Help on Improving Steam System Performance

lwolf

@KC_Jones

There was an active leak back in November at a pipe joint that was repaired and fixed.

The basement is completely exposed so I can examine the mains, branches and wet returns for the entire system. There's no water anywhere that I can tell.

If I knew how to reset the LWCO display I'd have a better sense for the actual water loss in a day/week, etc.

I'm learning lessons from this community, essentially I want to know what my issue is before calling someone to monkey w/ the system.

KC_Jones

If you have the hydrolevel VXT water feeder, pull the cover and there is a reset button in the lower right hand corner of the circuit board (DISPLAY RST).

Fred

If that boiler is being fed water 3 to 5 times a day, you need to figure out where the leak is. Have you ever over filled the boiler to see if water spills out on the floor? It sounds like a good size leak. Do you see steam rising out of the chimney when the boiler is in a heat cycle?

lwolf

@KC_Jones

Hydrolevel VXT installed 1/18/2018... total gallons 748!

Did two things... reset to zero so I can get a better handle on actual usage.

I also adjusted the feed display to 6mins as we do have old return pipes.

@Fred

When I fired up the boiler for the first time I accidentally manually overfed water and it cascaded over the top.

There's no steam from the boiler but I do see steam from the chimney when the boiler runs. I also assumed that was normal...

When we moved in, we had the chimney sleeve from the boiler re-done, perhaps that's where all the water is going?

When the boiler was cleaned as part of the annual service (July 2018), the technician noted that the top of the boiler was rusted but it still operated ok.

Now that we know what the issue is, what should we think about as immediate next steps?

Fred

It is not normal for water to spill out of the boiler from an overfill or for steam to flow up the chimney. There is a hole rusted through the top of the boiler block. About the only fix for that is to replace the boiler. If one section of that block is rusted through, the other sections aren't far behind so replacing a bad section isn't a wise use of money.

lwolf

Will note that we had 3 different plumbers come buy:

1. heating company for service = need new boiler
2. random plumber from our GC = boiler good to go
3. plumber = can survive this winter but look to replace next heating season

My wife and I have been debating whether to switch from oil to gas as part of our house remodel and thus a new boiler in 2019 so perhaps we knew there were issues, just not how extensive...

We trust our GC so perhaps that led us to discount the other two plumbers...

Lessons learned perhaps.

lwolf

If I started this thread w/ steam through the chimney I would have saved you all the trouble of responding to my various questions.

Thanks again.

Fred

Your other questions were pertinent, regardless of needing to replace the boiler. At least now you know where to come to post pictures as the new boiler goes in so we can advise if it is being done correctly, rather than after the fact.

gfrbrookline

You also learned something that will help with the new boiler, the importance of properly sized main vents. Just make sure that when you replace the boiler whoever does it matches it to the connected load of the radiators and either follows the manufacturer's instructions for piping or even better installs a drop header.

I switched from oil to NG in 2005 and have never looked back. It costs less, at least in my area, doesn't smell up the basement and I don't have to worry about deliveries and running out of oil.

lwolf

@Fred @gfrbrookline definitely a learning experience for shore that didn't set us back thousands of dollars. I still need to insulate and fully vent my end of mains.

My eyes are definitely open on what's the wrong way to do a boiler install esp off the previous chain i referenced above.

I'll even take the step further of asking to see actual install from other jobs just to get comfortable before dropping a lot of money on under/oversided boiler and awful piping.

Re: Nat Gas... would love to get this done; just have to make sure ConEd will run a line to our house without it costing a fortune.

Many thanks again for all who helped me get here.

gfrbrookline

I have a row house right off the street with gas already in the building for the kitchens didn't have to factor that in. I will say 15 years later my annual gas bill is still lower, now by 1/3, than my 2004 oil bill.

lwolf

I'd love to get something cheaper and cleaner for sure as well as remove the tank taking up good real estate in the basement.

For anyone wondering why we didn't go w/ the heating oil company who initially serviced the boiler and told us we needed a new one... our thinking was, if there in fact was an issue, you guy have been servicing it for the past 10 years and should have flagged issues a long before we showed up.

We figured holes at the top of the boiler don't happen suddenly so either the previous homeowners ignored the issues or the heating company was looking to pull a fast one on unsuspecting home buyers.

