Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.

If you've found help here, check back in to let us know how everything worked out.
It's a great way to thank those who helped you.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.

Sweating in ball valves 1.5" , disassemble before sweating?

LeonardLeonard Posts: 724Member
Dumb question, but should I disassemble ball valves before soldering them on copper pipe, so plastic seal parts doesn't get damaged from heat. Ball valves are to isolate boiler from rest of house FHW, to make future repairs easier.
«134

Comments

  • Danny ScullyDanny Scully Posts: 1,098Member
    edited March 4
    No what you should do @Leonard is...return all your sweat fittings and get propress :lol: but In all honestly no you just want to keep the valve open while you solder and make sure you’re using the right tip.
  • Intplm.Intplm. Posts: 447Member
    @Leonard Never took a ball valve apart to solder it. Not sure they come apart? Have soldered sizes 1/2"-4". They are very tough to damage. You should be fine.
  • Intplm.Intplm. Posts: 447Member
    At least not all types come apart😏
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 5,289Member
    Just use a big enough tip and solder it reasonably quickly. Don't want to keep the heat on it forever.
  • LeonardLeonard Posts: 724Member
    I have a couple propane/air turbo torches , that should heat it quickly.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 9,516Member
    I've always been told half open, half closed during soldering.

    Never heard of taking a ball valve apart to solder it.............

    Leonard, is this another "I heard one guy, who talked to another guy, who knew this girl who had a brother who was married to a girl who's brother always said....." ? :p
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Posts: 5,459Member
    I spray Thermo-Block on them and wrap with wet rag, probably overkill in most people's mind.
    Don't aim the flame towards the ball part, only the female ends.
    Often tighten the packing on the stem after. I remove the handle anyway so it is a simple process.
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,143Member
    They do make 3 piece sweat ball valves, crazy expensive. Probably more for high temperature silver solder applications.

    Just hot enough to draw in the solder, then remove heat.

    With low lead valves heat the copper tube and valve evenly to get best results.

    I am of the opinion 1/2 open also, when sweating.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • woodrowwoodrow Posts: 18Member
    use ips ball vaves and solder your adapters first
  • GordyGordy Posts: 9,251Member
  • GordyGordy Posts: 9,251Member
  • Larry WeingartenLarry Weingarten Posts: 1,417Member
    Hello, I'm with @woodrow. Our water is not all that good and even ball valves fail in time. I like to make replacement a little less painful. ;)

    Yours, Larry
  • LeonardLeonard Posts: 724Member
    edited March 5
    When I've soldered 1/2 inch valves of rubber washer type I've taken them apart to protect rubber and seal from heat. Always went fine.

    First time I've soldered such a large valve 1.25 inch dia pipe. I assume I'll I can use a propane/air turbo torch.... right ?

    I noticed in video they used acetylene/air torch, don't have that.
    I do have oxy-acetylene torch in garage for brazing/welding, but likely too hot.
  • Larry WeingartenLarry Weingarten Posts: 1,417Member
    Hello, If you have mapp gas, that would help. ;)

    Yours, Larry
  • SuperTechSuperTech Posts: 937Member
    Yeah I prefer to use an acetylene torch on the larger stuff, but a Mapp gas torch would work too. I would only use the propane for the smaller 1/2" and 3/4" stuff.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 5,289Member
    Propane is fine with a big enough tip. If your using a homeowner torch with a bottle screwed on the tip you will struggle with propane. You can pick up a Mapp gas bottle at the hardware store
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 9,516Member
    > @EBEBRATT-Ed said:
    > Propane is fine with a big enough tip. If your using a homeowner torch with a bottle screwed on the tip you will struggle with propane. You can pick up a Mapp gas bottle at the hardware store

    I'm betting 3 of those cheapy homeowner torches at the same time would do good though. If you had a way to pull that off
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Posts: 5,459Member
    There is another posting about torches for large copper.
    I mentioned the swivel head Turbotorch with Mapp gas does a good job. Not a large investment for a tool that works good.

    I used that torch on 1 1/2" valves with no problem.
    Male adaptors add up in money, 4 would buy another ball valve at that size.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 9,516Member
    JUGHNE said:

    There is another posting about torches for large copper.
    I mentioned the swivel head Turbotorch with Mapp gas does a good job. Not a large investment for a tool that works good.

    I used that torch on 1 1/2" valves with no problem.
    Male adaptors add up in money, 4 would buy another ball valve at that size.

    I've done an 1 1/4" valve with a Bernzomatic MAPP torch, the one with the hose rather than the bottle screwed to it.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • KC_JonesKC_Jones Posts: 4,053Member
    ChrisJ said:

    JUGHNE said:

    There is another posting about torches for large copper.
    I mentioned the swivel head Turbotorch with Mapp gas does a good job. Not a large investment for a tool that works good.

    I used that torch on 1 1/2" valves with no problem.
    Male adaptors add up in money, 4 would buy another ball valve at that size.

