Replacement boiler not working as well as old one

ptomasi

I recently had a 32yr old Weil-McLain EG-40 replaced with a PEG-40.
The new plumber felt that the way the old system was plumbed in was not appropriate so they made some changes. Now when the system runs the water in my sight glass bobs up and down the whole time the system is running. The old boiler never did that ever. The other issue is that the basement is now the warmest room in the house.

This photo shows the original piping with red arrows(sorry I forgot to snap a photo before they started pulling the dead boiler out)
And yes I am aware that this one was not correct but it worked well for 32 years.

Red arrows are where the old piping was connected.

The new plumbing is in the photos below, the steam makes a couple of 90 degree turns before the main that goes to the rest of the house. They also added a pipe so that the condensate would not flow back down through the top of the boiler. This was just completed yesterday and I am not sure it's even close to correct. Any help would be appreciated.




This shows the extra piping that was added to connect into the pipe connecting to the botom the hartford loop







By the way, I have read Dan's book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" and from what I read something just seems incorrect.

Thanks.
Peter

Snowmelt

I don't think that's done correctly at all. whats the second tee , is that an attempt at a return? either way if you pull out the manual I don't think that's done correctly at all?

HVACNUT

Before or after?
Which one is worse?
Hint: Its a trick question.

If you read Dan's book, you should have locked your door when you saw them unloading the large copper.

They need to return and pipe it correctly and using black pipe instead of copper.

Any pipe dope or flux smudges on the manual or is it still in the bag?

Dave0176

> @HVACNUT said:
> Before or after?
> Which one is worse?
> Hint: Its a trick question.
>
> If you read Dan's book, you should have locked your door when you saw them unloading the large copper.
>
> They need to return and pipe it correctly and using black pipe instead of copper.
>
> Any pipe dope or flux smudges on the manual or is it still in the bag?

And that boiler requires a minimum of a 2-1/2” header.

Jamie Hall

Pretty much all wrong...

nicholas bonham-carter

Layout of the piping-wrong.
Size of the piping-wrong.
Choice of pipe materials-wrong, especially with the joint method.
Maybe even the boiler sizing-wrong-what’s the radiator EDR?
Now would be the time to remove the plug on the skim port, and put in a nipple, and ball valve, or at least a cap for the final cleaning.
How did you find these people?—NBC

KC_Jones

There is a picture in the manual of how it’s supposed to be done, why, why is this so hard?

To the OP it’s incorrect in every way, you absolutely don’t want it like it used to be either. What you want is what you are paying for, a proper installation.

The bouncing is because the boiler needs skimmed (instructions also in the manual), but the skim port isn’t installed so that will be difficult.

I am hoping you have not made final payment.

ptomasi

Thanks for the comments so far. I was there when they opened the skim port and drained all the glop 6 or so buckets worth. That said he may have not done that right either. I will have a chat with the owner on Monday. Payment has not been made yet as the inspector has to do his thing.

KC_Jones

ptomasi said:

Payment has not been made yet as the inspector has to do his thing.

I wouldn't make that payment until it's piped properly. Start with no copper and gauge their reaction, then see where it goes.

Did they even pull out the manual during the install?

My prediction, you will get some variation of the following.
"I've been doing this for X amount of years"
"We do it like this all the time and it's never a problem"
"That's the way steam is supposed to be it's old"

ptomasi

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Layout of the piping-wrong.
Size of the piping-wrong.
Choice of pipe materials-wrong, especially with the joint method.
Maybe even the boiler sizing-wrong-what’s the radiator EDR?
Now would be the time to remove the plug on the skim port, and put in a nipple, and ball valve, or at least a cap for the final cleaning.
How did you find these people?—NBC

I am relatively certain that the size is correct, the radiator calculations require 325sq ft of steam and the boiler output is exactly 325. There is no need for extra as there are always 2 radiators turned off at any given time. As far as the company we have been using them for the last 15years. Up till now, I have been really happy with the work.

BobC

Page 17 of the install manual is very clear about how the boiler should be piped. I'll be they just don't want to bother (or even have) a pipe threader that goes above 2 inches. The inspector is usually only concerned with the gas piping, they really don't care about much else so don't rely on them to do anything about the steam piping.

