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Figuring heatloss on a super tight home
kcopp
Member Posts: 4,472
Running into a head scratcher on a newer home.
Customer has 2 air source heat pumps and is not a huge fan. Just does not keep him warm.
Wants a hydronic system.
Figuring on a wall hung mod con w/ panel rads.
The heatloss number do not compute. There seems to be no good way to make adjustments to the home being super tight. No diferentiation if the air infiltration is 10 changes per hour or 1 air change per hour.
House has a HERS rating of 52 and had a blower door test less than 1 change per hour.
R51 in ceiling,26 in walls. ICF foundation and slab
Is there a program that allows for this?
Customer has 2 air source heat pumps and is not a huge fan. Just does not keep him warm.
Wants a hydronic system.
Figuring on a wall hung mod con w/ panel rads.
The heatloss number do not compute. There seems to be no good way to make adjustments to the home being super tight. No diferentiation if the air infiltration is 10 changes per hour or 1 air change per hour.
House has a HERS rating of 52 and had a blower door test less than 1 change per hour.
R51 in ceiling,26 in walls. ICF foundation and slab
Is there a program that allows for this?
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Comments
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Siggy's software let's you set the ACH to whatever you want.
You can download a trial version for free.
https://www.hydronicpros.com/downloads/"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
Albert Einstein0 -
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Small HW Coil on each supply duct?
What do they have for bringing in outside air?0 -
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Is a heat exchanger being used to bring in fresh air and exhaust stale air? I certainly hope so... but if so, you are going to need data on the efficiency of that unit. Just to add to the confusion...Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
He just wants to use a new system to heat the home.
The Ductless mini split will still be there.
The Air Exchange will still be there.
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Was this > 1 ach the ACH nat or ACH50 ?kcopp said:Running into a head scratcher on a newer home.
Customer has 2 air source heat pumps and is not a huge fan. Just does not keep him warm.
Wants a hydronic system.
Figuring on a wall hung mod con w/ panel rads.
The heatloss number do not compute. There seems to be no good way to make adjustments to the home being super tight. No diferentiation if the air infiltration is 10 changes per hour or 1 air change per hour.
House has a HERS rating of 52 and had a blower door test less than 1 change per hour.
R51 in ceiling,26 in walls. ICF foundation and slab
Is there a program that allows for this?You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
732-751-1560
Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
Rich McGrath 732-581-38330 -
50 pascals
Nat 0.03
Ach @ 50... 0.08
CFM @ 50... 465
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The key to it is going to be that air exchange -- which I hope he keeps running. The apparent heat loss you can figure -- use the lowest air change that Siggy's program will allow, and go with that. Then... figure the heat needed to warm the incoming air from the air exchanger up to the desired temperature in the building (worst case for that arithmetic is to find the volume and the delta T needed, and the heat capacity of air, and do some multiplying). Add that to the heat loss from Siggy's program.
I'd consider putting some of that required heat into coils in the intake duct from the exchanger, to eliminate cold draughts, and then the rest of it into the panel rads...Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England2 -
I live in a home with similar construction. I've found heat loss to be much more of a flat line than the steep lines we are used to. Think of doubling a small number, it's still a very small number even though it's 200%.
I burn pretty much the same amount of wood when it's 20 degrees outside as when it's 0 outside. R32 walls a d R60 ceilings. 1ACH were my calculation. 14btu/ft2 at -40F.
As @Jamie Hall said, the air exchanger may be the largest heat loss from the home.
What @Larry Weingarten said, only is use 100% electric heat for a month to calculate real world heatloss, mini splits can vary their output so much based on outdoor temp and outdoor humidity necessitating many defrost cycles. Hard to put a real world number on what their actual output is for a given period of time. Electric heat is easy, 100% efficiency all day long. Add some Kill-A-Watt meters and a portable heater for each area and you have some real numbers.Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!1 -
Thanks guys.
You would think it would be straightforward.
A lot of guys talk about " fluff " in the manual J calculations.
Getting high numbers in this place that is supposed to be energy star rated.
I tried the Hydronic Pros version and had a hard time figuring it out in the 15 min window they give you.
Ill keep plugging away.
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Roll your own using a spreadsheet. A/R * delta T, or U * A* DT. A = area, R = R value, DT = differential in temperature, U = U value (inverse of R value). You have to use all common denominators, and windows are the only thing I've seen that come with a U value instead of an R value. U is the inverse of R, and vice versa.
Figure can't lie. If you really want to fine tune it, then calculate the R value of all wooden framing components, and calculate them separately from the stud bay cavities.Wood has an R value of roughly 1 per inch, so a 2 X 6 stud wold have an R value of 5.5 . You have to calculate the total square footage the studs displace, and don't forget to deduct that amount from the wall as a whole.
Infiltration is calculated as volume * .018 * DT * Air Changes per Hour (ACH). You know what that number is, so no guessing needed there.
METhere was an error rendering this rich post.
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In super insulated tight homes heat load can depend on how often door is opened? So you have to oversize. Sounds like it's a matter of customer's comfort. Does she need the energy savings from heat pump if house is Canada 2000 standard? I'd look at ceiling hight electric radiant heaters because then there is individual room control and people feel warmer. Except maybe when they sit at table or desk.0
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