    I've done an 1 1/4" valve with a Bernzomatic MAPP torch, the one with the hose rather than the bottle screwed to it.
    I did a 1 1/2" on my hartford loop with the same setup as Chris. I won't say it was perfect, but it worked just fine.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10202744301871904.1073741828.1330391881&type=1&l=c34ad6ee78
  • GroundUpGroundUp Posts: 452Member
    I was taught to leave the valves either fully open or fully closed when sweating. I prefer closed after years of it, looking at the plastic packing inside. Having them half open or even fully open would allow the packing to deform if the body were overheated and potentially never seal completely. With the ball closed, any deformity only deforms to the contour of the ball and does not allow any leakage. As for torch, there often comes times where I'm too lazy to run out to the truck for an acetylene torch so I make do with the MAPP tank and have done more 3" sweat joints with it than I care to admit. 90% of the heat should be directed to the pipe anyway, so overheating the valve should almost never be a concern if you're decent at sweating. Of course those instances where you're standing on your head in a pile of rubble with glycol running from your wrist and dripping off your ear don't count
  • LeonardLeonard Posts: 724Member
    edited March 6
    I'll buy some ~ 2pound mapp gas tanks. Have several propane/air turbo torches, ( BernzOmatic TS700 and TX504 TurboTorch Exstream) I assume those will be ok , right? Likely will use only one torch, maybe 2, counting solder need 3 hands.

    For flux I've found one with fine solder particals in it. Works the BEST I've ever tried. C-flux by rectoseal. Contains :ethanolamine hydrogen chloride, zinc chloride, zinc oxide, ammonium chloride, tin and antimony. What's your opinion on this one for long life of solder joint to valves? I'm thinking corrosion of "brass" valve.

    What brand of ball valve do you recommend? I want long life > 20 years.

    8 years ago I put some home depot 1/2 inch valves (rubber seat) on potable hot water lines and they are developing white barnical corrosion spots on outside. Was a lighter shade of brass, guessing it's the cheap brass that corrodes easily. There are ~ 2 basic alloys of brass/broze. Heard they used wrong alloy on a ship "manhole" cover and the zinc? in it quickly corroded leaving weak microscopic "swiss cheese" copper structure.
  • Intplm.Intplm. Posts: 447Member
    Soldering was a little easier in the 50/50 solder era.
    Prepped properly, you could solder a inch and a half fitting so the solder could flow "up" into the fitting installed vertically with no down drips of solder. And this was done with a soft flame acetylene torch.
    The thing is you really do not need to go to too much trouble.

    Soldering the diameter ,heating one point at a time. Dividing heat like a slice of pie. One slice at a time. Fill solder at each slice then heat to the next slice till you have a visually complete joint.
    This is a explanation I have used for soldering large diameter valves and fittings. Not so much for smaller diameter.

    Don't ever disassemble a ball valve to solder it. Ball valves are not designed for that. Those threads are fine machined threads and are susceptible to cross threading. And the internals of some brand valves can even fall out of the valve body!

    Putting a ball valve at half closed, half open is a good idea if you feel you might over heat. This can help to stop the delron seal between the ball and the valve body from deforming.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 9,516Member
    > @Intplm. said:
    > Soldering was a little easier in the 50/50 solder era.
    > Prepped properly, you could solder a inch and a half fitting so the solder could flow "up" into the fitting installed vertically with no down drips of solder. And this was done with a soft flame acetylene torch.
    > The thing is you really do not need to go to too much trouble.
    >
    > Soldering the diameter ,heating one point at a time. Dividing heat like a slice of pie. One slice at a time. Fill solder at each slice then heat to the next slice till you have a visually complete joint.
    > This is a explanation I have used for soldering large diameter valves and fittings. Not so much for smaller diameter.
    >
    > Don't ever disassemble a ball valve to solder it. Ball valves are not designed for that. Those threads are fine machined threads and are susceptible to cross threading. And the internals of some brand valves can even fall out of the valve body!
    >
    > Putting a ball valve at half closed, half open is a good idea if you feel you might over heat. This can help to stop the delron seal between the ball and the valve body from deforming.


    Putting a valve half open is to prevent pressure from building up during heating which can blow the seal(s) out.

    Every manufacturer I've asked recommended leaving it half open.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • VoyagerVoyager Posts: 196Member
    Interesting. I have had just the opposite result with every manufacturer I have checked with recommending either fully open or fully closed and most being fully open. I have soldered with a wet rag and without and saw little difference. Most valves seem to operate more easily after soldering so the polymer does seems to relax a little from the heat, but I have yet to have one leak. Here is how one valve maker recommends soldering.

  • Intplm.Intplm. Posts: 447Member
    @ ChrisJ Right....what I said was half open half closed. It's the same thing so Sure! I am in agreement with you.
    Plus some manufacturers have different types of material for there seals.
    As a habit, I half open or half close the valve.This helps protect the valve, and allows water to escape if the valve is installed while soldering
    Haven't blown a seal yet. May never . Using mostly propress now.
  • Intplm.Intplm. Posts: 447Member
    @pecmsg have come across a few of them soldered too. Apparently there was a failed press and someone decided to fix it by soldering rather then remove it.
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,143Member
    Leonard said:

    I'll buy some ~ 2pound mapp gas tanks. Have several propane/air turbo torches, ( BernzOmatic TS700 and TX504 TurboTorch Exstream) I assume those will be ok , right? Likely will use only one torch, maybe 2, counting solder need 3 hands.