The key here is you have to INSIST the copper above the boiler water line goes away and gets replaced by threaded steel OF THE RIGHT SIZE. The manual is clear about what size pipe to use and that is the MINIMUM acceptable pipe sizing, using a larger header is always better. Make sure they understand no further payment will be made until this is done. Start off pleasant and increase your ire if they buck you, withholding final payment is usually a big enough stick to get their compliance.

Bob

Dave0176

Most likely, unfortunately, that boiler only comes with a single tapping steam supply as Weil-McLain stopped tapping the second riser. However should you have it repiped, I would use a 3" riser into a 3" header, that gives you 14.07 FPS of steam which is respectable.

ptomasi

Not sure anyone is still reading this, the saga continues. Still waiting for the contractor to return. In the meantime, the new symptom is that the boiler is running itself down to low water cutoff. There are no leaking radiators, no steam escaping any valves.

My thoughts are to test the system by doing a pressure test to say 2 to 3lbs with all the radiator valves closed to see if the escaping steam can be located. Would this be an acceptable testing method? My thought is that the boiler may have been damaged in transit?

And no, there has been no final payment nor has the inspection taken place yet, let alone me seeing the actual building permit that they plumbing contractor obtained.

pecmsg

Go to the building dept and request a copy!

ethicalpaul

Everyone is still reading this 😅 We all hope you stay strong and just keep pointing to the manual.

When the water goes low does it come back after the heat cycle or is it just gone?

KC_Jones

ptomasi said:

Not sure anyone is still reading this, the saga continues. Still waiting for the contractor to return. In the meantime, the new symptom is that the boiler is running itself down to low water cutoff. There are no leaking radiators, no steam escaping any valves.

My thoughts are to test the system by doing a pressure test to say 2 to 3lbs with all the radiator valves closed to see if the escaping steam can be located. Would this be an acceptable testing method? My thought is that the boiler may have been damaged in transit?

And no, there has been no final payment nor has the inspection taken place yet, let alone me seeing the actual building permit that they plumbing contractor obtained.

Is it getting low, cutting out on low water, then the water returns and it fires back up again? Or is it running low, cutting off, then refilling with fresh water?

The Steam Whisperer

There is a problem with using the WM installation manual as a reference.... It only says RECOMMENDED PIPING, not required piping and it says nothing about the material to be used or if it is threaded, welded,or joined with chewing gum. This allows the installer to do whatever they please. Some manufacturer's say required piping, some only recommended. The only requirement is that the steam supply be on the same end as the controls. This requirement seems to be backwards since the water line will be highest on the end with the supply so the low water cut offs won't protect the boiler as well.

ptomasi

ethicalpaul said:

Everyone is still reading this 😅 We all hope you stay strong and just keep pointing to the manual.



When the water goes low does it come back after the heat cycle or is it just gone?

When the boiler goes into low water cut off, that is the end. The water is gone to never return. I have now added water on Sunday and Tuesday, Granted Sunday I only added an inch or so. Yesterday I added near 3 inches.
As an aside, the sad part here is my plumber has taken 2 of Dan's classes and has his book.

ethicalpaul

ptomasi said:

ethicalpaul said:

Everyone is still reading this 😅 We all hope you stay strong and just keep pointing to the manual.



When the water goes low does it come back after the heat cycle or is it just gone?

When the boiler goes into low water cut off, that is the end. The water is gone to never return. I have now added water on Sunday and Tuesday, Granted Sunday I only added an inch or so. Yesterday I added near 3 inches.
As an aside, the sad part here is my plumber has taken 2 of Dan's classes and has his book.

Well that's actually a plus. Now you can point to the pertinent
parts of Dan's book!

nicholas bonham-carter

You can turn the boiler off, then overfill until the header runs cold, and wait for a couple of hours. Inspect the bottom of the boiler, and any visible parts of the wet return. for any signs of leakage.
More accuracy could be obtained by putting a long vertical nipple on the pressure relief valve tapping, and filling up to the very top, so you can see any water drop during the test time.
Water on the floor=boiler leak.
Dry floor, but lowered level in pipe=leaking returns.
If that test reveals nothing, then fire the boiler up, and check each main vent, inlet valve, and radiator vent for steam leaks with a hand mirror which shows condensation more easily.—NBC