring insulation in some cases for overheating). I don't know what type it is. I will ask the plumber the next time he is in the building. We have, though, the exact scene you describe. In very cold weather (when all vents and valves are repaired and the boiler is skimmed regularly) all columns on the radiators heat up. In moderately cold weather, only a partial of the radiators heat up. Some residents consider that the radiators when not heating up (in moderately cold weather) all the way indicates that they are broken or not functioning properly. I don't have a camera to send photos. I do know that the vents are not all the same type though most are. If all pipes in both the 2-pipe and 1-pipe system lead to the main pipe and vent from the boiler, could there be a crack in a pipe in a wall, for example, hidden from us causing a leak and messing up the steam reaching the radiator?

Neild5

My condo building has a wireless sensor system, there are 20 units on 3 floors. If you go that route check carefully how it is rated. The installer told us it was good for 3 floors and put it in the basement, we had all sorts of trouble with it losing the signal. When I called the mfg the tech support said it was good for 3 floors, the floor the system was on and one above and one below. We had to move the controller into the stairway at the 2nd floor level to maintain wireless contact.

Jamie Hall

@steam2pipe -- the question isn't are the radiators heating all the way across, it's are the spaces coming up to temperature? If the space is warm as it should be, the radiator is doing it's job.

In milder weather it would be uncommon for the radiators to be heated all the way across. Steam doesn't work that way. What you are describing is perfectly normal behavior... although you may have trouble convincing the tenants of that.

mikeg2015

Yes steam radiators dont heat all the way across. Only a vacuum system will do that, and still only in cooler weather. Vacuum system will also tend ot send steam to the coldest radiators and be somewhat self balancing. A warm radiator has less affinity for vapor because a cold metal condenses steam more rapidly, and draws steam towards it as the steam condenses.

Could use TRV’s on the overheated rooms. But can run into issues there too.

Honeywell Visionpro sensors will allow up to I think 8 remote sensors to be averaged together.

Dave in QCA

Ignore my previous questions about what type of 2-pipe system you have. You have a 2-pipe vented. I had read that, but forgot about that part of your post before I got back to it.

As others have already stated, good fast venting of the mains and SLOW venting of the radiators is necessary to get even steam distribution. If you have heat-timer varivalves on your radiators, they are way to fast. A radiator with a fast vent will turn it into a thief. It will rob WAY more than its share of steam, often time leaving nothing for other radiators. In fact, if you put fast vents on all of the radiators, usually what will happen is that some will overheat and a few will get nothing.

You just have to teach tenants about the radiators. I have to deal with it too. Usually, its the new tenant that is expecting something different to happen, and thinks something is happen. I try to explain and if I get a blank stare, I ask a question. Would you be happy if you're apartment was 85 degrees? They quickly say no. And, I follow with, "well, if your radiator got HOT all they way across in this weather, your apartment would be 85."

steam2pipe

Thanks for all your comments. Our Heating Committee is back discussing all of this again. First, as a FYI -It turns out that the Master Plumber told us that we have a 1 pipe system only and the 2 pipes on some radiators are not indicative of a 2 pipe system. He also said we shouldn't get sensors after all. He said the thermostat should remain where it is (next to a very large window cracked open at the top...I'm serious...) in a hallway. That one thermostat will feed 10 units steam heat. However, the issue is that now that all valves and vents are fixed on all radiators, the hallway radiators will heat up and signal the thermostat that the building is warm enough while some areas of the building are not warm enough. Their solution? The window (open at the top) tells the thermostat it is too cold and then that fights the hallway heat and is supposed to make the system work for all units (not my logic by any means). I think that will only serve to confuse the thermostat, cause the boiler to run continually in very cold weather, and not fix the problem. The Master Plumber's solution to the 2 basement units that overheat when the thermostat pumps on so high at night is more insulation on the basement unit pipes that are hot (from hot water heat in pipes that these units get). However, there are no more pipes left to cover. It has been done already. Does this make any sense to anyone out there? How can I convince our condo owners to relocate the thermostat away from an open window if the Master Plumber thinks it is fine to stay where it is? Am I wrong to think it doesn't make any sense? Wireless sensors are out. I am searching for common sense instead.

