Sweating in ball valves 1.5" , disassemble before sweating?

Charlie from wmass

@Gordy I got that. I was just making an observation.

Intplm.

Shame......this skill of soldering is surely fading. Hope it won't be lost completely.

Gordy

I know you were Charlie

Charlie from wmass

"Skill of soldering" always makes me laugh. I was soldering up to 1 1/2" pipe at age 12. Before that I was restricted to the pipe threader as it was safer. I is not wiping ferrule for water mains with lead pipe. Copper soldered systems were the pex of their day.

Leonard

Seems some ball valves are made of a brass alloy that likes to corrode. What brand of valve do you think will last for the long term (> 20+ years)?

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What flux do you recommend? I've always had some trouble with regular flux (vasoline looking zinc chloride types), the C-flux by rectoseal works GREAT.

How long do I have to flush to get chlorides out? Flushing will be a problem. Once soldered in flush water would have to go thru baseboards, all downstream joints are soldered or threaded, no unions.

After soldering first side I can put rag on a stick and wipe inside of joint. Way system is set up I'ld have to flow clean after 2nd solder joint of valve.

Is there a neutralizer I should added to water? Currently CI boiler, no stainless in system, well ---- ball of valve is stainless.

hot_rod

Unless you cut a joint open, you never really know how well it soldered.

When I took my journeymen test in Montana, we calculated and soldered a few offsets with 1" copper. The proctors cut open several joints with a bandsaw, pounded them apart to check the joint.
It is quite possible to have spots or gaps in joints, most would hold some don't

I'll sometimes unsolder fittings to save them for home use and scrap the tube. I've found plenty of not 100% joints over the years, when you disassemble. Most are improper prep, over-fluxed, or over-heating I suspect.

Charlie from wmass

I have had joints people forgot to solder and they did not leak the laco flux they used held them together. Lol.

Charlie from wmass

I vote for Utility Flux. Btw

EBEBRATT-Ed

Ugh @Charlie from wmass Hate utility flux that's what my shop buys for us. Usually corrodes the outside of the joint. But use what works for you LOL

Me I vote for "no corrode" from rectorseal. I pick up my own at the supply house and send the other stuff to the shop! Like the tinning flux but their regular is ok.

But I think I forgot how to solder our shop propress's everything now

ChrisJ

This is the flux I've been using for around 9 years now.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Hercules-10616-Climate-Smooth-Soldering-Paste-1-2-lb

ChrisJ

I'm still waiting to see if anyone uses Rubyfluid flux in plumbing.

I used it to repair a Model A radiator years ago and it seemed to work extremely well. But, I can't remember where I had heard to use that, or why it seems like no one uses it for sweating pipes.

It's a thin liquid that spreads on easily with a rag or brush.

Voyager

hot_rod said:

Unless you cut a joint open, you never really know how well it soldered.

When I took my journeymen test in Montana, we calculated and soldered a few offsets with 1" copper. The proctors cut open several joints with a bandsaw, pounded them apart to check the joint.
It is quite possible to have spots or gaps in joints, most would hold some don't

I'll sometimes unsolder fittings to save them for home use and scrap the tube. I've found plenty of not 100% joints over the years, when you disassemble. Most are improper prep, over-fluxed, or over-heating I suspect.

What was a passing coverage level? I read somewhere that 70% coverage of the joint was considered acceptable during a postmortem. As long as the 30% doesn’t include a channel from inside to outside.

Intplm.

Charlie from wmass said:

"Skill of soldering" always makes me laugh. I was soldering up to 1 1/2" pipe at age 12. Before that I was restricted to the pipe threader as it was safer. I is not wiping ferrule for water mains with lead pipe. Copper soldered systems were the pex of their day.

So was I . But with pex tubing and propress I'm sure you can tell where I'm coming from.

Intplm.

@Leonard What flux do I recommend? For someone who is just starting out. I suggest "self tinning flux" made by Nokarode. It changes color when it's ready to have solder applied, does not smoke a lot, does not go bad easily, and I have found it to be the easiest to work with.

Charlie from wmass

Utility flux I specifically use because I was sick if the green mess laco flux makes. Lol @EBEBRATT-Ed . Are you sure you are not thinking Laco?

ChrisJ

The real skill is in brazing

Leonard

Have brazed joints of thick sheet metal, welding is trickier, the work melts.
Have silver soldered a sharder tap tube on an OLD compressor charging bolt to attach gauges. (used Home Depot propane /air turbo torch)

I haven't brazed tubing yet.

Leonard

Can anyone tell me a good brandname for long life ball valve 1.25 inch dia, for isolation. FW Web had Apollo and Pure Pro (1/2 the price). Both look same color of brass.

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Had an interesting day. Went to pick up circulator after waiting 2 days for it. Box looked 40 years old, pretzel broken gasket and frozen shaft. Went to FW Web, HUGE warehouse. Had 8 new looking boxes sitting on shelf, same price. It came home with me.

Intplm.

I have used both valves. I have no preference. But if you plan on turning the valve a lot, maybe go with the Apollo.?

Odd circulator return. Have had plenty of bad box issues, but not always the product damage. Yikes!

Leonard

Need to install circulator today. I have new flanges. How hard do you think will be to UNSCREW 60 year old flanges off old iron pipe ( 1.5 inch size)? I assume I'll need to use red/yellow hot heat, I've used heat to remove rusted exhaust studs from car manifolds.

What's your experience? I need to save threads on old pipe. (Flanges don't look cast iron, are 2 pieces welded together).