The reality was someplace in between.

nicholas bonham-carter

As you say, the reality was in between. Assuming they were the regular service providers as well, the oil company may well have diagnosed this problem, and notified the previous owners of the problem. Even if the owners had refused regular maintenance, they could still be to blame.
I would notify the owners of the problem, and it’s needed solution. A letter from an attorney would be best.
In the meantime, measure your radiators, so the new boiler can be sized properly, and look for some local steam pro to do the job.
You may be lucky enough to limp through the winter, and then with warm weather, have the time to be more thorough.
We are always here to provide helpful advice.—NBC

lwolf

This forum has been invaluable so i'm back w/ more questions...

We received 2 quotes from a local plumber:

1. Burnham MST513 which includes install and redoing the shoddy pipe work to manufacturer specs. 86% efficiency rating.
2. Swap existing w/ similar Burnham PVH5; utilize existing pipework. 80% efficiency rating.

As you can imagine, option #1 is more expensive. My concern is two fold:

1. There were no measurements of existing rads to ascertain the EDR, so the boiler may be oversized for my house.
2. Can I even trust an installer that would even recommend a swap without a redo of the piping work; the Burnham V8 that I now have was installed in 2007; so no point doing it wrong now.

Am I wrong w/ the above 2 concerns?

I was reading an older post on here last night and someone commented that the install and maintenance and probably more important than the boiler itself. It got me thinking that there are no steam professionals located in Westchester (as noted in find a professional on heatinghelp); maybe I should move away from steam to something where more people routinely service.

I shouldn't know more about this stuff than people I pay to service/install...

ethicalpaul

Knowing what I've learned from this wall over the last few months, if a contractor gave me an estimate for a boiler without measuring every radiator in my house I would show him the door. You may very well know more about steam than he does. I'm sorry if that's strongly worded, but this is no time for gentleness.

This is how so many victims appear on this forum, so please find a real steam professional. And beware of switching, it sounds great on paper, they will only tell you the things you want to hear, but every alternative has its own pitfalls and the same dangers of having it installed incorrectly.

Westchester county NY? There must be a contractor who posts here who services that area?

Edit: I just read back on page 1 and saw @JohnNY's comment about Westchester having a shortage of installers. Maybe you can hire him or another of the folks here to do a consult where they properly measure your EDR and specify a boiler size and the near-boiler piping requirements, and then your plumber can do it to that spec, to be inspected by your steam consultant after install but before final payment? Just throwing it out there

KC_Jones

lwolf said:

This forum has been invaluable so i'm back w/ more questions...

We received 2 quotes from a local plumber:

1. Burnham MST513 which includes install and redoing the shoddy pipe work to manufacturer specs. 86% efficiency rating.
2. Swap existing w/ similar Burnham PVH5; utilize existing pipework. 80% efficiency rating.

As you can imagine, option #1 is more expensive. My concern is two fold:

1. There were no measurements of existing rads to ascertain the EDR, so the boiler may be oversized for my house.
2. Can I even trust an installer that would even recommend a swap without a redo of the piping work; the Burnham V8 that I now have was installed in 2007; so no point doing it wrong now.

Am I wrong w/ the above 2 concerns?

I was reading an older post on here last night and someone commented that the install and maintenance and probably more important than the boiler itself. It got me thinking that there are no steam professionals located in Westchester (as noted in find a professional on heatinghelp); maybe I should move away from steam to something where more people routinely service.

You assume they know how to work on the other systems too. IMHO many do not, the other systems can just be more forgiving of improper installation, especially forced air.

If they didn't measure be concerned. If they suggest reusing that messed up piping you have, be concerned.

lwolf said:

I shouldn't know more about this stuff than people I pay to service/install...

Annoying isn't it? They get paid to not know how to do their job. Send them here and we are happy to educate them.

There is a picture in the manual and they need to follow it. In addition it looks like some of your existing piping needs to go to reconfigure properly.

gfrbrookline

I think the advantage of being a homeowner that understands how our systems work is we are much more in tune with our systems than most contractors that make general assumption based on all of the systems they work on. We live with it every day and get to understand how it works, what tweak fixes a bang here, and what tweak slows a hot rad. There is no way a contractor can truly understand your individual system as well as an educated consumer unless s/he lives in the building. If I had a plumber come out every time I added, moved or slowed down a vent to balance out my system I would be bankrupt. The problem with steam is each system is different and has likely been bastardized over time.

