Gurgling first and now whistling radiators

mrflip99

First and foremost, this website is great and has tons of info than any other site! I have been doing my initial research before posting but I am at my wits end. I am slowly learning that steam is a "lost art" just like the book everyone recommends which leads me to believe that heavy experience is needed to get it just right.

I currently live on the second floor of a 3 story/unit house. Each floor has its own heat. All was quiet on the western front. My initial bill came in around $250 which shocked me for a single floor unit with 7 radiators (see attached diagram, based on my visual assumptions). I followed the steps below for better efficiency.

1) Drained existing old boiler water multiple times to flush out any debris.
2) Insulated bare basement piping as much as possible with 1" fiberglass ASJ jacketing (still have to install pvc cover fitting). No insulation on risers/ exterior house walls are not insulated.
3) Replaced existing rusted main vents (smaller vents I think) with two B&J Big mouth vents on the dry return.
4) Increased venting on the bedroom radiator vents from #4's to #D's. This caused uneven heating and living room/dining room would take forever to heat, but all is still quiet through the night.
5) Old bathroom vent broke, (maybe due to insulated pipes causing increased pressure?) and changed to #5 for a bit increased heating since my wife likes it to be toasty in the morning. Not sure if this matters.
6) Decreased bedroom vents from #D to #5s. This caused intermittent, inconsistent gurgling and very little water drops to come out of the vent. This would wake me in the middle of the night and would continue only until I turned the thermostat down to kill the boiler. [In the process bedroom 2 radiator threads were worn out and was forced to use a 1/8" street elbow to hold vent in place and am now scared to touch it for fear of having to rethread it, etc.]
7) I gave up on getting the room warmer and just want to get rid of the noise, so I decreased bedroom 1 radiator vent back to #4 and thought issue was addressed. I later realized that the noise starts to occur later into the heating phase (maybe after a few cycles/increased pressure?). Inspecting the old #5 vent, there is water that leaked out the threaded hole - not sure if this is an indication of wet steam?

Bathroom - #5 vent gurgles but don't care too much for it.
Bedroom 1 - #4 vent now whistles softly consistently when radiator is already hot, i assume the gurgling from #5 vent stopped because there is a smaller hole now producing a consistent pressure on the vent.
Bedroom 2 - #5 vent gurgles intermittently
Kitchen - vent looks like a hoffman 40 - always whistling when on, seems to never shut. no visible steam coming out.
There is a 3rd floor stem valve that has been capped and closed, not shown in diagram.
There is a 1st floor radiator that is not used and valve has been closed, radiator vent opening has a plug.
All radiators do get hot across the top surface. There is some slight occasional water hammer but nothing too extreme for me to complain about.
Time for radiators to get hot from cold start = 35min, maybe due to uninsulated risers to 2nd floor?

I still have to check:
- pigtail if it is clogged, 0-30 gauge never seems to move from zero, however, i didnt watch it consistently through the boiler cycles.
- length of each cycle
- boiler type is unknown -- i will add photos
- radiator EDR unknown -- i will add photos
- pressuretrol setting (i think main is set at 2 with a 1.5 subtractive diff)

Any other leads on what it could be? Based on other posts, the problem is usually due to not venting mains well enough but i think the big mouths are more than capable of doing since it is 2-3x the size of a Gorton #2. How can i check to ensure that the big mouths are not defective?
Am i wrong to use different size radiator vents for a 1 floor system?

Any recommendations for a steam expert in the 07088 NJ zip code?

JUGHNE

I would clean the pigtail first, then add a 0-3 PSI gauge above the pigtail. The 0-30 gauge might never move, even if you are up to 5 PSI. A plugged pigtail will fool the pressure control, you have some symptoms of pressure being too high.

Your 2 bedrooms are fed by 15' of 1 1/4"? That is quite a stretch of small pipe for counterflow runouts.
Old steam valves seldom are 100% shutoff, steam will leak in and condensate will not come out.

If the 1/8" threads are shot, then you can easily drill and tap that hole to 1/4". Using a reducing bushing you can get back to the original setup.

