Sweating in ball valves 1.5" , disassemble before sweating?

SuperTech

You have to remember that air is the enemy in a hydronic system. Air is introduced every time you add fresh water to the system, even if you give all the zones a good purge. That's why I love isolation valves on everything, I am always able to work on the boiler without draining the boiler and zones. If you have glycol in the system it's really nice to avoid draining and pumping the glycol back in if possible isolate everything. I add 8 way boiler treatment to my boiler and temporarily raise the pressure to 25 PSi. I temporarily disable outdoor reset and let the boiler run up to the high limit of 195 degrees. I'll set my Grundfos Alpha 2 on its highest speed for a day. With my micobubble resorber I can get my boiler fluid pretty much free of any air after by the time I get back from work

No air in system equals optimum performance, reliability and efficiency. And it keeps operation as quiet as possible.

Leonard

Air--- that's a good point. But right now it's winter, want to limit scope of project to minimize chance of hitting a snag and not having heat at night.

I do appreciate the suggestions and ideas, but I'll save more extensive work for summer where I won;t suffer in cold if I hit a snag or need a part afterhours

I'm green, don't know much about boiler chemicals. I'm running straight city water.

SuperTech

Good luck with everything @Leonard. I completely understand the need to get things done quickly. My OCD kicks in when I work on my boiler and I have to do everything to the best of my ability with the best components I can get. I end realising my mistake when I have to go to sleep with a cold house.

Maybe you can do this work as a temporary repair and install isolation flanges (and maybe 8 way boiler treatment) after hearing season.
Temporary repair = using sharkbite fittings. No torch or press tool necessary and if you have to cut the flanges out just pop on a sharkbite ball valve. No need for threading pipe or cleaning fittings.

Get the desired results in a fraction of the time. Plan out your future upgrade and take your time finding the best deals on what you need.

Leonard

I 'm thinking circ and pressure relief now, rest for summer.

I suppose I could do flange ball valves if I change existing pipe. Was thinking of keeping project small (low risk) for heating season. I'ld have to calculate new pipe lengths I need. And how much thread length is used up in female fitting. I haven't really done pipe to that accuracy.....yet.

Good news is I walked the ailes of local FW Webb today, seem to have EVERYTHING I'ld ever want in stock, and on the shelves.

Biggest issue is NEEDS to be done tomorrow. Circ is starting to leak faster, and had to oil it again last night to get motor to not cycle on thermal protection (oiling it every night, my luck won't last forever) .

SuperTech

Sounds like it definitely can't wait any longer. It shouldn't be too tough to make the temporary repairs, especially if you do a temporary repair.

Get the ball valve isolation flanges if possible. They come with long and short handles for installation in tight locations. You can see the short ones on my Taco Viridian circulator for the injection loop.

Maybe you should consider upgrading to a Variable speed ECM pump....

Intplm.

@Leonard I like the advice SuperTech is giving and your plan on how to do things now and later with warmer weather.
Be sure to let us know how things turn out.

Leonard

All went well. Replaced circulator and pressure relief yesterday. Flanges were in better shape than they looked from outside. Seems weeping had only rusted edges. Flanges were still structurally sound, so I just wire brushed and filed.

Had some trouble with a well rusted bolt holding flange. Put heat on nut, used heavy vice grips and musseled it off, WITHOUT holding bolt!! Heated flange and hammered a socket on bolt head and muscled it out with 1/2 drive breaker bar. (Metric sizes are useful on rusted American bolts)

Circulator casting flanges were "O" ring type, I used flat gaskets, didn't know O-ring size when I bought parts. Took dial caliper measurements and made a drawing for next time.

Flange surfaces looked rough even after cleaning, so I also put Permatex car gasket maker "Ultra BLack" RTV on it. Used taco black flat gaskets.

Last time was hard to hold heavy motor while taking things apart. So this time I nailed a chain to rafter and used S-hook to hang motor. Worked well, didn't have to disconnect wiring this time.

System holds a LOT of water, took forever to drain , and later fill. I'll install isolation valves next time system is drained, hopefully in another 17 year when circ dies again.

Loaded it to ~ 10 psi, we'll see if it holds pressure or if boiler is also cracked.

B&G circulator mid section that died did not have any oil felt over bushings, new one did.

Intplm.

Great the flanges where good. You did your homework and planned things real well. Super👍.

