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Can your thermostat do this?

ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 9,516Member
Hmm? :)
Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment

Comments

  • ratioratio Posts: 1,885Member
    Look for steam coming out of your chimney. It's possible that the water is leaking out in a buried return under the floor somewhere, I've had good luck finding underground leaks with a thermal camera...
    HA! gotta love programmable inputs!
  • JohnNYJohnNY Posts: 2,192Member
    Wow! Did you make that happen yourself? That's a VERY cool feature.
    For installations, troubleshooting, and private consulting services, find John "JohnNY" Cataneo here at :
    "72°F Mechanical, LLC"
    Or email John at [email protected]
    John is a professional Master Plumber, licensed by The Department of Buildings of The City of New York, and works extensively in NYC while consulting for clients in and out of state.
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Posts: 1,904Member
    @ratio
    I dont think he has a leak, he's just showing how cool (or warm) he is with his new Christmas present.
    That is pretty cool.

    @ChrisJ
    Does it wire into a LWCO aquastat, or are there dry contacts on the thermostat?
    How do it do that?
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Posts: 1,406Member
    Steam guys and their low water.....sheeeeesh..... 🙄
    Master electrician specialising in boiler and burner controls, multiple fuel systems, radiant system controls, building controls, and universal refrigeration tech.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 9,516Member
    > @HVACNUT said:
    > @ratio
    > I dont think he has a leak, he's just showing how cool (or warm) he is with his new Christmas present.
    > That is pretty cool.
    >
    > @ChrisJ
    > Does it wire into a LWCO aquastat, or are there dry contacts on the thermostat?
    > How do it do that?

    No Christmas present, I've had it for two seasons but never got around to hooking it up until now

    I've got a relay hooked to the lwco which is connected to one of the dry contacts on the Prestige.

    It's really easy to setup.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Posts: 1,364Member
    I'm going in the opposite direction...

    Had Trane Z-Wave Tstat, went to Robert Shaw WiFi Tstat.. and finally time warped back to a 30yo mechanical mercury switch T87F for my no-setback downstairs zone. Found a nice NOS unit on ebay for $29. No more flipping on and off when someone walks by it. Best Tstat for a mod-con with no setback.


  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 9,516Member
    edited December 2018
    > @NY_Rob said:
    > I'm going in the opposite direction...
    >
    > Had Trane Z-Wave Tstat, went to Robert Shaw WiFi Tstat.. and finally time warped back to a 30yo mechanical mercury switch T87F for my no-setback downstairs zone. Found a nice NOS unit on ebay for $29. No more flipping on and off when someone walks by it. Best Tstat for a mod-con with no setback.

    The Prestige doesn't do anything on its own unless you program it. I also have it running my A/C and it measures the temp drop across my evaporator.

    I'm also using an outdoor thermometer with it and 3 wireless indoor sensors for temperature averaging in 4 rooms.

    It also doesn't have internet unless you buy and install a gateway for it. I did because I want remote monitoring when I'm away. But the point is for those that fear it, it's not built in.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Posts: 1,364Member
    ^ I actually have no issues with the connectivity aspect of modern Tstats, it's the crappy algorithms they use to make a call for heat and the tiny/no-mass thermistors they have to sense room temps. Walk by one and they turn on, or off... only to do the opposite three min later once the slight breeze you caused walking past the unit has ceased.

    How about the brilliant design of the Robert Shaw Tstats where you can "add on" a WiFi module...
    The engineers saw fit to place the optional snap in WiFi module on the bottom of the Tstat where the AA batteries would go without the WiFi module... literally right under the Tstat's room temp sensing thermistor. What do you think happens to the room temp sensor once the WiFi module heats up after an hour or so? After running the Tstat overnight our bedroom was 62F even though the Tstat display showed 70F. I shot the WiFi module with my IR temp gun... it read 86F in some places. And that's a device they place directly on the bottom of the Tstat under it's temp sensor! Brilliant design! That also kind of explains the poor control software that lets the Tstat turn on/off the heat when someone walks by the unit- only to reverse it's decision minutes later needlessly cycling your boiler, and the poor choice of a ultra low mass/fast reacting thermistor for room temp sensing. Poor software design, poor hardware choices, poor software/hardware integration.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 9,516Member
    > @NY_Rob said:
    > ^ I actually have no issues with the connectivity aspect of modern Tstats, it's the crappy algorithms they use to make a call for heat and the tiny/no-mass thermistors they have to sense room temps. Walk by one and they turn on, or off... only to do the opposite three min later once the slight breeze you caused walking past the unit has ceased.
    >
    > How about the brilliant design of the Robert Shaw Tstats where you can "add on" a WiFi module...
    > The engineers saw fit to place the optional snap in WiFi module on the bottom of the Tstat where the AA batteries would go without the WiFi module... literally right under the Tstat's room temp sensing thermistor. What do you think happens to the room temp sensor once the WiFi module heats up after an hour or so? After running the Tstat overnight our bedroom was 62F even though the Tstat display showed 70F. I shot the WiFi module with my IR temp gun... it read 86F in some places. And that's a device they place directly on the bottom of the Tstat under it's temp sensor! Brilliant design! That also kind of explains the poor control software that lets the Tstat turn on/off the heat when someone walks by the unit- only to reverse it's decision minutes later needlessly cycling your boiler, and the poor choice of a ultra low mass/fast reacting thermistor for room temp sensing. Poor software design, poor hardware choices, poor software/hardware integration.

