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Is this a normal operating condition

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Comments

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,455
    @kevinj
    Did this actually dry fire or was it just a failure of the rear refractory??

    I am thinking the #150 would be part of the problem. Seems as though it not only controls the feed pump but also shuts the burner down. Both low water cutoffs could fail and if the boiler had water in it it would still be running.

    Usually when something like this happens there turns out to be more than 1 failure
  • Mike_Sheppard
    Mike_Sheppard Member Posts: 696
    Welp sorry for the misinformation. I was fed that information from a contractor who posted the pictures of this on facebook. He said he worked for the company that was handling this. I have several other pictures of the boiler like the door posted above.
    Never stop learning.
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91
    > @EBEBRATT-Ed said:
    > @kevinj
    > Did this actually dry fire or was it just a failure of the rear refractory??
    >
    > I am thinking the #150 would be part of the problem. Seems as though it not only controls the feed pump but also shuts the burner down. Both low water cutoffs could fail and if the boiler had water in it it would still be running.
    >
    > Usually when something like this happens there turns out to be more than 1 failure

    Dry fired, as said above the pump coupler stripped so no feed water.

    Then 150 must have failed then Warrick did not stop it.

    So, steam up, air out, NO water back.
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91
    > @Mike_Sheppard said:
    > Welp sorry for the misinformation. I was fed that information from a contractor who posted the pictures of this on facebook. He said he worked for the company that was handling this. I have several other pictures of the boiler like the door posted above.

    Mike,

    It has to be one of our people, however we work for a mechanical contractor.

    I however am the contractor of record for the company.

    This is also why I do not post this stuff as goes from site to site and the story keeps changing.

    As someone said above this is the internet.

    I may have posted this in a few weeks after all parties were done with investigations but now the info needed to be corrected.

    This is a thing to learn from but will the insurance & the owner pay to find the cause?

    As has been posted above, nothing obvious at this point, normally there are very obvious signs of tampering of lack of service.
  • ScottSecor
    ScottSecor Member Posts: 851
    I was away last week and just read this post. Before reading all of the replies my initial thought was that the rear door refractory was missing or in poor condition from lack of maintenance or old age. After reading (and seeing the updated photos), I was correct that the refractory missing, never would have assumed it MELTED! We've worked on hundreds of scotch marine boilers, seen a few overheated back doors on dryback boiler, none of them were from melted refractory. All of them were from forty or fifty year old refractory that was missing or crumbling.

    Thank god someone shut it down in time. That is a scary situation for sure. Every time the boiler safety standards change (get more stringent) I complain. Then over time I realize the code changes are often better (safer) in the long run. I have a feeling on larger boilers, we will see the code require a third lwco in the near future, partially due to this job.

    Please keep us informed on the details. Thankfully I have not seen a boiler we service or have installed had both lwco fail (hope I never do).

    I just looked at the photo of the boiler opened up, I'm surprised the metal stays (to keep the insulation in place) are still intact. Is this a two pass boiler? The reason I ask is almost every scotch marine style boiler I've touched is three or four pass and this boiler looks much different.
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91


    I just looked at the photo of the boiler opened up, I'm surprised the metal stays (to keep the insulation in place) are still intact. Is this a two pass boiler? The reason I ask is almost every scotch marine style boiler I've touched is three or four pass and this boiler looks much different.

    I did not count the passes but it has a firebox in the bottom. It may be a 2 pass.



  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91
    Quick update

    The official reports should be out in a couple weeks.

    Short story is that 2 wires were crossed on a control.

    Stay tuned...
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91
    Oh...and be sure to properly complete CSD-1 as that would have found the wiring error.

    Slow drain or evaporation testing is about the only way to properly test the probe type of controls as it simulates an operating low water condition.
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91
    kevinj_4 said:

    Quick update

    The official reports should be out in a couple weeks.

    Short story is that 2 wires were crossed on a control.

    Stay tuned...

    OK,still delays.....investigations are done.

    The primary LWCO has a #5 head which is SPDT.

    Burner was landed on the common so when the secondary tripped out the alarm circuit re-started the burner bypassing the LWCO circuit.
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
    Wow, someone overlooked that! That is really scary.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91
    I am sure it was stuff like this that brought us CSD-1.

    The mistake would have been found had a proper CSD-1 been performed after it was serviced as the burner would have started when the secondary LWCO alarm circuit made.
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    kevinj_4 said:

    The mistake would have been found had a proper CSD-1 been performed after it was serviced as the burner would have started when the secondary LWCO alarm circuit made.

    An industry educator who I have great respect for once wrote that even if something was wrong from the factory, he would still fault the installer. Why? Because they didn't check it!

    Same applies here. Thanks for the update, @kevinj_4 .

    And so does one of my favorite sayings..............
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91
    That is a fact.

    A lot of folks do not realize how quick a hot boiler can steam off. Only 1/2 to 1" between primary LWCO and the secondary on a fire tube boiler.

    In this case the burner shut off and was re-started when the secondary opened and set the alarm circuit.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    They were lucky no one got hurt. Bad enough that they lost the boiler. Someone needs to lose their job and license as a result.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91
    Steamhead said:

    They were lucky no one got hurt. Bad enough that they lost the boiler. Someone needs to lose their job and license as a result.

    That is where it gets tricky........here the state has their own techs, the state has the inspectors.....where is this headed?????

    Now if it were me as a contractor.......it could get ugly.

    The state boiler inspector is supposed to cite the boiler owner (State also) so not much will happen.

    Worse is federal boilers as they are exempt from local codes. (the feds have their own people too)

    They are on par with schools & churches for poor maintenance.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    Maybe if your local newspaper or TV station got wind of this.........
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91
    Steamhead said:

    Maybe if your local newspaper or TV station got wind of this.........

    We do not want to go there!!! We educated the customer when the plant was brought back online.

    We still have upcoming meetings with the customer and the inspectors involved.

    We have real good state boiler inspectors here and I am sure they will address the issues.
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    The state is going to investigate themselves and find they did nothing wrong
  • kevinj_4
    kevinj_4 Member Posts: 91
    Leon82 said:

    The state is going to investigate themselves and find they did nothing wrong

    Well.......I did hear the inspector telling the tech what he did wrong.

    I hope they use this for teaching the rest of the crew, it could have gotten real ugly & fast.
    Solid_Fuel_Man