As stated previously, get in touch with @JohnNY. He may not service your area but he can evaluate your system and point you in the right direction.

lwolf

If anyone is still out there, could use some additional advice on how best to proceed.

There’s a strong possibility we’ll be able to run a natgas line to our house and move completely away from oil.

We’ve received a number of quotes and have some decisions to make:

Replace our oil steam boiler w/ a Burnham Megasteam – keeps us on oil. redo piping and replace rads that are leaking – least expensive
Replace oil boiler w/ new natgas fired steam boiler – redo piping and replace rads that are leaking
Replace the entire heating system and go with radiant floors
Replace the entire heating system and go with geothermal – most expensive

My wife is partial to the radiant floor option and since there are no steam techs close to us I’m inclined to move away from it as well at this point. The delta between rehabbing our steam system and going to radiant wasn’t as large as we though so it makes for a smaller pill to swallow. Our house is being renovated so the hurdle of ripping things out isn’t very high.

I finally calculated the current EDR for our 13 Rads and its ~500 vs 512 for our boiler. For the radiant floor, the proposal calls for a Navien NFB-200. Given my understanding of things being oversized… I’m assuming the NFB-200 would be too large for us?

The geothermal guys based on their calcs are assuming we need a 5 ton DX heating and cooling.

Thanks for any feedback.

amitjm1980

Switching to natural gas will definitely save you money and everything will run cleaner. I don't know enough about radiant heat (except electric radiant floor heating which I have in my sunroom) other than the fact that it also needs to be done right by someone who knows what they are doing, otherwise it won't heat your house correctly. Plus it'll work best if your house is well insulated and air tight. I have friends who have it and some of their systems work well and some systems don't. I recently had a cracked steam boiler replaced and I can tell you that when a steam system is installed and balanced correctly (radiator and main vents), it works really well, plus it's a relatively simple system so easy to troubleshoot, especially when all the pipes are exposed. I had the basic installation done but did some work myself like replace all the radiator and main vents, install a better water feeder and low water cutoff, install a low pressure gauge, etc. Those things are relatively easy but still saved me hundreds by doing them myself. My next job will be insulating all the mains.

ethicalpaul

I'm a little surprised that replacing your current steam system with radiant flooring isn't more of a price difference...there must be a lot of labor in putting in a whole-house radiant system.

Also, are you sure you can get NG with the moratorium in Westchester? I hate oil myself, so I agree with your desire to, but https://www.coned.com/en/save-money/convert-to-natural-gas/westchester-natural-gas-moratorium/about-the-westchester-natural-gas-moratorium

I've never had radiant floors, but I have heard they can be kind of awesome so I understand the desire there, but I have been so very happy with the performance of my steam system since I have done the things recommended by the folks here, I would be afraid to yank it out at this point. (Everything here is just my opinion, not an urging for you to go in any particular direction)

Steamhead

And don't forget- with a steam system everything's pretty much where you can get at it if needed. With radiant floors...... no.

KC_Jones

I would get some very specific details about the radiant option. I can't imagine having that done for even close to what a steam boiler would cost. That is considering it being done PROPERLY.

lwolf

@ethicalpaul

We started the process in early January w/ ConEd… as long as you get the paperwork in before 3/15 they’ll honor it. At this point, we just need to sign a contract w/ plumber/HVAC company and we’re good to go.

I’m looking to get details on the kind of radiant, either warmboard or one of the competing products w/ insulation etc.

Radiant is 2.5x more than a simple steam boiler replacement; but we started factoring in the following:

-2 in wall rads w/ leaks need to be replaced (plus wall repair)
-Near boiler piping is terrible and needs to be redone
-Wet returns are terrible (no Hartford loop) needs to be redone
-Steam pipes need to be insulated
-I also can’t fight city hall (wife) anymore. She’s tired of uneven heating and me tinkering in the basement. Also the allure of a blank canvas w/ warm stone tiles in the house is what she focuses on now.
-No close steam professionals to service or system that would give us comfort
-We’re already doing major reno

When we did pros & cons, a new system isn’t nearly as expensive as getting steam back to its former glory.

Jamie Hall

Good luck. Be sure that whoever designs and installs your radiant system is really competent. Radiant, oddly, is probably the least forgiving type of heating system in terms of design or installation errors -- and once it is in place, it is almost impossible to correct problems.