Leonard

Was motivated by not wanting to freeze, so planned it first. Needed to have heat back on by bedtime

Still have heating things to learn though

Leonard

NEW PROBLEM

Anyone else have troubles with new Bell & Gosset circulator midsections dragging and overheating the motor. (189134LF --- casting/shaft/seal/bearing assembly.
this part---> https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bell-Gossett-189134LF-Bearing-Assembly-w-Impeller-Lead-Free-Series-100?msclkid=b308316a4cb7145c22fd6dece17fd735&utm_source=bingad&utm_medium=sku

Woke up for a pee break, house was cold, 5 degs below expected. Found circulator motor very hot and off via it's internal thermal protection (auto resetable). Rotated linkage with a screw driver, felt some drag torque, likely from pump. Turned it 1-2 times and seemed to turn easier...maybe. Turned it on and it ran. Plugged in 6 inch "muffin " fan I previously had put nearby to cool it. Still 1/2 asleep figured I'ld buy a new motor ( might have shorted turns) and went back to bed. Now many hours later house is warm again. Motor was very free when installed new circultor midsection.

Now I remember many of the ~ 10 ciculator boxes at FW Webb were opened. Started wondering if with popularity of cartridge circulators so few of these old styles are being sold they are getting old and seizing up on the shelf. And store opened boxes to check if seized. First one I bought at other store was completely seized up solid. Any experience on this?

When I installed circulator it had little more drag torque than expected , but maybe ~ same ? as last one 17 years ago.

EBEBRATT-Ed

B&G usually ships lube oil in the circulator box to oil the bearing assembly and motor.

Did you find this it is in a tube?

Leonard

Yes. It said 20 weight mineral oil

Pulled off 1x 2 inch rectangular "cap" that holds oiler filler. Poured ~ 80-90% of tube on oil felts. Rest into motor. Put cap back on. In circulator midsection assembly I used only the oil that came with it.

Motor was VERY free when I installed circulator assembly . I had been oiling it with ~ 10-30 motor oil each year. And over last week I WELL oiled both each day with lot of PB blaster penetrating oil and 10-30 motor oil. Was dripping out, but I was desperate last week.

After I bolted circulator midsection assembly to it's flanged casting, impeller was not hitting and drag torque had not increased.

Leonard

Thought of a motor test, I'll disconnect circulator and run motor without a load. If gets real hot again guessing it's likely shorted windings.

Also have a meter to read watts, VA, RMS amps, power factor ( $20 "kill-a-watt" meter). Will ohm for shorts to case also.
Have thermocouple wire meter to read case temp.

SuperTech

Well advice on a wet rotor circulator and pump isolation flanges fell on deaf ears. I'm out of suggestions.

Leonard

Well just seems with all the experts here someone must have some experience with these older style circulators.

Just wired in a meter onto pump motor. Nameplate says 1.7 amps. At room temp (~70 deg) and pumping water motor draws 1.71amps RMS 118 watts, Talking more test data now, we'll see how much it draw as it heats up,

Winding Insulation resistance to case 600,000 ohms, so no shorts

Insulation on power wires coming out of motor seem very stiff, cracked at one point. Guess means must have been running hot many years, or very old. Motor is at least 17 years old , maybe 30+

Intplm.

Hmmm? Maybe try a Taco 007 or equivalent circ. ?

Leonard

Things might be ok, at least for now, 30 deg day out. Took some test data on circulator motor, 2hr 15 min run. Seems motor is not drawing excess current under load.
After motor warmed up drew steady 1.63 amps 105 watts/194 VA, on 118-120 VAC
Nameplate says 1.7 amp, 115V , 40 deg C continuous

Had baseboards cold for > 8 hours, boiler was up to temp. Pushed room thermostat up high and took circulator motor reading every 5 min. Case temp, amps, volts, watts, VA

Cold circulator motor start drew 1.7-1.8 amps initially but after it warmed up 8 minutes total run time ( 1hour total time, aquastat cycled it) current settled down to steady 1.63 amps RMS, (105 watts) and max case temp was 127 deg F after ~ 84 minutes continuous run time. Motor NEVER cycled on internal thermal safty.

Motor says 40 deg C cont rating. I assume that means 40 deg C temp rise over ambient (cellar is 70 deg F) so that's 142 deg F. I assume that's motor EXTERNAL CASE temp.

Maybe circulator is just in a hot ambient, have to check firebox , maybe insulation has a problem.

Was only ~ 30 degs out now, supposed to be 15 tomorrow so I'll run more motor temp tests then. Maybe motor will get hotter.

HotanCool

KC_Jones said:

ChrisJ said:

JUGHNE said:

There is another posting about torches for large copper.
I mentioned the swivel head Turbotorch with Mapp gas does a good job. Not a large investment for a tool that works good.

I used that torch on 1 1/2" valves with no problem.
Male adaptors add up in money, 4 would buy another ball valve at that size.