    For flux I've found one with fine solder particals in it. Works the BEST I've ever tried. C-flux by rectoseal. Contains :ethanolamine hydrogen chloride, zinc chloride, zinc oxide, ammonium chloride, tin and antimony. What's your opinion on this one for long life of solder joint to valves? I'm thinking corrosion of "brass" valve.

    What brand of ball valve do you recommend? I want long life > 20 years.

    8 years ago I put some home depot 1/2 inch valves (rubber seat) on potable hot water lines and they are developing white barnical corrosion spots on outside. Was a lighter shade of brass, guessing it's the cheap brass that corrodes easily. There are ~ 2 basic alloys of brass/broze. Heard they used wrong alloy on a ship "manhole" cover and the zinc? in it quickly corroded leaving weak microscopic "swiss cheese" copper structure.

    Just make sure you flush out those "chlorides" very well as they are very aggressive to components, like stainless boilers :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,143Member
    I think ball valves are more prone to fail from lack of use, by not rotating the ball occasionally. It's just a chunk of brass, at the end of the day.

    The Caleffi EMV is a ball valve style mix valve, the ball is rotated twice around every 24 hours to prevent scale build up that can damage seals, or lock the ball in one position as you often see in a shutoff application a ball valve.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • GordyGordy Posts: 9,251Member
    This is amusing.......

  • Charlie from wmassCharlie from wmass Posts: 4,043Member
    Handle at 45 degrees unless it is there to hold back the water. Also the Apollo video shows very poor soldering technique in that they are adding solder to the joint where the flame is. But hey what do I know?
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,143Member
    I suppose 10 plumbers could have 10 different styles of soldering :) I always keep the heat moving and at the base of the fitting. Heat just enough until solder flows in and around the joint without the flame applied. To me that indicates the joint is sufficiently warmed to the base of the fitting.

    If you over-het and the flux turns black, start over. water soluble flux seems to be more over-heat sensitive, burns just a bit above the melting point of low lead solders, a narrow temperature range to work in.

    Some suggest with low lead fittings and valves move heat back and forth from tube to base of fitting as the low lead alloy heats and expands differently and doesn't conduct as well from tube to fitting?

    I think we all find the combination of prep, flux, solder, torch, and method that provides the highest % of leak-free joints.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • VoyagerVoyager Posts: 196Member
    That’s for sure. I have watched a number of plumbers solder and training videos from both trade schools and various component manufacturers. The only thing that is consistent is inconsistency. After trying a few techniques, I settled on one I saw somewhere where the gentleman suggested heating the pipe first to ensure it gets heat deep into the fitting and then heat the fitting with the flame angled away from the fitting so that you don’t have the flame ever directed into the seam of the joint. Keep the heat moving and then test the temp until it is right.

    Most fluxes will bubble and sizzle just before the temp is right so you want to have the solder ready then as much more heat can burn out the flux causing you to start over. This method seems quite reliable and seems to not cause any grief to the valves as the flame is directed away from the valve.

    The good thing is that soldering is a fairly forgiving process and it seems that a number of different techniques will still result in acceptable joint quality.
  • Intplm.Intplm. Posts: 447Member
    A wise old man that I worked with and learned alot from said something to me that I am reminded of now.

    "There can be six different ways to do things and they all can be right."
  • SuperTechSuperTech Posts: 937Member
    I was taught how to solder from my father who was a master plumber. He used the same technique that Hot Rod described. Other guys have said that it's wrong even though I rarely have any leaks. The desired results can be achieved numerous ways. The most important thing is to keep it clean and don't overheat the joint.
  • Charlie from wmassCharlie from wmass Posts: 4,043Member
    I was taught and raised by a less generous observer of the human condition. I was taught 20 guys can do a job 100 different ways and still not get it right. Lol
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Charlie from wmassCharlie from wmass Posts: 4,043Member
    Clean pipe and fittings, moderate heat in motion and never enter the joint with the solder and torch at the same location
    Valve half way prevents any moisture from flashing to steam and popping the seal. If you melt the plastic in the valve it will definitely increase the chance of it not functioning properly.
    Soldering I was taught 2/3 flame on fittings 1/3 on pipe to assure draw of solder into the joint.
    I am not saying I am right and others are wrong, I am just the product of training by a Scotsman who never had an issue with anger. It came easily. Lol
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 5,289Member
    I agree with @Charlie from wmass guess my method is similar to his
  • GordyGordy Posts: 9,251Member
    The manufacturer videos I posted were more in reference about valve position while soldering, rather than soldering technique.
«134
Sign In or Register to comment.

Welcome

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!