Bypassing the wiring on a vent damper?

tyen

So my dad and I are pretty much stuck in this previous post's circumstance except that the soldering on the circuit board of this damper seems to be so bad, that it cuts the connection in and out, shutting the boiler off until we give it a jiggle. We managed to get the boiler to run for a few hours but it shut off again on us.

The damper is a Honeywell brand with two LEDs on the board and it has four cables that connect to the Pennco steam boiler. Is it possible to rewire or jump the connections from the damper so that the boiler can run without relying on the defective damper?

Thank you in advanced for any guidance!
EDIT: Ideally, it would be nice to remove the damper and have the boiler operate without it, but I'm unsure as to whether or not it would operate with the wiring from the damper being disconnected from it.

STEVEusaPA

Damper is a necessary safety device. Bypass it an you are on the hook for liablility. What's wrong with the obvious...replace board/replace damper?

tyen

Thanks for getting back to me.

To my understanding, I thought that flue dampers were for efficiency and draft control.

The issue is that this boiler had its damper replaced just a few years ago, and from what I've heard these things break down all of the time and aren't worth the added efficiency versus the cost of replacing them.

GW

Unless i'm mistaken, it's impossible for the damper to move once it's disconnected. I would only bypass it if I get paid for the new damper, or some larger deposit on the new damper. No way I am bypassing it unless I am sure I am coming back (and we all know that once the heat is restored, the urgency factor goes away). And, if I tried to get a second appt to go back and install---and the home owner didn't return our calls, i would send letters to the gas co, the building dept, and the fire dept. I've never had to do this but I know the day is coming. We have to use our heads out there; you gonna leave someone without heat for a damper motor?

Jamie Hall

Ah... well now here's a place where I differ with @GW (rare!). Years ago there was a motorized damper on Cedric's predecessor. Not the barometric, but a damper to close the breeching when the boiler was off. It had all the reliability of a model T, and none of the repairability.

It was there for efficiency, so we were told. Probably did do some good.

It got removed.

Is there a manual hold open switch on yours? If there is, I'd run it open and have it stay there. Shouldn't have to disconnect anything.

tyen

That's the strange complication, the damper has a service mode, but the molex plug on the circuit board seems to be faulty because even though the damper remains in the open position, it cuts out every few minutes and turns off the boiler. Sometimes it'll come back on, on its own, but yesterday evening it stayed off after a few hours and only came back on when we pushed the connector.

We spoke to a friend who says that the poor soldering on the molex ports frequently wears out. He's been able to fix these type of units by soldering them but he's currently out of town. In the meantime he suggested that we use something to apply pressure to the connector, which we did with some small pieces of cardboard. It has given heat since then, even though it is shutting the boiler off and on every few minutes.

Ugh, if these things are made only for 'efficiency' and have no safety function, they're pointless. More energy and resources are likely spent on manufacturing and shipping them, considering how often they break down and need to be replaced.

mikeg2015

Yes they are for efficeincy, but the position confirm is for safety. In some Midwest basements with Radon issues, I’d argue they are also for safety as it reduces negative pressure between cycles reducing radon levels. That is the case in my home. I also added a fresh air damper that opens on boiler cycles too. But I have a 375k boiler and a large 13” square ceramic lined 35’ tall chimney. I have it pinched back 60% and it still has good draft. Fully open i can just about launch tissues up the chimney even in the summer.

GW

Yes, the feds require certain efficiency standards, and we get these stupid things that are supposed to save 1% or so. When they break, there goes your savings!

Yes Jamie, I'm not super into the necessity of the damper. In general my MO is to keep things original though (if it's a boiler feature), and keep things safe.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Run the damper to the open position. It is for efficiency savings only. Once the damper is open disconnect all wiring from the damper. It will then stay open.

Then you have to bypass the damper end switch wiring so the burner will run.

You have to know how to do this. When you are done test all safety controls, low water cut off high limit etc to make sure the boiler is left in a safe condition

PMJ

Installing a motorized damper was the first improvement I made when I moved in. 10 inch flue wide open on a maybe a 60 foot chimney - I think the biggest single efficiency improvement I have made. Core boiler temp drops with frightening speed without it dramatically increasing time to steam each and every cycle. Not having one of these is really doing this the hard way.