I've done an 1 1/4" valve with a Bernzomatic MAPP torch, the one with the hose rather than the bottle screwed to it.

I did a 1 1/2" on my hartford loop with the same setup as Chris. I won't say it was perfect, but it worked just fine.

You did your steam pipe in copper?

Charlie from wmass

No he did condensate piping in copper.

KC_Jones

Charlie from wmass said:

No he did condensate piping in copper.

Yep, and my wet return water is always crystal clear.

steamfitter

In my experience, I have seen manufacturer's literature that suggested leaving the ball valve either completely open or closed, not partially open. I have had problems with valves soldered partially open. The seat expands on one portion and then the valve can't properly close.

The CDA (Copper Development Association) has valuable information about soldering. They recommend Heating the tubing first and then the fitting before adding the filler metal (solder). Capillary action is what draws the solder into the joint. Point the flame towards the tubing when you heat the brass valve and remove the flame quickly once you see the solder draw into the joint.

If you do it properly you will not overheat the valve and damage it. However, if you're new at this procedure, it is a good idea to wrap a wet rag around the center of the valve.

The CDA also recommends soldering the bottom first to build a dam that the rest of the solder can sit on. Work from the bottom up. Unlike some of the videos I just saw on this thread. Let gravity work in your favor.

A helpful tip for an easy solder joint that looks beautiful when done is to put the copper tubing in a vertical position. Then put the valve on it and the other piece of copper on the other end. Then solder the top joint first so gravity allows the solder to sit in the joint without running out if it. Then flip the fabricated copper tubing a d ball valve over, 180 degrees and solder the opposite side.
This type of fabrication allows you to easily solder a professional looking joint. You can then cut the copper tubing to size and install in the piping. It's a great trick!

Charlie from wmass

Webstone valves specifically call for the valve to be partially closed/ open. Just what I do and was taught.

SuperTech

> @Leonard said:
> Things might be ok, at least for now, 30 deg day out. Took some test data on circulator motor, 2hr 15 min run. Seems motor is not drawing excess current under load.
> After motor warmed up drew steady 1.63 amps 105 watts/194 VA, on 118-120 VAC
> Nameplate says 1.7 amp, 115V , 40 deg C continuous
>
> Had baseboards cold for > 8 hours, boiler was up to temp. Pushed room thermostat up high and took circulator motor reading every 5 min. Case temp, amps, volts, watts, VA
>
> Cold circulator motor start drew 1.7-1.8 amps initially but after it warmed up 8 minutes total run time ( 1hour total time, aquastat cycled it) current settled down to steady 1.63 amps RMS, (105 watts) and max case temp was 127 deg F after ~ 84 minutes continuous run time. Motor NEVER cycled on internal thermal safty.
>
> Motor says 40 deg C cont rating. I assume that means 40 deg C temp rise over ambient (cellar is 70 deg F) so that's 142 deg F. I assume that's motor EXTERNAL CASE temp.
>
> Maybe circulator is just in a hot ambient, have to check firebox , maybe insulation has a problem.
>
> Was only ~ 30 degs out now, supposed to be 15 tomorrow so I'll run more motor temp tests then. Maybe motor will get hotter.

@Leonard . You are wasting your time fussing over a motor that is the equivalent of a car with 250,000 miles. Let it go. Adapt and overcome. Taco 007 has been the industry standard for a long time. Or you can try a Grundfos or B&G if you don't like Taco. You would have already been over this problem if took the good advice given by the forum. You would be able to avoid draining the boiler again with isolation flanges, instead you made a project out of cleaning up the old ones. I don't understand it, change can be a good thing.😉

EBEBRATT-Ed

@SuperTech has good advise

Leonard

Have heat now so, I've been doing experiments ( I'm retired engineer). Seems motor only cycles on thermal protection on long runs. Like when it was <10 degs outside.

I agree likely bad motor. I've come to same conclusion on that.
I'll buy a new motor. To have same pump curve as my B&G 100 would need TACO 010 circ. Between motor and bearing assembly I already bought total cost will be close to taco 010, so no real loss.

Wasn't until couple days ago that I noticed circulator bearing assembly I removed was not dragging at all. New and previous one both had same medium drag WHEN NEW, but 17 years ago this motor had no problems driving it. So that's a major clue motor changed somehow.

Odd that I had coincidence of TWO simultaneous failures: water leak and hot motor cyclcing. ( I think motor is 30 years old, and maybe a rebuilt at that)

I put thermocouple and amp/watt/VA/volt meter on circ motor and took some test data while it pumped, 2hr 15 min test. Started with cold baseboards and hot boiler. Made this interesting graph. Nameplate said 115V, 1.7 amps, 40 deg C continuous.