A well designed and installed radiant system is nice to have, granted -- but don't cut any corners anywhere, or, honestly, you will be miserable.

ethicalpaul

OK very cool on the gas (provided it keeps coming out of the pipe--in my former home state of Michigan, they told everyone to put their thermostat at 65 to prevent the system collapsing!! )

I understand about fighting city hall. My wife has complained a bit about my basement time too. I would echo the others about being very careful. I'm still skeptical about the costs being close even after the perceived hassle of steam!

The thing that is on paper and in everyone's mind seems so great...it can turn south fast. Best of luck to you regardless!

KC_Jones

lwolf said:

@ethicalpaul

We started the process in early January w/ ConEd… as long as you get the paperwork in before 3/15 they’ll honor it. At this point, we just need to sign a contract w/ plumber/HVAC company and we’re good to go.

I’m looking to get details on the kind of radiant, either warmboard or one of the competing products w/ insulation etc.

Radiant is 2.5x more than a simple steam boiler replacement; but we started factoring in the following:

-2 in wall rads w/ leaks need to be replaced (plus wall repair)
-Near boiler piping is terrible and needs to be redone
-Wet returns are terrible (no Hartford loop) needs to be redone
-Steam pipes need to be insulated
-I also can’t fight city hall (wife) anymore. She’s tired of uneven heating and me tinkering in the basement. Also the allure of a blank canvas w/ warm stone tiles in the house is what she focuses on now.
-No close steam professionals to service or system that would give us comfort
-We’re already doing major reno

When we did pros & cons, a new system isn’t nearly as expensive as getting steam back to its former glory.

Keep in mind to do radiant, and hydronics for that matter is infinitely more complex than a steam system, so make sure you choose the contractor very wisely. You already have a contractor suggesting a 200k BTU boiler for the radiant, which, unless you live in a mansion, is massively over sized. If they can't be bothered to even size the boiler properly I wouldn't even think about letting them install the radiant system.

Again no matter what the choice, choose very wisely. We see plenty of radiant horror stories on this site also.

lwolf

@KC_Jones

If all we had to do was replace the boiler this would be a no-brainer for us… since I last reset the LWCO in early January, we’ve used close to 600 gallons of water (not including any manual top offs we do). City Hall also sees this number and knows that its water pulling from the well plus electricity that just goes up the chimney… think the convincing ship has sailed.

Agreed on the contractor. I’ve already gone back on the specific Navien model from the NFB-200 to the NHB-150… you guys have given me a little bit of knowledge so I’m better informed to ask questions. So now I read and re-read until I have a basic understanding of these heating options.

From a heat loss perspective I used one of the online spreadsheets and calculated ~52.5k design loss (BTU/hr). We plan on improving the insulation (spray foam, tackle attic, etc) so hoping to reduce that design loss number by a decent amount.

Given the above estimates on current EDR & design loss, what’s a reasonably size for a new hot water boiler (or steam boiler for that matter)?

This is one of my big concerns w/ steam… outside of this forum, the only local resource I have would be the oil company that still installs/services oil boilers. They aren’t going to be happy when I no longer need their oil in a few months.

KC_Jones

If your design loss is 52.5 then a 150 is close to triple the size you need.

The 52.5 is the number you work from to size the boiler. If they are starting at 200k good luck with them doing it correctly.

I have a feeling your issues with competent steam contractors will be the same for hot water contractors. It's a terrible situation to be sure.

JUGHNE

After 40 years of marriage some wives do not want their husband to come out of the basement.

lwolf

@KC_Jones

Another data point, thank you. I suppose that’s why using the existing boiler sizing never made sense.

I’m confused… in hypothetical where we stick w/ steam. My current EDR (13 radiators) is 498 and my Burnham btu is 512. Would I be replacing like for like or looking to size down my boiler assuming I improve all my insulation to something close to 75btu?

I was led to believe that the EDR dictated boiler size.

Unless the heat loss exceeds 100k btu an hour I’d be over-sized?

ethicalpaul

You size a steam boiler to your radiation EDR, not to heat loss (unless you are going to be changing your radiation).