That said, with regard to reliability my understanding is the longevity of these is directly related to proximity to the boiler, the closer the shorter the life will be. My boiler is a good 10 feet from where the flue enters the chimney and I installed it maybe 6 feet away. That was 24 years ago. And remember, I do a lot more cycles on it than most too. Never have touched it since. Worth the price for the gain in efficiency is a no- brainer in my case.

Don't remember the brand off hand - will look at it if anyone wants to know.

JohnNY

Electronic dampers are good for keeping heat in the boiler and keeping the chimney warm. Two minor benefits. Having to replace a damper undoes any of that...financially speaking.
I never allow my service techs to jumper a damper or set it to manually open for more than an overnight situation. When we come across a damper we're taking out of service, we remove it from the flue and replace it with straight pipe. That's the way to handle that properly. Under no circumstances would I rely on the linkage/mechanism to keep the baffle from closing on a live-firing boiler in a family's home.

Dan Foley

My thoughts on vent dampers:

http://www.foleymechanical.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/phc02_2015.pdf

PMJ

Wow,

So much has been lost in the fine points of steam heat. I guess I do understand it from a contractor's point of view, the damper is just one more device with the potential for failure - and potentially aggravating intermittent failure at that. On the one hand you could say I am just really lucky with equipment. But at some point maybe there are enough years involved here to argue that it might be about how I operate the system. The temperature of all the components changes much less and I don't scrub the whole insides of the thing with new fresh air every darn cycle. Doing so was never in the original design plan.

But if you take a step back and observe that these systems were originally designed for a continuous flow of steam and are now operated intermittently; the resulting losses in performance including less even heat, noise, and increased corrosion to name a few are now just tolerated as the best that can be done. It is a shame really as intermittent operation can be so much better than that.

Between a vent damper, vacuum, and a another cycle or two per hour I have improved time to steam so significantly and the temperature differentials in the house so dramatically that I can't imagine giving them up. So significant are these improvements in the final result I would gladly pay a higher gas bill for them but on top of it all I pay less - at last look about 30% less than what I inherited. If I have learned one thing about steam it is a game of minutes and seconds to steam at the rads per cycle and with the number of cycles we all do each incremental improvement really adds up. But instead the convention seems to be to remove altogether what could be incremental improvements because each one is not a game changer winner all on its own.

In defence of all those who find my claims too good to be true, I admit I wouldn't have believed them either without experiencing them myself. I only wish more people could. I assure you no one would be disappointed. It might just breath some life into residential steam heat. It surely is in a death spiral now - at least where I am. I would put my all in costs in these past 25 years up against any kind of system.

Steamhead

Don't forget, if the damper is a Field or Effikal, you can replace just the motor assembly which includes the safety interlocks. Part number is GVD-RMA. Two screws, the wiring harness plug and you're done.

@PMJ has a good point. In most older buildings, the chimneys were designed to pull air through a bed of coal, which takes a lot more draft than an oil or gas burner needs. Under these circumstances, the damper makes a lot more difference than on newer jobs.

PMJ

Thanks @Steamhead. At my 1926 place the difference was huge. That chimney sucks air out like an exhaust fan. Cooled the boiler surprisingly fast. The temperature in the boiler room probably went up 20-30 degrees. It's like a sauna now. Right under the kitchen too so I never heard another complaint about that being too cold after I installed the damper. This was no small change. That big boiler stays hot and with the vacuum makes steam in less than a minute from fire having been off an hour.

Frankly I like knowing there is extra draft available with the burner on. Natural draft too. I sure don't wish to rely on a fan to push the stuff out. But shutting the draft off between burns is a must for me.

