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Replacement boiler not working as well as old one

I recently had a 32yr old Weil-McLain EG-40 replaced with a PEG-40.
The new plumber felt that the way the old system was plumbed in was not appropriate so they made some changes. Now when the system runs the water in my sight glass bobs up and down the whole time the system is running. The old boiler never did that ever. The other issue is that the basement is now the warmest room in the house.

This photo shows the original piping with red arrows(sorry I forgot to snap a photo before they started pulling the dead boiler out)
And yes I am aware that this one was not correct but it worked well for 32 years.

Red arrows are where the old piping was connected.

The new plumbing is in the photos below, the steam makes a couple of 90 degree turns before the main that goes to the rest of the house. They also added a pipe so that the condensate would not flow back down through the top of the boiler. This was just completed yesterday and I am not sure it's even close to correct. Any help would be appreciated.




This shows the extra piping that was added to connect into the pipe connecting to the botom the hartford loop







By the way, I have read Dan's book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" and from what I read something just seems incorrect.

Thanks.
Peter

Comments

  • SnowmeltSnowmelt Posts: 1,061Member
    I don't think that's done correctly at all. whats the second tee , is that an attempt at a return? either way if you pull out the manual I don't think that's done correctly at all?
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Posts: 2,036Member
    Before or after?
    Which one is worse?
    Hint: Its a trick question.

    If you read Dan's book, you should have locked your door when you saw them unloading the large copper.

    They need to return and pipe it correctly and using black pipe instead of copper.

    Any pipe dope or flux smudges on the manual or is it still in the bag?
  • Dave0176Dave0176 Posts: 1,039Member
    > @HVACNUT said:
    > Before or after?
    > Which one is worse?
    > Hint: Its a trick question.
    >
    > If you read Dan's book, you should have locked your door when you saw them unloading the large copper.
    >
    > They need to return and pipe it correctly and using black pipe instead of copper.
    >
    > Any pipe dope or flux smudges on the manual or is it still in the bag?

    And that boiler requires a minimum of a 2-1/2” header.
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Posts: 10,279Member
    Pretty much all wrong...
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • nicholas bonham-carternicholas bonham-carter Posts: 7,817Member
    edited December 2018
    Layout of the piping-wrong.
    Size of the piping-wrong.
    Choice of pipe materials-wrong, especially with the joint method.
    Maybe even the boiler sizing-wrong-what’s the radiator EDR?
    Now would be the time to remove the plug on the skim port, and put in a nipple, and ball valve, or at least a cap for the final cleaning.
    How did you find these people?—NBC
  • KC_JonesKC_Jones Posts: 4,093Member
    There is a picture in the manual of how it’s supposed to be done, why, why is this so hard?

    To the OP it’s incorrect in every way, you absolutely don’t want it like it used to be either. What you want is what you are paying for, a proper installation.

    The bouncing is because the boiler needs skimmed (instructions also in the manual), but the skim port isn’t installed so that will be difficult.

    I am hoping you have not made final payment.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10202744301871904.1073741828.1330391881&type=1&l=c34ad6ee78
  • ptomasiptomasi Posts: 5Member
    edited December 2018
    Thanks for the comments so far. I was there when they opened the skim port and drained all the glop 6 or so buckets worth. That said he may have not done that right either. I will have a chat with the owner on Monday. Payment has not been made yet as the inspector has to do his thing.
  • KC_JonesKC_Jones Posts: 4,093Member
    ptomasi said:

    Payment has not been made yet as the inspector has to do his thing.

    I wouldn't make that payment until it's piped properly. Start with no copper and gauge their reaction, then see where it goes.

    Did they even pull out the manual during the install?

    My prediction, you will get some variation of the following.
    "I've been doing this for X amount of years"
    "We do it like this all the time and it's never a problem"
    "That's the way steam is supposed to be it's old"
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10202744301871904.1073741828.1330391881&type=1&l=c34ad6ee78
  • ptomasiptomasi Posts: 5Member

    Layout of the piping-wrong.
    Size of the piping-wrong.
    Choice of pipe materials-wrong, especially with the joint method.
    Maybe even the boiler sizing-wrong-what’s the radiator EDR?
    Now would be the time to remove the plug on the skim port, and put in a nipple, and ball valve, or at least a cap for the final cleaning.
    How did you find these people?—NBC

    I am relatively certain that the size is correct, the radiator calculations require 325sq ft of steam and the boiler output is exactly 325. There is no need for extra as there are always 2 radiators turned off at any given time. As far as the company we have been using them for the last 15years. Up till now, I have been really happy with the work.
  • BobCBobC Posts: 4,946Member
    Page 17 of the install manual is very clear about how the boiler should be piped. I'll be they just don't want to bother (or even have) a pipe threader that goes above 2 inches. The inspector is usually only concerned with the gas piping, they really don't care about much else so don't rely on them to do anything about the steam piping.

