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NEAR BOILER PIPING CHANGED...SYSTEM IS NOT THE SAME

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Comments

  • the_donutthe_donut Member Posts: 374
    edited February 2018
    The important things are the venting and insulation. Do that and see where you are at.
  • info43info43 Member Posts: 51
    I did something like this on a 4th floor radiator.
    Doug83Double Dethicalpaul
  • Gary SmithGary Smith Member Posts: 323
    @Doug83: you have a lot going on there: new boiler, several changes in boiler piping, overpressur breaking vents, new vents, new heat timer varivents, Ecobee controls with EPU timer; and obvious problem issues like no main vents and little main insulation. So I think you are going to have to start with basic things and change or verify one at a time to get this right. A good steam pro can probably help, there are several/many in NYC and environs.

    Some earlier questions you haven't answered that could affect advice given, if our assumptions are not correct:
    1. How many and what size radiators (EDU rating) are in the building?
    2. Were radiators recently replaced or removed say at some point before or near the same time as the boiler was replaced?
    3. Was the building heating balanced before the boiler was replaced?
    4. How does the boiler rating in EDU compare to the actual radiation present in the building?
    5. Where is the thermostat and how many additional sensors are in this building? Is there an outside air temperature sensor. Are these fancy controls properly set up for a one pipe steam system.
    6. Conform it really is a one pipe steam system (only one pipe goes to each radiator on the supply end, not one pipe on each end).

    A couple of things that I can think of that might make your system pressure unusually high are:
    a. controls not set up or working properly (Ecobee, EPU timer) causing the boiler to run too long.
    b. Pigtail(s) to pressuretrol clogged or inlet to pressuretrol clogged (the hole on the bottom of the pressuretrol where it attaches to the pigtail). These items are easily and quickly checked even by a knowledgeble homeowner but if you are uncomfortable get a steam pro to do check this.

    The other items that have been mentioned before will almost assuredly need to be done, if it were my building in this order:
    1. replace heat timer varivents with adjustable radiator vents (Hoffman #1A or Ventrite #1).
    2. add main vents to the following areas:
    i. in the basement at the end of the steam main feeding the bathrooms/kitchens.
    ii. at the top (5 th floor) of all risers. If the radiators can be moved a little the option shown in the pictures by @info43 will work well, if radiators cannot move, install vents on the risers at the ceiling of the 4th floor on all risers but bathroom riser. Install vent at top of 5th floor on bathroom riser since you said there are not radiators in the bathrooms and the risers act as radiators (common in NYC).

    See how the system operates after the pigtails/ pressuretrols are checked and radiator vents replaced and risers and main vented.

    If you still have problems next insulate the mains and risers (except the bathrooms riser which apparantly needs to be uninsulated to heat the bathrooms.

    If you still have problems, report back with symptoms at that time for further advice.
    Doug83
  • Gary SmithGary Smith Member Posts: 323
    and one further question: do you have the controls set for any night time setback?
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 12,947
    To go back for a moment to insulating the risers. Yes, they do act like radiators and condense a lot of steam. This, however, is not what you want -- you want the steam in the radiators which the risers serve! Insulate them. If the space which they run through is then too cool, allow the radiator serving that space to run a little harder (not much!).
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • Doug83Doug83 Member Posts: 35
    @Fred , Interesting point on down firing, I heard one tech mention he thought the boiler was too large and mentioned down firing early on when he was on start up. The becket rep also said it could be done by changing the gun position or something like that... Not sure the specifying/filing engineer/designer did a thorough EDR analysis. Many prior proposals thought the existing was oversized, but this group sized the same input and output. IN any case, after I wrote the last post I thought it obvious that venting was the next step in any case, as you say. That is what I am going to do first here, as well as insulating more. I got ahead of myself....thanks again!
  • Doug83Doug83 Member Posts: 35
    @Gary Smith , Gary- just saw your question. The heat timer goes down to nighttime call for heat setting of 46 degrees ( market rate tenants..) . The ECOBEE however, which is measuring the temperature in the top floor living room is also in the control, but ever since I got complaints from the 5th floor tenant in relation to her bedroom, I now run the system at 72 degree set point all day long, so the only change is that the heat timer goes from 56 degree call for heat in day, to 46 degrees at night..
  • Doug83Doug83 Member Posts: 35
    @info43 , just saw your post, I love that design with the big mouth and can use that on the 5th floor which is just the elbow into the radiator. I hate taking anything apart in the middle of winter, so I will look for someone to help with that install. This "should be easy" .....unless something breaks.
    info43
  • Doug83Doug83 Member Posts: 35
    Just wanted to close out this thread, after balancing the system by installing a big mouth on the top floor, hardest to heat room’s radiator ( we used a design shown above where we removed the radiator and installed a tee with a small riser and big mouth on top, then the horizontal run goes to the raidiator valve / radiator) we were now able to have all top floor radiators run at even temperature and timing. I also lowered the pressuretrol as recommended to 1.5 psi from 2... many thanks to all the invaluable experience on this site!
    MilanDSeanBeans
  • the_donutthe_donut Member Posts: 374
    Good riser venting is a game changer. Thanks for letting us know how it worked out.
    MilanD
  • dlipterdlipter Member Posts: 59
    Gary,

    What is the model # of your service saddle?

    Thanks
  • nicholas bonham-carternicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,137
    I think the bonnet of the valve could be removed along with the valve stem, and the hole enlarged and tapped to accomodate a bigger vent.
    Many radiators have no room to move sideways for the extra piping and tee.—NBC
  • Gary SmithGary Smith Member Posts: 323
    I believe the Romac number was 101,
  • JohnNYJohnNY Member Posts: 2,447
    edited January 2019
    Doug83 said:

    You can't buy this type of help and advice, obviously!

    Yes, you can. See below.

    For troubleshooting and private consulting services, find John "JohnNY" Cataneo here at :
    "72°F Mechanical, LLC"
    Or email John at [email protected]
    John is the Boilers and Hydronic Heating Systems Course Instructor at NYC's Mechanics Institute, a professional Master Plumber, licensed by The Department of Buildings of The City of New York, and works extensively in NYC while consulting for clients in and out of state.
    John also oversees mechanical installations and maintenance for metro-area clients with his family's company, Gateway Plumbing and Heating along with his brother/business partner.
    JBFBMechDan C.ethicalpaul
  • SteamheadSteamhead Member Posts: 13,864
    JohnNY said:

    Doug83 said:

    You can't buy this type of help and advice, obviously!

    Yes, you can. See below.

    This.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
    JohnNY
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