Advice Needed from Steam Experts

Ironman

I posted about this house last year when I first looked at it:
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/160469/whats-this-doing#latest

The owner wanted to wait a couple of years to replace the boiler.

A couple of days ago, she called me back wanting me to come look at it again to see what could be done. Recently, a reputable builder who I know had come in and is in the process of doing a lot foundation restoration that was unexpectedly needed. The house is a 7k sq. ft. mansion which dates back to the 1850's and is on the historical registry. In the process of this, the builder cut loose the boiler and all of the return piping on the lowest floor to do his repairs. He had convinced the owner to get forced air and get rid of the Dunham Home system. He has also removed the lower floor wall radiators. There are two floors above this which are the main living area and then the bedrooms above that. The lower floor dry returns were in individual enclosed crawl spaces which are now temporarily open during the foundation repairs.

After the owner did some thinking, she realized that she wanted to keep her radiators and not have forced air. That's when she called me. I naturally agreed that was the smart thing to do. The upper floors are in immaculate condition and she doesn't want any construction/remodeling done up there.

So here's the issue: she's almost dead set on wanting the system converted to hot water. I know the issues evolved and ordinarily I'm not in favor of doing this. But considering that a lot of the steam system has already been removed, I'm open to exploring the possibility.

What I'm considering is after doing a load calc and radiation survey, is to pressurized the steam main, risers and rad's. If that holds, all of the returns would be re-piped and TRV's added to each rad with constant circ and two mod/cons/.

Any advice or recommendations is appreciated.

Sorry for the long post.

Jamie Hall

Sounds like a plan, @Ironman (Bob) -- I hope it holds pressure for you!

lchmb

add a lot of protection in to the system to catch rust..my only concern would be a leak showing up down the road when all the junk breaks lose... may want to put something in the contract to protect yourself...

Danny Scully

I wouldn’t do it, but I’m a purist @Ironman Come on though, I know you’re capable of the challenge. Don’t make the dead men frown down upon you!

gerry gill

Seems to me it would be smarter to just put back the steam. Historic house and all.. just my 2 cents

Tinman

Hey Bob - When my customers are insistent, I'll do the conversion. The last one I did was about a year and a half ago. It was for a 150 year old church and only one radiator failed the pressure test. Just like your plan, I did the load calc and radiation survey prior to agreeing to move forward. I cascaded a couple of KHN's and their gas usage has gone way done. Here are some pics.

Ironman

Stephen,
It's great to hear from you!

Thanks for your insight and experience.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Nothing to add except dirt, sludge etc which you already know about. Sounds like a nice project!!

New England SteamWorks

Why did she go from forced air was the way to go, to now hot water is the way to go? Sounds like she has been talking to a whole lot of contractors who know nothing about steam.

Circulators, expansion tank, relays, zone valves, air scoops, check valves.....

Why?

K.I.S.S.

Steamhead

New England SteamWorks said:

Why did she go from forced air was the way to go, to now hot water is the way to go? Sounds like she has been talking to a whole lot of contractors who know nothing about steam.

Circulators, expansion tank, relays, zone valves, air scoops, check valves.....

Why?

K.I.S.S.

This.

What happened to the wall radiators from the first floor? Did the idiot builder scrap them?

Ironman

No, she's not been talking to a lot contractors as far as I know. I think it's just that she let the building contractor sway her against her will, then finally put her foot down that she wanted to keep her rad's. That's when she called me, but a lot of damage had been done.

Yes, she still has the rads that were removed.

The mains branch in three directions around the high ceilings of the bottom floor and are accessible from there. So are the dry returns from the two main floors. The returns for the bottom floor were in the individual crawl spaces and have all been removed along with all the near boiler returns so that the builder could re-do all the foundation walls. Every wall in the house is 12 -16" of brick down to the ground, so what's been removed is extensive. Hot water would allow me to run new returns in copper in the ceiling instead of black iron in the crawl spaces.