Fred

Also, make sure the radiators that spit water are pitched back towards the supply valve. My guess is as @JUGHNE suggested, a clogged pigtail causing the system pressure to be higher than it should be.

mrflip99

@JUGHNE thanks for input, what specific symptoms are of high pressure? Good to know about old shutoff valves, would it be better to open the valve and rely on the capped nut?

I will check the pigtail and ensure that it is not clogged. In doing so, i may also add in a 0-10 PSI gauge, whats the best way to do this? I think the 0-30 existing gauge is direct to the boiler. should i just hook up new gauge on the same line as existing gauge or throw it on before the pigtail?

@Fred what happens when the radiator is not pitched towards supply? Gurgling sounds?

Fred

@mrflip99 ,Yes, the radiator will hold water and gurgle and/or spit water from the vent. Supply valve must be fully open as well.

JUGHNE

You want a 0-3 psi gauge, your system should run at no more than 2 psi.
You need a 1/4" tee and nipple out the side to a 90 and nipple up to a coupling for the new gauge.
Also need another 3-4" long 1/4" going up for the pressure control.
Get brass nipples and fittings.
If the Pigtail is steel, a copper one would be better.

mrflip99

@JUGHNE do i need pigtails for each of my gauges?

ethicalpaul

No, several controls/gauges can come off the same pigtail

mrflip99

After thinking about it more, I do think there is too much pressure in the system. Kitchen radiator is blowing out steam (used mirror) and the bedroom radiator is making spitting noises at the stem valve. I have since changed the bedroom vent to an adjustable which has resolved some of the noise.

Still waiting on the 0-3 LP gauge to come in so haven’t been able to check if anything is clogged. I plan on adding a T at the top of the pigtail, with branches for pressuretrol, LP gauge and a new 0-30 gauge since the old one is probably shot located before the pigtail. I have attached some photos. Would it be ok to put a ball valve before the LP and another one after the LP to release the pressure? I see many people put one before but no photos of anyone having a pressure release valve.

I am also a bit fearful that the pressure may be too high... any interim fix to ensure system pressure isn’t damaging vents, etc?

ethicalpaul

You can check/clean the pigtail before your new stuff arrives.

Fred

You can put a valve before the LP gauge, if you want and turn it off unless you want to check the pressure only periodically,while the boiler is running. Putting anything on there to relieve pressure serves no purpose at all and is probably dangerous and a potential burn hazard. The goal has to be to keep the pressure at 1.5 to no more than 2 PSI at all times. If the system goes higher than that, it needs to be addressed.

BobC

You look like your running between 2-4 PSI assuming that steel pigtail is clear.

Lower the main to under 2 PSI, you can try and go lower but I don't think that style of pressuretrol will do that. lower the DIFF to 0.5 PSI.

Steel pigtails get blocked easily, replace it with a copper or brass pigtail that won't be so apt to plug up.

Bob

mrflip99

@BobC scary part is, the 0-30 gauge never moves and through my nest app, i see the system begin to preheating (67 degrees) 3:00am to get to 72 with no shut off until 5:00am. Thats 2hrs with no cycling. slight hissing at a valve stem would indicate a good amount of pressure right?

I did confirm that the 2 big mouths main vents open and close so no issue there. only slight steam dissipating before it actually closes.

@Fred after opening the LP valve and get my reading, how do get my gauge back down to zero? I saw someone's post that he turns off the boiler and then turn it back on. is this safe practice and doesn't it take time for the pressure to come down? Is it bad to leave pressure on that LP gauge (after closing valve)?

coelcanth

you might be overthinking the gauge..
pressure drops quickly after the end of heat cycle.
the gauge will drop back down to zero along with the pressure.

ethicalpaul

I agree @coelcanth. I think @mrflip99 is talking about putting a valve in front of his low pressure gauge and is worried about the pressure being on it if he closes the valve when the pressure is up.

But the pressure will drop as soon as you close the valve I think because the trapped steam will cool and collapse.

But regardless of all that, I say the gauge can handle being exposed to the low steam pressure protected by the pigtail, don't worry about a valve.

