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Is this a normal operating condition

hot rod_7hot rod_7 Posts: 8,845Member
?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
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Comments

  • CanuckerCanucker Posts: 460Member
    Dry fire? That's scary looking
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
  • GordyGordy Posts: 8,234Member
    As with any hydronic heating question depends :D I’ll bet the radiant heat effect is wonderful on a cold winters day B)

    So what gives? Looks like dry fire.
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Posts: 4,840Member
    It is pretty awesome if you are a 1000 miles away. :o
  • Rich_49Rich_49 Posts: 2,509Member
    >:)
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC 732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey , Eastern Pa .
    Consultation , Design & Installation
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • GordyGordy Posts: 8,234Member
    The gas line is a scary proximity to the event. I see the paint isn’t brown yet.
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Posts: 1,136Member
    Ah, the large barrel stove with pipes coming out of it! Looks like a nice toasty fire you have sirs! Keep up the good work.
    Master electrician specialising in boiler and burner controls, multiple fuel systems, radiant system controls, building controls, and universal refrigeration tech.
  • GrallertGrallert Posts: 231Member
    oh jeez that's scary.
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Posts: 8,750Member
    I hope you were using a very long telephoto lens...
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • 1Matthias1Matthias Posts: 96Member
    edited November 9

    I hope you were using a very long telephoto lens...

    You couldn't get me in that building for any sum, much less close enough to take a photo...

  • Stephen MinnichStephen Minnich Posts: 2,098Member
    If I saw that I’d do a 180 and run like hell.
    Steve Minnich
  • Stephen MinnichStephen Minnich Posts: 2,098Member
    Imaging camera with a small target?
    Steve Minnich
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Posts: 1,136Member
    I agree, in all seriousness that's one of the scariest things i've ever seen. That has the potential to level that place and possibly more.....
    Master electrician specialising in boiler and burner controls, multiple fuel systems, radiant system controls, building controls, and universal refrigeration tech.
  • GordyGordy Posts: 8,234Member
    edited November 10
    The more I look at the photo, I’m starting to think photoshopped. With the flammable items in the foreground, coupled with the fact there should be heat waves distorting objects in the background above the boiler. Also there should be some smoke from the paint burning off.
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Posts: 1,136Member
    I thought the same thing, but there seems to be a red reflection off the gas piping. There also looks to be burnt paint, or possibly just the photoshop image overlay too...
    Master electrician specialising in boiler and burner controls, multiple fuel systems, radiant system controls, building controls, and universal refrigeration tech.
  • GordyGordy Posts: 8,234Member
    I think the paint is the overlay of the photoshop attempt. Red hot like that the paint should be scorched on the sides to, and above. Most people would be looking to shut that beast down verses getting a picture :D
  • GordyGordy Posts: 8,234Member
    edited November 10
    However there are some real photographers that just make it a priority over 1st steps. Clean your dryer lint.........

    Honey do you have time to call 911? I gotta get a picture of this!
  • HomerJSmithHomerJSmith Posts: 477Member
    I'll bring the hot dogs if you bring the beer!
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Posts: 1,136Member
    I've seen a dryer fire happen, and it ain't pretty! Never ever ever, would I ever put any plastic hose on a dryer either. All hard metal pipe for me after seeing that!
    Master electrician specialising in boiler and burner controls, multiple fuel systems, radiant system controls, building controls, and universal refrigeration tech.
  • ratioratio Posts: 1,626Member
    Unless the camera has good IR filtering, it'll overexpose very hot surfaces. I expect that it wasn't quite so ...visible... to the naked eye.

    That said, with the oxidation that's showing on the very hottest parts, I'd've pulled the fire alarm & called the fire dept as soon as I saw it.

  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 4,381Member
    Dryback boiler with refractory damage
  • RayWohlfarthRayWohlfarth Posts: 507Member
    wow thats scary
    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
    Click here to take Ray's class.
    Click here to buy Ray's books.
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Posts: 1,136Member
    @EBEBRATT-Ed I wondered that as well. If that were the case, it wouldn't present an explosion hazard.
    Master electrician specialising in boiler and burner controls, multiple fuel systems, radiant system controls, building controls, and universal refrigeration tech.
  • ZmanZman Posts: 4,364Member
    @hot rod
    You can't just post a pic like that and walk away.
    Did you see this boiler or was it a picture from the internet?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hot rod_7hot rod_7 Posts: 8,845Member
    I got the pic 3rd hand from a wholesaler that knew the service tech on the call. The building was evacuated, seems the fire marshal and boiler operator had different opinions on how to cool the boiler.