STEVEusaPA

Convince the association that the master plumber may not be the right guy for this problem and you need a steam expert in there. There are many threads on this site where the steam gurus fixed steam systems giving owners superior comfort and saving them tons of money.

ratio

steam2pipe said:

… I am searching for common sense instead.

Let me know if you find any. I'm quite interested in locating some.

steam2pipe

Thanks. I will do my best to try to convince the association that we need a steam expert in this building.

KC_Jones

steam2pipe said:

However, the issue is that now that all valves and vents are fixed on all radiators, the hallway radiators will heat up and signal the thermostat that the building is warm enough while some areas of the building are not warm enough.

You don't need new vents, you need new PROPERLY SIZED vents.
There are 2 components to this. What you describe is classic imbalance, I agree with the others your "master plumber" is out of his realm. Also you may be buying more new vents if all the ones you bought are a fixed size, and are the wrong size.

KC_Jones

Also, I would suggest sending a link to this thread to the committee as they will most likely get better information from the people on this website than they get from the current contractor.

Where are you located? We may know someone competent who can help.

clammy

In the way past I have installed white Rodger temperature average stats using 3 sensor tied into a basement mounted t stat . The main reason being that the t sat was mounted in the last furthest apartment they where using a heat timer which was causing over runs of the boiler and baking the occupants out and causing open windows .they did have the heat timer controlller adjusted many times and it still sucked .of course this was after about a month and half of de knuckle heading and re vents the mains re connecting drips on the mains that where removed and water sealing mains that dripped into other mains stopping and proper cicrcularion . When all that was done everybody got heat at the same time except when compared to real time ( remote sensors temperature)and where and what the heat timer had as a run time after established circulation it was eye opening being after heat established on heat timer and according to the required run time we found the boiler would short cycle till the heat timer run time was done if remembered correctly it was like 20 minutes of short cycling .i disconnected the heat timer and tied in temp average stat and watched the stat shut the boiler off as heat was established according to heat timer .worse case apartment on opposite end of building was 72 .in the first month the gas bill was cut in half by the tune of about 1700 bucks .the building owner could not believe it after close to 2 or 3 years of bs from over a dozen plumbers and steam guys and the installation of f and t traps and crap which I tossed and a condensate pump also this was a single pipe system no need for any of the crap installed a vaporstat and a ton of main venting and also a ton of insulation on piping .the boiler was piped so so and could have used a 2 stage valve but there’s only so much a building owner will do and there was a ton of de knuckleheading .just about any steam system can be fixed to operate properly but it will never happen if the owners are not will to pay and are looking at a cheap miricale fix in less then a hour you are sadly mistaken it will never happen .on mixed systems pressure in ounces is your friend quick main venting on your single pipe pipe side with properly sized raditor vents also . And the same goes for your 2 pipe side vent the mains and or use crossover traps to vent the mains quickly .also in most of the 1 pipe combi 2 pipe systems near boiler piping is extremely important dehydrated dry steam will help your system operate properly oversized headers and slow existing velocity will ensure that your system operates as it should .you should walk your systems and check for condensate drips and crossover traps also main vents all extremely important loads of larger single and 2 pipe systems have drips installed in the mains mid point to remove excessive condensate when removed up build up to much condensate and it will slow down steam distrubition and mid line drips will help but when removed will cause issues on larger systems u will usually see them at about a 75 to 100 ft distances from my experiences they may have traps or may drip into a wet return or have a u tube water seal and rise back into a dry return on a 2 pipe system . Peace and food luck clammy

BobC

@clammy Sometimes the truth hurts, very well said

Bob