Circ motor did NOT cycle on internal thermal protection. But case was too hot to keep my hand on it , 127 deg F.
Sounds like a REAL sign it's too hot, do you agree?

SuperTech

Ahh. A retired engineer. Now I understand all the experimenting and messing around. I appreciate all the effort you put in to figure out the problem. I think you will be happy with a Taco circulator.

Leonard

I'll buy a motor for bearing assembly I already installed, motor is ~1/2 price of a Taco 010. Plus won't have to drain system again. Not eager to use a Taco 007 without calculating pipe friction pressure drops, have monoflow tees that I'm told need a min velocity.

One heatless night 30+ years ago an oil tech installed current B&G MRF58JV motor 1/12 hp, then years later a supply house looked at my circulator without a part # and sold me a B&G booster 189134 circulator bearing assembly with impeller as a replacement .

Before I buy a new motor, can you confirm that the motor has enough power to run that pump? I'm just a little bit concerned that motor may have ran hot for years, insulation on 115V motor leads is hard and cracked.

Leonard

Now turns out old motor I've been having trouble with wouldn't start, rotate it a little and it does. Must be a start winding

Went to parts wearhouse, so much for my thoughts of getting a cheap motor. Turns out that low internet supplier price I saw was for an "equivalent" motor from China ( chinajunk). B&G one is 3x cost. Now I understand why people use Taco cartridge pumps.

I've got a salvaged B&G whole pump assembly I've kept on hand as a spare. Took motor off and plugged it in, it runs. I'll take it apart and clean it. Use that for now.

Charlie from wmass

How many btus are you moving?

Leonard

nossel is 1.1 GPH so guessing ~129k BTU out the FHW pipe of boiler. Have monoflow tee system, 1 zone.

Have heat, bad motor is running for now. Sometimes have to turn it to new position to start it.
----------------------------------------

Started taking spare motor apart to check and clean it. Seeing the design I suspect bad motor has 2 problems.

1) no start...likely centrifugal start switch contacts are dirty ( they aren't enclosed)

2) running HOT... maybe shorted winding

Charlie from wmass

Apply this formula to find gpm. Assume 20 degree delta T and remember to deduct efficiency loss from input oil rate for what is available to be pumped. Have you measured oil pressure to extrapolate the actual fire rate?

EBEBRATT-Ed

1.1 gph is 154000 input x.8=123200/10000=12.32gpm

Charlie from wmass

@EBEBRATT-Ed I like making folks do their own math.

Leonard

Haven't designed with pumps, but think I see where your going with this. Knowing GPM water flow can look at pump curve and estimate what my pressure difference across pump is. Use this info to see if can use diferent pump ( taco cartridge circulators). I'll have to measure and confirm 20 deta T design across 60 year old boiler.

Engineer, but I'm not up to speed on commonly used heating standards/design and short cuts. You guys have a lot more insight into that than I do. Did derive that same formula BTU= GPM x 500 x (delta T) for my shower though.

Didn't check oil pump pressure, replaced pump 10 years ago. Assumed it was factory set to 100 psi. It's likely close, over few tank loads my hour meter on burner matches up with oil consumed from tank ( I calibrated tank gauge to gallons delivered, and hour meter)

SuperTech

@Leonard I understand your concerns about the flow requirements for monoflo tees, I have a two pipe reverse return monoflo system at my house, originally installed with a B&G circulator. My current Peerless boiler is a similar size and I used a Taco 007 for years with no issues. I have now moved on to using variable speed ECM circulators. No need to worry about using a 007 or similar pump. I believe it's a superior product compared to the old there piece circulators.

Leonard

If I used a Taco type cartridge circulator would I need to install a magnetic separator before it? I've read of rust particles being attracted to the permanent magnets and binding up the pump.


The bearing assembly ( B&G series 100 type ) is already installed, for now I'll install the used motor I just got done cleaning and inspecting.

I need oil for the motor, new bearing assembly came with 20 weight mineral oil. There's nothing special about mineral oil is there? Was going to use straight 20 weight motor oil, or even 10-30

Charlie from wmass

Is this a closed or open system?

Leonard

Closed, has expansion tank

Still deciding if have a leak in boiler, if leak it's not bad one.

Before I replaced leaking circulator and pressure relif valve I was adding little extra water about every 2-3 weeks if pressure is ~ 3 psi.

Charlie from wmass

Mag separator is nice but not required. Of the system is heavy on ferrous components and the boiler is narrow passages like a mod con gas boiler it is more important.

Leonard

Only ferrous is 60 year old cast iron boiler , ~ 145 feet of cast iron 1 ft tall baseboards, expansion tank.