HTP UFT Tankless boiler

NY_Rob

^ nice!

doctorman

Gordy said:

^ question becomes how much of a duration of no power before it will lose the system memory settings.. Over the summer may be enough to have to relearn the next heating season.

Probably why GF tech support recommends constant power for auto adapt.

no, techsupport said it is better to leave it plugged in all year to avoid scale build up on the motor,
it turns on everyday for 2 min to avoid that.

doctorman

@NY_Rob
1) so for the descaling flush, can I use my current outlet out of the bottom of caleffi and just install a flush valve on the inlet ontop?

so the descaling will be done by inlet on top and out of the bottom outlet to the caleffi and out?

with the zones outlet closed, I should be fine,

also since this is not a combi I dont expect it to need the descaling every 2 years probably I can go longer , the same water with inhibitor will be running in this system, I feel comfortable 3 to 5 years without flushing it.

we dont have a very hard water here in New york.


2) the one way valve before the fill valve... how necessary is it?
I am getting a bit of resistance on it
the fill valve has 30 psi on one side and 15 to 20 psi on the other, so the water should not go through it back to the street water.

also I have the pressure relief valve on the boiler in case the pressure goes up.
The expansion tank in the vicinity of the fill valve.
the fill valve is on the suction side of the pump so even if the exp tank fails there will be negative pressure there not positive to push the water back to the street...

so I understand why the plumber would say it is not really necessary.

Gordy

doctorman said:

Gordy said:

^ question becomes how much of a duration of no power before it will lose the system memory settings.. Over the summer may be enough to have to relearn the next heating season.

Probably why GF tech support recommends constant power for auto adapt.

no, techsupport said it is better to leave it plugged in all year to avoid scale build up on the motor,
it turns on everyday for 2 min to avoid that.

I don’t buy that, plenty of hydronic systems that sit idle for the non heating season.

Scale is the result of constant makeup water added to the system. Once a hydronic system is filled,purged, and air removed it is a closed environment.

NY_Rob

doctorman said:

@NY_Rob
1) so for the descaling flush, can I use my current outlet out of the bottom of caleffi and just install a flush valve on the inlet ontop? so the descaling will be done by inlet on top and out of the bottom outlet to the caleffi and out?

It's not just a regular "flush out" like purging air from the lines.. it's a multi hour circulation of chemicals through the HX.
I wouldn't run that through the Dirtmag.
It's easy enough to just add two valves with hose bibs to the top two ports and be done with it.

doctorman

NY_Rob said:

doctorman said:

@NY_Rob
1) so for the descaling flush, can I use my current outlet out of the bottom of caleffi and just install a flush valve on the inlet ontop? so the descaling will be done by inlet on top and out of the bottom outlet to the caleffi and out?

It's not just a regular "flush out" like purging air from the lines.. it's a multi hour circulation of chemicals through the HX.
I wouldn't run that through the Dirtmag.
It's easy enough to just add two valves with hose bibs to the top two ports and be done with it.

usually, 1 to 1.5 hour of descaling with vinegar does the job for tankless water heaters, this is a boiler which is much less scaling would be involved.
I was not sure if I can use the top ports for the descaling with gravity working against you, but I guess you can since it is a chemical reaction of acid with calcium carbonate and it is dissolved in the solution.

I will try to call caleffi and see if circulating the descaler through it for 2 hours every 2 -3 years hurt it..

otherwise I have to put a valve before caleffi so the descaler does not touch it at all.

I would much rather put a small water softener before the fill valve so no scaling is ever an issue any suggestion on a model/brand on this?

hot_rod

Unless the boiler takes on fresh water, which would be another problem, you should not need to descale the boiler side HX. In fact the less you drain and change boiler water the better.

I would assure the initial fill water is low hardness and low TDS, again follow the manufacturers water quality suggestions.

I like to add conditioner chemicals as the provide buffers, film providers and some ingredients to "lock up" small amounts of hard deposits, basically keeping them in suspension.

We see more and more installers eliminating fill valves altogether and installing fill tank systems.

This eliminates the fill valve and back flow preventer. More and more areas requires testable type BFP now on boilers and documanted yearly testing and re-certification.

It also alarms you of a leak in the system or relief discharge as the tank alarms when it runs low.

Leon82

That is a bad idea

Ironman

I've always taught my children that ANY job worth doing is worth doing right.