    I don't know about those stats, but the green screen visionpros I had apart used a surface mount thermistor which means it essentially used the mass of the pcb. I have no problems with them.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Posts: 1,406Member
    I have installed many visionPro's and have absolutely no complaints or issues.

    The focusPro is my go to digital t-stat if customer doesn't want wi-fi. Always run the C-wire and not rely on batteries whenever possible.
    Master electrician specialising in boiler and burner controls, multiple fuel systems, radiant system controls, building controls, and universal refrigeration tech.
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Posts: 1,364Member
    I have a VisionPRO TH8320WF sitting unused (bought it new last year). Maybe I'll give it a try for upstairs where I do use some night setback for sleeping comfort.
    I do like the option for a remote 10K Ohm thermistor for outdoor temp sensor. I have a bunch of those sitting around collecting dust.
  • ratioratio Posts: 1,885Member
    The Honeywell phone app has a built-in demo account, if you want to take it for a spin.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 9,516Member
    Those who repeatedly bring up the old T87F on here and talk about how great its anticipator is never mention the fact the anticipator is a fixed setting that won't adjust with conditions. They also never mention what it's temperature swing is.

    We have 3 or 4 where I work. The first thing I did when I got there was replace the office one with a Green screen VP8000. I also used to have one in my house. All Mercury type.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • vaporvacvaporvac Posts: 1,516Member
    I really appreciate the remote feature of the Honeywell Tstats after having been out of state for months at a time over the winter of 2017. My main complaint about mine is it only has one cycle for steam and then jumps to three for HW. With my vaporvacuum system, 2 cycles would be ideal when keeping lower temps inside or when it's just midling cold outside.
    Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
    Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF
  • FredFred Posts: 7,733Member
    @vaporvac , where on earth have you been??? Welcome back!
  • SuperJSuperJ Posts: 465Member
    ChrisJ said:

    Those who repeatedly bring up the old T87F on here and talk about how great its anticipator is never mention the fact the anticipator is a fixed setting that won't adjust with conditions. They also never mention what it's temperature swing is.



    We have 3 or 4 where I work. The first thing I did when I got there was replace the office one with a Green screen VP8000. I also used to have one in my house. All Mercury type.

    I'll bite at the bait :)
    For the record I don't actually use a T87F (VP8000 and Ecobee for me), but I admire their design.
    I would argue that adjusting to conditions is exactly what an anticipator does. Since the deadband is basically time sensitive, you get a nice tight "temperature swing" or maintenance band without cycling your equipment to death. The "turn on offset" shrinks with time off as the anticipator cools off following the last run cycle. During a call for heat the "turn off offset" starts high and shrinks with with run time as the anticipator heats up. Properly set up it's very elegant and simple, and beats fixed beadbands/offsets.

    I'll grant the better stats (once with CPH or PID) can effectively match the mechanical anticipator stats. And have a bunch of reliability advantages.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 9,516Member
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Posts: 10,027Member
    @SuperJ 's comments on the anticipator are correct. That said, it may take some time and some "fiddling" to get it set properly; the numbers on the dial (if one can even read them) are theoretically related to the current draw of the controlled device, but only as a starting point. For best results, it has to be tweaked over a period of time -- ideally several days -- so the human intelligence doing the tweaking can get it set so that it responds in a similar way to the heating system and space in which it is located.

    It should also be noted that some of the modern burner controls draw very little current, and it may be difficult to get it set to respond properly as a result.

    This, of course, assumes that there is a human intelligence around who can respond to what the system is doing, and has the patience and time to do it. An assumption which, in our modern plug and play, get in, hook it up, get out world is often not available -- or affordable.

    Which is an excellent reason for the advent of "learning" thermostats, such as the advanced VisionPros being mentioned. In principle they can adjust themselves for the correct anticipation. This, however, takes a number of cycles -- it is a process of successive approximation -- and a power loss or manual fiddling can force them to start all over.

    Ideally one would want a system which had inputs for the characteristics of the heating system and the space, and which had a carefully shielded remote sensor (or sensors) which fed temperature to the computer, which would then use both the actual temperature offset from the setpoint but also the rate at which the temperature was approaching the set point, plus the information about the heating system and the space, to determine when to shut the burner (or whatever) off. No reason it can't be done -- the math isn't that hard, and programming a small computer (which would fit into a reasonable control unit easily) to do it wouldn't be all that hard either. Gathering the required system and space information would take time, though, and I can't imagine it being done as a normal sort of thing...
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • KC_JonesKC_Jones Posts: 4,053Member
    Eastman said:

    @ChrisJ
    What kind of camera did Spirax Sarco use to shoot inside a steam boiler for their videos? That's what you need. Some kind of internal high temperature camera to monitor the boil. Feed that live into your home entertainment system.

    We are regularly putting GoPro cameras into a steam environment in our labs and they are holding up just fine. We were all shocked, but during some troubleshooting the attitude was if it fails oh well. They have done so well we bought several more to install. Those things are pretty incredible.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10202744301871904.1073741828.1330391881&type=1&l=c34ad6ee78
  • SuperTechSuperTech Posts: 937Member
    I've gotta try this thing where you walk by the thermostat and it makes the boiler cycle on. I'm going to try it who get home.
    I thought only Nests could do that
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