I have 4 propane/air turbo torches, ~ 50k BTU driveway ice melting torch (flame = 3inch x 2ft), and oxy-acteylene brazing/welding torch (4 ft tanks).
Also have larger pipe wrenches ~ 15 " and ~ 30 inch long

Also what do you recommend on pipe thread when I assembly, thread sealant or never-seize ( I assume sealant)

Intplm.

Why create more work for yourself ? If the flanges look good are not deformed or leaking or damaged in some way, do not change them.

Leonard

Flanges look pretty rusty. edges at least are crumbly. Red Flange gasket has been weeping for few years. I'll see more when I get it apart, back up plan is install circulator now, do flanges in summer. But buying parts now before suppliers close I'm assuming worst case. I'm in cold NH wants to run tonight one way or another

Intplm.

If you scrape and clean the flanges real well, you should be ok without having to change them.

Leonard

That's plan A, just want to have a plan B ready.
Do you think I'll be able to unscrew the flanges if I get them red or bright yellow hot and put 30 inch pipe wrench on them....without damaging threads. I assume I can, your experience please....

Also what should I seal threads with neverseize or rectorseal #5 pipe thread sealent. I assume sealent.

I brought in the oxy-acetylene tanks and reg/torch from garage to warm up. 25 degs outside. I lucked out, hoses will reach cellar from 1-st floor.

ChrisJ

Yellow hot?

Leonard

Yes yellow, almost sparking white hot. In another life dad and I ran car repair/sales garage. 3ft tall acetylene tank, 4 ft oxygen tank, Harris D85 welding/brazing torch.

On car cast iron manifold I heated to sparking white hot (almost surface melt) to remove paper thin rusted exhaust studs. And put wet rag on studs to maximize temperature (expansion) different between threaded manifold and threaded stud

Intplm.

Before you use the "smoke wrench" to heat and take them off, try using two wrenches. One wrench as a backer, the other to turn it free without heating it up. But remember, you might not need to remove them at all.

Rector seal number 5 . A tried and true product. Also Teflon tape.

There's this newer Teflon tape made by blue monster. I like it a lot .
Warning! Read the directions on the blue monster. I didn't, and ended up cracking a few fittings when tightening fittings. They say only three wraps around. I was wrapping more then three.

Leonard

Went to buy other parts, took longer than I expected. I'll work on it tomorrow, don't want to finish at 3AM. Suspect I'll have to grind/file/sand circ casting flanges flat ( heavy rust last time)

I 'll try the 2 pipe wrenches first , but suspect I'll need heat. I find on cars water and iron don't play together well. I find heat works great with rusted stuff on cars, or freeze spray for things you can't heat (rubber brake line fittings)

Is there a sealant that will also lubricate pipe threads long term. When I worked on grandma's 2 inch iron sewer drain pipes I was amazed at how easily they unthreaded.

ChrisJ

When in doubt, heat it out.

Charlie from wmass

I prefer to cut the flange in close to the threads and drive a small cold chisel into the slot and spin it off by hand. Lol

Leonard

Thank you. I just never tried loosening anything this large. Figure with water it'll be rusted in TIGHT. Nice to hear from the experts here who have done it many times before.

I was bit worried about cutting flange. I did something similar to get a outer wheel bearing raceway out of car rear axle. Was hard to see inside the tube and I cut just a bit too deep and had trouble with tiny oil leak.

Charlie from wmass

Well you have to be careful. But I don't like using torches in houses for heating ferrous metals

Intplm.

@Charlie from wmass has a good idea. If you have a die grinder, that much easier.
The thing is. Sometimes with a smoke wrench you can unintentionally heat up joints close by and damage them without even knowing it till you put the system back to normal, only to discover you have another leak.
You have plenty to go on. Go ahead and do what you feel most comfortable with. The way your going it will turn out fine.

Leonard

I hear you, fire risk. But I'm more concerned about cast elbow above it. Even with back up hammer, I crack that and I'm in deep COLD trouble. It's winter.

Charlie from wmass

I use a hacksaw or sawzall grinders cause sparks and since I had surgery to remove metal from my eye I avoid them.

Leonard

As a kid I did body work at dad's garage. Got a tiny sliver of metal stuck in surface of my eye twice, was only a speck. Once I was grinding sheet metal of car and happened to have eye along spin plane of buffer sanding disk. Another time I was slowly drilling cast iron of a 3hp motor base foot, 700 rpm, 1/2 inch drill bit. Now I always use safty glasses.

I remember safty training video, you only have 1 chance to save your eyesight, or you may retire early with a seeing eye dog.

Intplm.

Yup! Happened to me too. AND I WAS WEARING SAFETY GLASSES !

Leonard

Need the side shields. And some fit to skin better than others

I remember I was making some new high pressure stuff at work, 6500 psi. Security dept was also responsible for safty, guy at guard desk said these safty glasses will protect you from anything in here. I just looked at him. He didn't know what I was working on, it was new. Not sure my body would stop it.

SuperTech

I would try to put as much leverage on the flanges as possible with a long pipe wrench and cheater extension. Soak it with PB blaster beforehand. If you have to cut it I would just cut the pipe it's attached to and remove it with a pipe wrench and replace it with copper.

I really hope you are planning on installing isolation flanges. Circulator flanges with out isolation valves are useless. Webstone even makes isolation flanges with built in purge stations.

Leonard

Though about circ isolation flanges, but changes total pipe length, need to repipe. Not eager to get into that in winter heating season when I NEED it running every day.

Circ is leaking a bit more now, I'll likely only change it and maybe flanges right now. Isolation valves to rest of house can wait till summer. I don;t mind draining boiler to work on it, bleeding baseboards is the pain. Everything in the way. Wife moved in recently, 2 households of stuff in one house.