    Another tech that saw the pic recognized the boiler as one his company used to service, years back. He has a high pressure boiler operators license in the State and he indicated there is a protocol for cooling down a boiler that has run away like that.

    Must have been 3 safeties failed for that condition, LWC, operating stat and high limit?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 4,381Member
    How to cool the boiler? Just shut it off and leave it connected to the system, the load will cool it down. When it has "cooled" as much as possible isolate it.
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Posts: 1,136Member
    Is an HRT type boiler a dryback like a scotch-marine? At least all that I've seen are.

    How did they cool the boiler? I'd think simply turning off the burner could allow water to return to the boiler which could still be red hot and end up catastrophic. I'd suspect isolating the boiler and turning off burner would be the safest way. I wouldn't want to be the guy turning those valves, let alone the guy taking the picture. Wow....
    Master electrician specialising in boiler and burner controls, multiple fuel systems, radiant system controls, building controls, and universal refrigeration tech.
  • Mike_SheppardMike_Sheppard Posts: 231Member
    edited November 12
    EDIT: I was given inaccurate information.

    We had a hotel in Maryland where this happened and it was even worse. The boiler didn't blow but the tubes got so hot they started to melt and were "U" shaped. Boiler was a total loss.
    Never stop learning.
  • kevinj_4kevinj_4 Posts: 42Member

    Yes this one was a dry back. The boiler was a steam boiler and it was empty. They shut it off. The feedwater line broke and no water could enter the boiler. The safeties were probably bypasses or failed long before the feedwater line broke.

    There are dryback and wetback scotch marine boilers.

    I was told it was a maintenance guy who shut the boiler off.

    We had a hotel in Maryland where this happened and it was even worse. The boiler didn't blow but the tubes got so hot they started to melt and were "U" shaped. Boiler was a total loss.

    Mike,

    You do not have your facts straight at all on this job. The feed did not break, the pump coupler stripped.

    The controls are not full of mud. In fact the LWCO tested open.
    The backup warrick relay base is melted in the cabinet so it cannot be tested at this time.

    And last a Michigan state trooper at the site shut it down.
  • kevinj_4kevinj_4 Posts: 42Member

    It was an HRT boiler. I talked to the contractor on facebook who is dealing with it. It was a government facility and apparently the insurance and inspectors didn't care about finding out what caused it to happen. I have more pictures of the boiler opened up that I can share later.

    The contractor told me they found nothing jumped out but I'm not sure if I believe that. It had a Warrick probe style low water cut off as well as a McDonnell Miller 150. The only way I see a probe style LWCO not shutting the boiler down is jumping it out. I had a customer that had their LWCO go bad so they had an "electrical engineer" who lived in the building come fix it. He grounded the probe with a jumper. My bet is probe was bypassed and 150 was full of mud.

    hot rod said:

    I got the pic 3rd hand from a wholesaler that knew the service tech on the call. The building was evacuated, seems the fire marshal and boiler operator had different opinions on how to cool the boiler.

    Another tech that saw the pic recognized the boiler as one his company used to service, years back. He has a high pressure boiler operators license in the State and he indicated there is a protocol for cooling down a boiler that has run away like that.

    Must have been 3 safeties failed for that condition, LWC, operating stat and high limit?

    Hotrod, you must have got this from Chris.

    Low pressure steam, 2 LWCO. one manual reset.

    Pressure controls mean nothing when you dry fire.

    A lot of wrong information on here!!!!

    The state boiler inspector spent a half day with me, the insurance inspector is coming in this week for second visit.

    We have meetings coming up with the customer, priority was securing the dead boiler and bringing second boiler and heating plant back on line. Then thoroughly testing all the equipment in the plant.

    The state has their own HVAC people and we only go in when.there are issues,

    There is plenty of time to inspect this thing now.
  • kevinj_4kevinj_4 Posts: 42Member

    It was an HRT boiler. I talked to the contractor on facebook who is dealing with it. It was a government facility and apparently the insurance and inspectors didn't care about finding out what caused it to happen. I have more pictures of the boiler opened up that I can share later.