So 512 vs 498 is just fine if you are comparing net EDR of the boiler to the EDR of your radiation. You concern me where you said "My current EDR (13 radiators) is 498 and my Burnham btu is 512" You might have mistakenly said "btu" there, but BTU does not equal EDR

> we’ve used close to 600 gallons of water (not including any manual top offs we do). City Hall also sees this number and knows that its water pulling from the well plus electricity that just goes up the chimney… think the convincing ship has sailed.

That's just not fair, you are blaming steam as a heat source because your boiler had a hole in it

lwolf

The water usage is what City Hall sees… I don’t blame steam. Honestly I’d rather do the least amount to the system if I could since we didn’t discover the true state of the boiler until after we purchased the house.

Jamie Hall

Your problem isn't steam heat -- it's City Hall. And what City Hall wants, City Hall gets -- but it will either cost you a good deal more than restoring the steam heat or you will get a lousy job; take your pick. I would suggest taking a very deep breath and a second mortgage, and spend some time finding the best radiant system designer you can, get the system -- including all the piping and pumps and boiler an heat transfer plates and what not -- designed, and then find the best contractor you can find to install it.

lwolf

Spoke w/ radiant floor company and they are proposing Navien-175; they would calibrate the water temp to a lower temperature to ensure condensing (indicated the benefit of the 10:1 turn down ratio).

The NFB series only comes in 2 sizes (175 & 200) and is the latest that Navien offering which is why the NHB series which comes in different sizes isn’t being recommended.

Sound reasonable?

clammy

Just a side note if u think ur having a issue finding qualified steam gurus good luck finding someone to do retro fitting radiant system that will perform when it’s 10 outside and not bow your floors or create the legendary hot foot . Stick w steam get the properly sized boiler straighten out the near boiler piping use both tappings on the boiler into a oversized header get rid of what looks like a 2 1/2 x 2 reducing coupling on the horizontal andget those pipes insulated 1 inch wall mimiun then I would worry about balancing with out insulation it difficult at best even w a oversized header and low boiler exit velocity the steam just condensense form vacuume sucks more steam some times bangs and cause poor distrubition and also it helps promote condensate grooving in your mains . Every job that I do i insulate near boiler and system piping drastic improvements you can put some clothes back on in the basement and take them off upstairs where the heat suppose to be peace and good luck clammy get dans books limp your boiler along for the winter and come warmer days update your stuff I would get the wheels turn8ng on that gas line

luketheplumber

just saying salvage the good radiators they can sell for good money dont just scrap them

KC_Jones

lwolf said:

Spoke w/ radiant floor company and they are proposing Navien-175; they would calibrate the water temp to a lower temperature to ensure condensing (indicated the benefit of the 10:1 turn down ratio).

The NFB series only comes in 2 sizes (175 & 200) and is the latest that Navien offering which is why the NHB series which comes in different sizes isn’t being recommended.

Sound reasonable?

No.

Then they need to go to a different model that comes in a smaller output or a different brand.

If your heat loss is 52k then that is the max you need, not 175. You won't find one that small so the closest you can get is your best option. The turndown ratio allows you to go lower on milder days, but over sizing limits how low you can go.

You can drive a Mack truck to work daily, but is that a good idea?

My suggestion, find a new contractor, yours doesn't understand how it works. The other details of radiant are much more complex versus boiler sizing, so if they can't get that right what do you think they will do with the rest?

You are concerned about lack of qualified contractors for steam, but from the little you have posted you are working with someone not qualified to work on hot water.

coelcanth

how about restoring the steam system but adding a hot water loop for one or two rooms to make the boss happy ?

mikeg2015

Cast iron steam boilers last a lot longer than a wall mount boiler. Normally 2x all things being equal. Something to consider.

Under floor radiant isn’t that hard. There
S good practices to follow for spacing and staple up tubing. But I don’t see much advantage over steam. If anything its less desireable. Efficiency will only be marginally higher in the real world. Maybe 4%

lwolf

It’s been awhile since I last posted. We made it through the rest of the heating season w/ the thermostat set to 61 and then off the moment April rolled around. Being perpetually cold in your house is very unpleasant.

The NatGas line has been installed and our plumbing company was able to remove the steam heating system. I’m a bit sad to see a 70+ year system gone but think long run term it was the right choice for us.

We’re still debating between do hot water rads or radiant but having our walls empty looks nice.

I’ll try and answer any questions people might have as a way to give back to the great support I received here.