PMJ

My 24 year old damper is an Effikal. Original motor and many many cycles.

unclejohn

I normally just remove the damper from the pipe and complete the end switch circuit. You have to be able to read a wiring diagram because you are also gonna have a power wire that needs to be capped and you must like was said before check that no safety's have been bypassed. Personally I think the cost of the damper install is far above what the customer saves in most instances.

ch4man

well if you do jump one out one of three things will happen. if you get it right, thinks will work out, or you short things out and you'll have no heat, or it'll fire up just fine, but sadly never shut off,,, no mater what..

please have a care if you chose to tie wires together bypassing the engineered design

icy78

I can see using those dampers on some chimneys. But still, you have the draft hood. The chimney will pull air from somewhere. That would be space temperature air thru the hood then. Unless it's installed as @PMJ did. I believe it's between the hood and the chimney? I could see that having the most benefit. Until it failed and the appliance dumped out of the hood. (Well, I guess the end switch would have to stick too)
Might be another time for baro, spill switch, and leave the factory efficiency damper installed, if working.

Motorapido

PMJ said:

Thanks @Steamhead. At my 1926 place the difference was huge. That chimney sucks air out like an exhaust fan. Cooled the boiler surprisingly fast. The temperature in the boiler room probably went up 20-30 degrees. It's like a sauna now. Right under the kitchen too so I never heard another complaint about that being too cold after I installed the damper. This was no small change. That big boiler stays hot and with the vacuum makes steam in less than a minute from fire having been off an hour.

Frankly I like knowing there is extra draft available with the burner on. Natural draft too. I sure don't wish to rely on a fan to push the stuff out. But shutting the draft off between burns is a must for me.

I strongly agree, PMJ. When I bought my house, I saw that the prior owner had switched the failed Efikal damper to the manual hold-open position. When I installed a replacement damper, the temperature in the boiler room immediately increased dramatically, indicating more heat retained in the boiler and less loss up the chimney. I wish I had accurately measured time-to-steam during various external temperature conditions before replacing the damper and after, to provide scientific documentation of my anecdotal observation. I also insulated my wet returns, which reduced the heat in the main basement and the boiler room, indicating to me that heat that was lost in the condensate is now going back into the boiler, where it is better retained by the larger mass and by the insulation around the boiler jacket and further reducing the time-to-steam at each boiler starting cycle. I'm told that insulating the wet returns also prolongs their life, due to reduced acid building up in the condensate as the water cools while it travels in the wet returns. I know people say insulation can trap condensation on the outside of the wet return pipes, but my basement maintains about a 35% relative humidity during heating season and about 50% during the summer, so I'm not concerned about trapping condensation around the wet return external surface.

Steamhead

icy78 said:

I can see using those dampers on some chimneys. But still, you have the draft hood. The chimney will pull air from somewhere. That would be space temperature air thru the hood then. Unless it's installed as @PMJ did. I believe it's between the hood and the chimney?

That's where they are supposed to go- between the draft hood and the chimney. We see them installed between the boiler and the draft hood rather often- c'mon, how long does it take to read the instructions?

ratio

Steamhead said:

...c'mon, how long does it take to read the instructions?

You're asking that, on this site?

I think we already know that answer to that one!

icy78

> @Steamhead said:
> I can see using those dampers on some chimneys. But still, you have the draft hood. The chimney will pull air from somewhere. That would be space temperature air thru the hood then. Unless it's installed as @PMJ did. I believe it's between the hood and the chimney?
>
> That's where they are supposed to go- between the draft hood and the chimney. We see them installed between the boiler and the draft hood rather often- c'mon, how long does it take to read the instructions?
that's fair enough. I don't do installation so I don't have to always read all the instructions. Maybe I should but out of the few dozen I've seen. 100% are at the breach before the draft hood. Factory installed or at least by Factory Instructions. Judging by the length of the wire supplied and the factory connector. Trying to remember the brands , I think mostly on AO Smith water heaters and various boilers.

Steamhead

Here are the instructions for the Field dampers- check out page 6:

http://www.fieldcontrols.com/filebin/pdfs/Instruction_Manuals/46352700_GVD-4-12_Inst_Sheet_Rev_H_10-15.pdf

icy78

Thanks. I didn't even know there were after market kits.
FWIW I'm a sucker for reading instructions. Drives the installers nuts. The more I learn on here, the better they'll have to do their job. And myself as well.

Bob Harper

I find people use instructions for lighting fires in the fireplace.