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Is piping ok and are my assumptions right?

adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
New Yorker boiler and I was curious if the close piping is correct and adequate? Pic 1 & 2

Also saw this tapping on the back of the boiler and wondered if that was for the skimport or is the one on the front of the unit where the pigtail and low psi gauge/pressuretrol set up a better choice due to access? Pics 3 & 4

Last but not least what are the different spigots attached to the hartford loop piping used for? I assume that the one lowest would be the "mud leg"? Pic 5













AD1971

Comments

  • IronmanIronman Posts: 4,577Member
    edited January 27
    No it's not right. The steam main should be connected BEFORE the equalizer, not after.



    Also notice: the risers should connect to the side or top (drop header) of the header, not the bottom.
    Bob Boan


    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
    @Ironman alright what are the repercussions of current configuration?
    AD1971
  • IronmanIronman Posts: 4,577Member
    Are you noticing any particular problems? Wet steam, water hammer, etc.?
    Bob Boan


    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
    To be honest I have cleared up most of the noise that it did make by insulation and pitching the rads correctly. There is some residual creaking with expansion when the system first heats but I have yet to put the milk jug remedy into play. Other than that there is just one supply valve that I have that rattles due to worn internal parts. I am mainly just looking to better the system as it has become almost an obsession.
    AD1971
  • MilanDMilanD Posts: 1,107Member
    If it were me, I'd leave it alone then. Boiler is not banging, and many turns on the riser to the main will in fact dry out the steam and as long as your header is not making any noise and the system seems to work fine on low pressure, I'd leave it alone. Noises you mentioned on the rads have nothing to do with near Boiler piping.
  • adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
    @MilanD I figured as much but just wanted to make sure. Thank you for the input!
    AD1971
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 4,499Member
    This a case of being piped wrong, but it will probably work the way it is. I wouldn't change it if your not having any issues. It looks like the skim tapping is the plug on the left side. At least he used 2 risers.

    Another installer who can't read or refused to read the manual
  • adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
    @EBEBRATT-Ed I so wish I was the owner when it was installed and after all the info I have learned from this site! Maybe if I get bored this spring I'll have mods made and see how it changes the operation.
    AD1971
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 4,499Member
    We see a lot of piping that isn't "text book" but it works. Look at it this way. No one makes a drawing of how to pipe it wrong. The drawing shows how to pipe it right because it has been determined that if you pipe it right it will work.....every time.

    If it's piped wrong it's wrong because it doesn't match the drawing that shows how to do it right.

    That doesn't mean it won't work.

    If the boiler makes steam, the water level in the sight glass is stable (minimum bouncing), no water hammer, heats the building, vents are working and no excessive pressure than leave it alone you passed the acid test
  • adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
    @EBEBRATT-Ed agreed 100%!
    AD1971
  • FredFred Posts: 6,960Member
    edited January 27
    Even if it works, I would be concerned that there are no swing joints from the riser into the header. That, by itself will put stress on the cast iron boiler section and likely cause premature failure as a result of expansion and contraction. Contrary to what others have said, I'd want that corrected and, if you do that, you might as well make the rest of it right, at the same time. And, BTW, that rear port is too low to be a skim port. The one with the Pressuretrol on it is the one to use.
  • adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
    @Fred thank you again for your input. This spring/summer I'll figure out a plan of attack. Thinking a dropped header and a legit skimport valce setup and then add in an aquastat. Plus some other items I've come across such as the BM main vent and take it from there.
    AD1971
  • FredFred Posts: 6,960Member
    @adasilva , Is there a hot water loop on that boiler somewhere? If not, you can't use an aquastat. Do you mean a Vaporstat?
  • adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
    @Fred yes a vaporstat is what I mean. Ty for catching that!
    AD1971
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 4,499Member
    And the flue pipe isn't the best. Jamming an elbow on the boiler and coming off like that is bad for the venting. Looks like you have another opening in the chimney higher up. I would change the flue as well
  • MilanDMilanD Posts: 1,107Member
    Fred has a good point which I overlooked - swing joints. How old is the boiler? If the boiler is fairly new, repipe. If you feel you can repipe it your self, even better. Do it. You'll have fun doing it too. If the boiler is 15ish or so, and it hasn't leaked yet, leave it alone. Just start saving for a new one and with luck, this guy may go for a long time still. Do make sure water quality and pH is proper. Then keep an eye on water loss and don't let it use excess amount of make-up water. If you don't have it, install a water meter on your boiler make-up water line.
  • adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
    @EBEBRATT-Ed That does make sense and I will look into new piping for the flue as well.

    @MilanD the boiler was installed in 06 seems it was not maintained as thoroughly as it could have been as the person who owned it said that he only had it serviced bi annually. The water level does drop out of the site glass when it runs and returns to normal after the full cycle. That was what originally caught my attention and brought me to this site! With that said I have insulated and added new vents to the rads and the main (although I went the cheaper route to no avail and will get a proper unit installed when they are available again) Also I did the brass pigtail and low pressure gauge configuration etc. As for water loss it is minimal and due to a valve on a rad in my living room. Seems that it has been a issue from before I owned it as there is a union on the branch piping and tell tale signs of prior leaking. Not an issue as I see it and will be rectified when the warmer months come. As for piping it myself, I have access to a pipe threader and cutter as I do industrial electrical work and yes it would be quite fulfilling to do it myself.