There's about 1540 sq. ft. of EDR total. That's enough to give 33 btus per sq. ft. I haven't done a load calc yet, but I've never seen a house need more than that in 37 years of doing them.

She also wants the old boiler room for wine cellar, so I would have to have a convincing practical or technical reason to keep the steam.

Steamhead

Copper should be OK for those dry returns, if it makes the crawlspace work easier. They won't see that much steam, if any. We've run into a few and they don't seem to have the issues that copper steam piping does.

Tinman

Sounds like a good opportunity, at this point, for a home run manifold system.

Ironman

Stephen Minnich said:

Sounds like a good opportunity, at this point, for a home run manifold system.

Like this one we just did?
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/163504/gravity-system-boiler-replacement#latest

It would be a lot more work than just re-doing the returns.

Dave0176

Stephen Minnich said:

Sounds like a good opportunity, at this point, for a home run manifold system.

Ironman said:

Stephen Minnich said:

Sounds like a good opportunity, at this point, for a home run manifold system.

Like this one we just did?
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/163504/gravity-system-boiler-replacement#latest

It would be a lot more work than just re-doing the returns.

Ok now my skin is beginning to crawl up and I’m twitching. Lmao Seriously though unless you have a customer that is completely dead set on hot water I can’t bring myself to rip a steam system out.
You hot water guys.

Ironman

Dave0176 said:

Stephen Minnich said:

Sounds like a good opportunity, at this point, for a home run manifold system.

Ironman said:

Stephen Minnich said:

Sounds like a good opportunity, at this point, for a home run manifold system.

Like this one we just did?
https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/163504/gravity-system-boiler-replacement#latest

It would be a lot more work than just re-doing the returns.

Ok now my skin is beginning to crawl up and I’m twitching. Lmao Seriously though unless you have a customer that is completely dead set on hot water I can’t bring myself to rip a steam system out.
You hot water guys.

Dave,
There's a lot more to this than I can describe or explain on here. I don't think that I've ever done this that I can recall. If I do it that way, it will be the exception to the rule for me. The pressure test will probably be what tips the decision either way.

mikeg2015

Why not do both. Keep the steam upstairs but zone the downstairs using hot water. Each cycles independently. Use TRV and size for 190f.

Could use use steam boiler sized for upstairs steam only and a separate mod con downstairs on hot water with a mod or old and possibly modern radiators. Then and zone upstairs using heat pumps on forced air ac and steam as backup.

Best is to return the steam. But if they’ve done major renovations and ruined all the plaster, layout etc... doesn’t matter as much.

Bonus is zoning and 2 separate heating plants for partial redundancy.

Danny Scully

It’s obvious @ironman has made his mind up already. Just make your silly homemade low loss header already and keep the innards a secret from us forever

Ironman

Danny Scully said:

It’s obvious @ironman has made his mind up already. Just make your silly homemade low loss header already and keep the innards a secret from us forever

Actually, I'm on the fence until the pressure test, but I hadn't really thought about this being another opportunity for the Iroman Header until you mentioned it. That may sway the decision right there.

Dave0176

Ironman said:

Danny Scully said:

It’s obvious @ironman has made his mind up already. Just make your silly homemade low loss header already and keep the innards a secret from us forever

Actually, I'm on the fence until the pressure test, but I hadn't really thought about this being another opportunity for the Iroman Header until you mentioned it. That may sway the decision right there.

I have a great idea, you pretend to do the pressure test and tell her it won’t handle water pressure without leaks, she’s gonna believe you, then you get to rebuild an awesome two pipe vapor steam system, it’ll work I’m tellin ya...............

Ironman

Danny Scully said:

It’s obvious @ironman has made his mind up already. Just make your silly homemade low loss header already and keep the innards a secret from us forever

They really work great!

Would you like to market them for me in your area?

Danny Scully

Thanks for the offer @Ironman, but I analyze labor costs too much. I couldn’t possibly bring myself to spend time making something I could easily buy

Ironman

Ah man, think of the possibities. You could even brand it the Scully Separator and put your own logo on it.