    The contractor told me they found nothing jumped out but I'm not sure if I believe that. It had a Warrick probe style low water cut off as well as a McDonnell Miller 150. The only way I see a probe style LWCO not shutting the boiler down is jumping it out. I had a customer that had their LWCO go bad so they had an "electrical engineer" who lived in the building come fix it. He grounded the probe with a jumper. My bet is probe was bypassed and 150 was full of mud.

    Mike,

    I am the contractor and I do not do facebook so I do not know where you got this info.

    Your bets are all wrong here, CNA done an internal & the boiler was CSD-1 tested by the state HVAC group in August 2018.

    Float is clean & LWCO was open, warrick base is melted.

    Again this equipment is serviced by the state HVAC people, contractors are only brought in when needed.
  • kevinj_4kevinj_4 Posts: 42Member
    Gordy said:

    The more I look at the photo, I’m starting to think photoshopped. With the flammable items in the foreground, coupled with the fact there should be heat waves distorting objects in the background above the boiler. Also there should be some smoke from the paint burning off.

    NOT Photoshop, this is real, photo taken by the trooper that shut it down.
  • kevinj_4kevinj_4 Posts: 42Member

    How to cool the boiler? Just shut it off and leave it connected to the system, the load will cool it down. When it has "cooled" as much as possible isolate it.

    Yep, dump the e-stops and let it cool.
  • hot rod_7hot rod_7 Posts: 8,845Member
    kevinj said:

    It was an HRT boiler. I talked to the contractor on facebook who is dealing with it. It was a government facility and apparently the insurance and inspectors didn't care about finding out what caused it to happen. I have more pictures of the boiler opened up that I can share later.

    The contractor told me they found nothing jumped out but I'm not sure if I believe that. It had a Warrick probe style low water cut off as well as a McDonnell Miller 150. The only way I see a probe style LWCO not shutting the boiler down is jumping it out. I had a customer that had their LWCO go bad so they had an "electrical engineer" who lived in the building come fix it. He grounded the probe with a jumper. My bet is probe was bypassed and 150 was full of mud.

    hot rod said:

    I got the pic 3rd hand from a wholesaler that knew the service tech on the call. The building was evacuated, seems the fire marshal and boiler operator had different opinions on how to cool the boiler.

    Another tech that saw the pic recognized the boiler as one his company used to service, years back. He has a high pressure boiler operators license in the State and he indicated there is a protocol for cooling down a boiler that has run away like that.

    Must have been 3 safeties failed for that condition, LWC, operating stat and high limit?

    Hotrod, you must have got this from Chris.

    Low pressure steam, 2 LWCO. one manual reset.

    Pressure controls mean nothing when you dry fire.

    A lot of wrong information on here!!!!

    The state boiler inspector spent a half day with me, the insurance inspector is coming in this week for second visit.

    We have meetings coming up with the customer, priority was securing the dead boiler and bringing second boiler and heating plant back on line. Then thoroughly testing all the equipment in the plant.

    The state has their own HVAC people and we only go in when.there are issues,

    There is plenty of time to inspect this thing now.
    I did get it from Chris, saw him at a training I was doing at Local hall last week.

    I did not get many details, don't want to speculate on the cause, just wanted to share how serious a runaway boiler can be, and look :)

    Hope you get it all worked out, glad it wasn't a more serious event.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • kevinj_4kevinj_4 Posts: 42Member
    hot rod said:

    kevinj said:

    It was an HRT boiler. I talked to the contractor on facebook who is dealing with it. It was a government facility and apparently the insurance and inspectors didn't care about finding out what caused it to happen. I have more pictures of the boiler opened up that I can share later.

    The contractor told me they found nothing jumped out but I'm not sure if I believe that. It had a Warrick probe style low water cut off as well as a McDonnell Miller 150. The only way I see a probe style LWCO not shutting the boiler down is jumping it out. I had a customer that had their LWCO go bad so they had an "electrical engineer" who lived in the building come fix it. He grounded the probe with a jumper. My bet is probe was bypassed and 150 was full of mud.

    hot rod said:

    I got the pic 3rd hand from a wholesaler that knew the service tech on the call. The building was evacuated, seems the fire marshal and boiler operator had different opinions on how to cool the boiler.

    Another tech that saw the pic recognized the boiler as one his company used to service, years back. He has a high pressure boiler operators license in the State and he indicated there is a protocol for cooling down a boiler that has run away like that.