    I have already thought out how I would pipe a dropped header configuration and move the equalizer pipe to be after the main as pointed out by @Ironman earlier. Now with the flue piping not being optimum I'll look into that as well.

    So many things to do and so little time.......................
    AD1971
  • MilanDMilanD Posts: 1,107Member
    As.often in life, some "good enough" may just do it here too.
  • mikeg2015mikeg2015 Posts: 444Member
    Wouldn't be hard to make it a drop header then connect the supply and equalizer in the correct order.
  • New England SteamWorksNew England SteamWorks Posts: 1,148Member
    I'd call him back. He clearly did not follow the install manual. That's not what you paid for.


    New England SteamWorks
    Service, Installation, & Restoration of Steam Heating Systems
    newenglandsteamworks.com
  • IronmanIronman Posts: 4,577Member

    I'd call him back. He clearly did not follow the install manual. That's not what you paid for.

    The date written on the front with a sharpie indicates that it was installed 12 years ago. I don't think he's coming back after that long.

    I would also recommend leaving it alone if it's been in that long with no issues. If you're gonna re-pipe all of the near boiler steam, you migh as well get a new boiler considering the cost of re-piping.

    Bob Boan


    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
    Fred said:

    Even if it works, I would be concerned that there are no swing joints from the riser into the header. That, by itself will put stress on the cast iron boiler section and likely cause premature failure as a result of expansion and contraction. Contrary to what others have said, I'd want that corrected and, if you do that, you might as well make the rest of it right, at the same time. And, BTW, that rear port is too low to be a skim port. The one with the Pressuretrol on it is the one to use.

    @Fred if I am to do the skim port where the Ptrol and gauge is do I just add 3/4 nipple and then a T for the Ptrol & then the valve & T for viewing the water as it is skimmed? I do have water surge and noticed some of the rad vents closest to the boiler tend to let out droplets of water. Of is that due to the cheap maid o mist vents?
    AD1971
  • FredFred Posts: 6,960Member
    @adasilva Yes,
    If you can get that bushing out, you can install a 3/4" short nipple and then a 3/4" Tee with the center opening of the Tee turned to one side or the other where you can put your bushing back in and then re-install the Pressuretrol and gauge on that side opening. Use the end opening as your skim port and when done skimming, put a 3/4" plug in it so that it is ready for the next time you need it. Remember, because it is only a 3/4" opening, you have to skim very slowly.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 9,189Member
    If it's been there 12 years and it's not leaking, I'd be more worried about damaging it trying to pull the piping out of the boiler.

    The steel piping likely expands at almost the same rate as the block, unlike copper which expands far more.

    Leave it alone.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Posts: 185Member
    If I may add a criticism just for fun, the hartford loop nipple seems too long. Probably barely noticeable difference operationally?
  • BobCBobC Posts: 4,861Member
    Hartford nipples are a strange thing, mine is 5" long and works flawlessly and I've seen them a foot long that are quiet as a church mouse. Yet others have problems with 3" "close" nipples.

    If it's doing it's job and not making noise let it be.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
    edited December 9
    @Fred So with a little effort the plug came out and I installed the set up you recommended (see pic). I am aware there isn't tape on the threads for the cap, that will come after I skim.

    Now the question is, do I skim with chemicals or no? I am also installing a new length of 1.25 pipe today due to a leak that I had put off last winter and to be honest forgot about between work, and well more work. I plan on letting the system run this week to flush out any oils from the new piping so that when I do skim it will get a good amount of it.

    Does this plan make sense? Is there a better way to go about the oil removal in the piping I.E wash it out first?
    AD1971
  • adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
    @ethicalpaul & @BobC I'm not certain that it affects operation at all? No knocking at the boiler at all. My main issue is run time at about 20 min to heat 1300 sq. feet. With 2 big mouths
    vents installed it seems to run less now. We will see the bill for proof.
    AD1971
  • FredFred Posts: 6,960Member
    @adasilva , No chemicals. Letting it run for a few days, to get the oils off of your new pipe and back to the boiler is the right thing to do. If/when you see the water in the sight glass start bouncing more than normal, you know some oil is in the boiler. You may have to skim a couple times to get it all but it will work.
  • adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
    @Fred since I've replaced the pipe that had leaks the gurgling radiators have subsided. The shut off valve still has a small leak but nothing of what it was. I tried using steel wool to clean the mating parts but I believe that the guy I got the house from changed just the valve and not the spud. I have a replacement but couldn't get the spud out and didn't want to get into cutting the old one out today as I had other obligations. I cleaned the pigtail and then pressure is at 1/2 lb or 8 oz. With the added big mouth vent and what I have done I believe that skimming is the last part of the puzzle!! Cannot express how thankful I am for this site! 👍
    AD1971
  • FredFred Posts: 6,960Member
    It sounds like you are well on your way to having these problems resolved. Unfortunate about the spud in that radiator. They can be tough to get out and may well have to be cut out. The previous owner didn't leave the old valve laying around, in the basement did he? It is usually a lot easier to repack the old valve than to replace the valve and spud.
  • adasilvaadasilva Posts: 64Member
    Nothing if the sorts, just paint and brushes etc. Honestly I'm not afraid of the job just didn't have the time to get into it today. I'll leave it be for now and when I have time I'll tackle it as the radiator is pretty easily accessible to work on. With the new pipeing it should free back up with no issues.
    AD1971
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