Also you should feel really good that your boiler piping looks pretty good (to my somewhat educated amateur eyes). Most people come here in far far worse shape. I bet once your pressure is addressed and then your radiator vents are re-balanced, your system will be really good. After your pressure is addressed, the balancing of your vents will likely change.

If you need a pro, I've had @Dave0176 to my house (close to yours) and he's awesome. And @EzzyT serves our area too and is also awesome.

PS: you can read about my trip down this same road here https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/167241/no-main-vents

JUGHNE

Your nest app tells you only that it as a thermostat is calling for heat. It most likely does not know if the Pressure control opens within those 2 hours.
It probably should open to limit the pressure.
The higher pressure you might be having will wreck your rad vents.
So the cleaning of the pig tail is important to do now.
Also I would unscrew that 0-30 gauge and make sure the tee going into the boiler is clear. If it is plugged then both gauge and control see no pressure. I would just put the old 0-30 gauge back on even if it never moves. Your 0-3 is the one to watch.
0-30 is code requirement and a waste of money for most.

mikeg2015

What’s the boiler size vs the EDR?

I’m fighting and issue now where I added TRVs so my upstairs isn’t overheated and not pressure climbs above 1oz and things get noisy. At 3 oz one valve stem I need ot repack will spit.

I think my boiler is just massively oversized and not much I can do. Would really love to add a hot water loop off it and dump heat to a air coil in the air handler so I can zone the 1st floor better and bled off some boiler capacity.

JUGHNE

Mike, ounces or pounds?

mrflip99

Update: I was able to remove pressure trim and loosen the pigtail (but not remove). I also was able to remove the pressure gauge. I had issues with clearance for the pigtail so I just cleaned the pigtail and the horizontal pipe going into the boiler.

Question is, what are my options in changing the pigtail and extending it out so I have clearance to add in the LP gauge?

I’m thinking my best bet would be to saw off the old pigtail so I can actually turn the T for removal. Do I need to replace the nipple going directly into the boiler with a brass nipple or do I just leave that in and add a union to extend it out with and elbow going into a new brass pigtail?

Fred

It may be hard to get that nipple out. Cut the pigtail and replace it with a brass one. While you have it and the Tee off, clean the nipple out and use a union to connect it back, using brass nipples and fittings and pigtail. That way you will be able to take things apart easily to clean things out, once a year

mrflip99

@Fred thanks for confirming, this is my first rodeo so I just wanted to be sure that it was the right thing to do.

On the upside, I think the pressure has decreased and may actually be cycling on and off. There has been less noise coming from the vents.

gfrbrookline

I just reread through your post, do you have a 5 degree set back that recovers in the morning? That may be a huge part of your problem. Single pipe steam works best without setbacks. If you have to use set backs it should be minimal, 2 degrees.

Everything above is good advice and should be followed as standard practice with steam heat but you should also limit the setback.

Kjmass1

Toss the Nest and get an ecobee if you want a WiFi unit. Much better control.

mrflip99

@gfrbrookline Where would the setback control be located? On the boiler? Unless you are referring to the thermostat?

I have the nest set to 60 at 11pm to decrease gas consumption and then set to 72 at 7am. As a result the nest kicks on 3hrs in advance for preheating.

I still need to check the pressure on the boiler in the morning when I begin to hear all the radiator noises (after long periods of the boiler running). I haven’t been able to work on it much since I sprained my ankle last week.

gfrbrookline

The set back is setting the nest to 60 at night and 72 at 7am. Single pipe steam works best at a constant temperature. You are burning way more gas trying to bring your building back up to temperature than you are saving on letting it cool overnight. You can't treat steam heat the same way you would with forced hot air, especially if you have a brick building like mine, it takes way to much energy to reheat the thermal mass of the building.

mrflip99

@gfrbrookline thanks, will try feb with a constant temperature and see how it affects the bill.

Jamie Hall

A 12 degree setback? No wonder you're having some problems... if I did that in Cedric's home, the poor old boy would take 6 hours to recover... Never more than 3 degees.

gfrbrookline

Hence the Nest thermostat turns the boiler on at 3am, when it reads 67 to bring it back to 72 by 7am.