    Must have been 3 safeties failed for that condition, LWC, operating stat and high limit?

    Hotrod, you must have got this from Chris.

    Low pressure steam, 2 LWCO. one manual reset.

    Pressure controls mean nothing when you dry fire.

    A lot of wrong information on here!!!!

    The state boiler inspector spent a half day with me, the insurance inspector is coming in this week for second visit.

    We have meetings coming up with the customer, priority was securing the dead boiler and bringing second boiler and heating plant back on line. Then thoroughly testing all the equipment in the plant.

    The state has their own HVAC people and we only go in when.there are issues,

    There is plenty of time to inspect this thing now.
    I did get it from Chris, saw him at a training I was doing at Local hall last week.

    I did not get many details, don't want to speculate on the cause, just wanted to share how serious a runaway boiler can be, and look :)

    Hope you get it all worked out, glad it wasn't a more serious event.

    Well, they were very close to a serious event!!!!!!!!

    Some of that computer stuff is melted and the insulation on the back door is completely melted, another hour it may have been real bad.

    The trooper that was onsite noticed the odd smell and went looking for it.

    The boiler is junk. We hope they let us dig in a bit more.

    We had to wait for the state inspector before it could opened.

    Then disconnect it and work on bringing the plant up, now insurance can come in.

    Since the e-stops killed it the gas valves are working, as I said the 150 LWCO tested open and the bowl is clean.

    There was a valid CSD-1 from august & an internal inspection by the insurance inspector so this thing should have been in good shape.

    Nothing is real obvious and nothing is jumped out.

    Did the flame safegard fail?????? It is one item not yet tested due to the process here.
  • kevinj_4kevinj_4 Posts: 42Member
    Gordy said:

    The gas line is a scary proximity to the event. I see the paint isn’t brown yet.

    The gas pipe is brown.

    But they weld on live lines. That is the least on my worries.

    If this boiler would have got a gallon of water it would have been all over.
  • kevinj_4kevinj_4 Posts: 42Member
    Gordy said:

    I think the paint is the overlay of the photoshop attempt. Red hot like that the paint should be scorched on the sides to, and above. Most people would be looking to shut that beast down verses getting a picture :D

    Does this help with your ideas of photoshop???

    Insulation completely melted out.




  • GordyGordy Posts: 8,234Member
    edited November 12
    Take it easy. This is the Internet. I don’t believe everything posted until I see proof, especially pictures. Thanks for the proof, and I hope all goes well.
  • kevinj_4kevinj_4 Posts: 42Member
    Hey Gord,

    This really ain't take it easy territory. A lot of you are out there throwing stones and the boiler ain't even cooled off yet.

    There are procedures here which I have put above.

    This is a real life-safety event we can all learn from but until we are asked to find the cause it is up to others at this time.

    This is my 4th dry fire and I hope to retire in a few months, the other 3 were cast iron without all safety's built into this boiler.

    Fortunately these things do not happen often.

    This should not have happened since it was tested and & inspected recently & it has 2 LWCO on it.

    The other boiler checked out fine and has the same controls.

    Oh & the plant is online & running fine. Just short 1 boiler.


  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Posts: 1,136Member
    @Kevinj thank you for all the info. I'm very interested in the results of the/your investigation.

    I have wired hundreds of burner and boiler controls, would like to learn how this can happen. Welded contacts is the first thing that comes to mind.

    Very scary!
    Master electrician specialising in boiler and burner controls, multiple fuel systems, radiant system controls, building controls, and universal refrigeration tech.
  • kevinj_4kevinj_4 Posts: 42Member

    @Kevinj thank you for all the info. I'm very interested in the results of the/your investigation.



    Welded contacts is the first thing that comes to mind.



    Very scary!

    No welded contacts found at this point, the 150 ohms open (will not close tho it makes all 3 clicks up & down)

    No shorted wires found so far either.

    You can see in the Warrick (clear case)

    So about the only other thing in the circuit is the flame safegard control. Maybe burner contactor???? But gas should be stopped from safety circuit, e-stop killed it so gas valves were working.

    Lwco should stop power from all of the controls in theory.

    We have to remember this thing was around 2000° so by the time any investigation was started a lot of metal was moving around. We may never see the condition that caused it.

    Just the expansion & contraction may have broke a welded contact.
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