    The key here is you have to INSIST the copper above the boiler water line goes away and gets replaced by threaded steel OF THE RIGHT SIZE. The manual is clear about what size pipe to use and that is the MINIMUM acceptable pipe sizing, using a larger header is always better. Make sure they understand no further payment will be made until this is done. Start off pleasant and increase your ire if they buck you, withholding final payment is usually a big enough stick to get their compliance.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Dave0176Dave0176 Posts: 1,039Member
    Most likely, unfortunately, that boiler only comes with a single tapping steam supply as Weil-McLain stopped tapping the second riser. However should you have it repiped, I would use a 3" riser into a 3" header, that gives you 14.07 FPS of steam which is respectable.
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
  • ptomasiptomasi Posts: 5Member
    edited December 2018
    Not sure anyone is still reading this, the saga continues. Still waiting for the contractor to return. In the meantime, the new symptom is that the boiler is running itself down to low water cutoff. There are no leaking radiators, no steam escaping any valves.

    My thoughts are to test the system by doing a pressure test to say 2 to 3lbs with all the radiator valves closed to see if the escaping steam can be located. Would this be an acceptable testing method? My thought is that the boiler may have been damaged in transit?

    And no, there has been no final payment nor has the inspection taken place yet, let alone me seeing the actual building permit that they plumbing contractor obtained.
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 681Member
    Go to the building dept and request a copy!

  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Posts: 661Member
    Everyone is still reading this 😅 We all hope you stay strong and just keep pointing to the manual.

    When the water goes low does it come back after the heat cycle or is it just gone?
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, 1913 coal > oil > NG
  • KC_JonesKC_Jones Posts: 4,093Member
    ptomasi said:

    Not sure anyone is still reading this, the saga continues. Still waiting for the contractor to return. In the meantime, the new symptom is that the boiler is running itself down to low water cutoff. There are no leaking radiators, no steam escaping any valves.

    My thoughts are to test the system by doing a pressure test to say 2 to 3lbs with all the radiator valves closed to see if the escaping steam can be located. Would this be an acceptable testing method? My thought is that the boiler may have been damaged in transit?

    And no, there has been no final payment nor has the inspection taken place yet, let alone me seeing the actual building permit that they plumbing contractor obtained.

    Is it getting low, cutting out on low water, then the water returns and it fires back up again? Or is it running low, cutting off, then refilling with fresh water?
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10202744301871904.1073741828.1330391881&type=1&l=c34ad6ee78
  • There is a problem with using the WM installation manual as a reference.... It only says RECOMMENDED PIPING, not required piping and it says nothing about the material to be used or if it is threaded, welded,or joined with chewing gum. This allows the installer to do whatever they please. Some manufacturer's say required piping, some only recommended. The only requirement is that the steam supply be on the same end as the controls. This requirement seems to be backwards since the water line will be highest on the end with the supply so the low water cut offs won't protect the boiler as well.
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • ptomasiptomasi Posts: 5Member
    edited December 2018

    Everyone is still reading this 😅 We all hope you stay strong and just keep pointing to the manual.



    When the water goes low does it come back after the heat cycle or is it just gone?

    When the boiler goes into low water cut off, that is the end. The water is gone to never return. I have now added water on Sunday and Tuesday, Granted Sunday I only added an inch or so. Yesterday I added near 3 inches.
    As an aside, the sad part here is my plumber has taken 2 of Dan's classes and has his book.
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Posts: 661Member
    ptomasi said:

    Everyone is still reading this 😅 We all hope you stay strong and just keep pointing to the manual.



    When the water goes low does it come back after the heat cycle or is it just gone?

    When the boiler goes into low water cut off, that is the end. The water is gone to never return. I have now added water on Sunday and Tuesday, Granted Sunday I only added an inch or so. Yesterday I added near 3 inches.
    As an aside, the sad part here is my plumber has taken 2 of Dan's classes and has his book.
    Well that's actually a plus. Now you can point to the pertinent
    parts of Dan's book! :smiley:
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, 1913 coal > oil > NG
  • You can turn the boiler off, then overfill until the header runs cold, and wait for a couple of hours. Inspect the bottom of the boiler, and any visible parts of the wet return. for any signs of leakage.
    More accuracy could be obtained by putting a long vertical nipple on the pressure relief valve tapping, and filling up to the very top, so you can see any water drop during the test time.
    Water on the floor=boiler leak.
    Dry floor, but lowered level in pipe=leaking returns.
    If that test reveals nothing, then fire the boiler up, and check each main vent, inlet valve, and radiator vent for steam leaks with a hand mirror which shows condensation more easily.—NBC
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