I'm glad he's a nice guy, but how about doing nice work?

Paul48

Doesn't anyone think that the 100' of baseboard zone needs to be addressed?

NY_Rob

doctorman said:

..also since this is not a combi I dont expect it to need the descaling every 2 years probably I can go longer..

Descaling has nothing to do with it being or not being a combi boiler.
The UFT-80W manual calls for descaling every year where hardness exceeds 12 grains/gallon or every 2-3 yrs for levels below 12 grains/gallon. You can check the annual water quality report all public water suppliers are required to publish for the hardness of your supply.
I personally wouldn't exceed 2yrs without a descaling procedure on my boiler.

doctorman said:

the same water with inhibitor will be running in this system, I feel comfortable 3 to 5 years without flushing it.

Best to run that by HTP, they specifically mention not using any chemicals other than glycol in their boilers.

Gordy

Scale is created, and a direct relationship to hardness, and heat.

hot_rod

It will only scale if you put in crappy water at fill that has scaling minerals So the best first step is checking and confirming your water. TDS and hardness are good to know.

IF you put high scaling water in it, de-scale every few year and fill again with the same water???

As Gordy mentioned the scale forms on the HX due to heat added, keep the minerals out and the heat will not be an issue, which is good for a boiler.

doctorman

hot rod said:

It will only scale if you put in crappy water at fill that has scaling minerals So the best first step is checking and confirming your water. TDS and hardness are good to know.

IF you put high scaling water in it, de-scale every few year and fill again with the same water???

As Gordy mentioned the scale forms on the HX due to heat added, keep the minerals out and the heat will not be an issue, which is good for a boiler.

Makes sense,
pure water and inhibitor and you should never need descaling...
where would calcium carbonate come from?

any suggestion on a small water softner to put at the fill?

and any recommendation on Inhibitor chemicals? what do you use?

hot_rod

doctorman said:

hot rod said:

It will only scale if you put in crappy water at fill that has scaling minerals So the best first step is checking and confirming your water. TDS and hardness are good to know.

IF you put high scaling water in it, de-scale every few year and fill again with the same water???

As Gordy mentioned the scale forms on the HX due to heat added, keep the minerals out and the heat will not be an issue, which is good for a boiler.

Makes sense,
pure water and inhibitor and you should never need descaling...
where would calcium carbonate come from?

any suggestion on a small water softner to put at the fill?

and any recommendation on Inhibitor chemicals? what do you use?

Since you asked
https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_18_na.pdf

My suggestion is to fill purge test for leaks, use site water for that.

Then add a hydronic cleaner let it circulate in all zones for a few days, run the boiler let it heat.

Then flush well, get all the soap out.

Then add good water. Under 7 GPG hardness, under 200PPM TDS is one manufacturers suggestion. Either buy DI water or filter it onsite. RO, DI or distilled water are all sufficiently pure.

Lastly I like to add a conditioner, I use Rhomar brand, they make a easy to use cleaner/ inhibitor kit.

Then yearly test the fluid, as long as no additional water has been added that fluid should last, and protect for many years.

Label and date the system so the next guy knows it has treated water in it. i think a label comes with Rhomar.

this adds many hours and some $$ to a system, so too many installers ignore this important step.

Warranty on the boiler is void if you do to follow their fill water procedures.

Softened water as you will learn reading the Idronics is not the same as demineralizing water.

doctorman

not much water goes in the baseboard,

http://www.rhomarwater.com/calculators/pipe-volume-calculator

at 3/4" pipe, 150 feet , that is less than 4Gallon
lets say 5 gallon in tank,

with 10 gallon of demineralized water I can fill the whole system

I can get 10 gallon of distilled water from CVs , walmart etc and pump it in the system once all is done and set even double that is just 20$ and peace of mind for many years

--update---
well I was wrong to calculate just the length of the baseboard, as there are double that size in pipes that take the water to the baseboard and then the return,
still it won't be close to 20 Gallon

hot_rod

Sure for a small amount just buy it at a Superstore.

Most water treatment companies have DI units at their location to supply that water to stores. Around here they will fill your container, any size even those truck totes.

More and more I see wholesalers offering DI water in 5 or 55 gallon drums, in areas where the water is crazy bad. They realize it is better than wrestling with failed HX that the manufacturers are no longer willing to cover.

doctorman

Vent is connected

I will cut that exhaust at 12" out and put a net on it.
installed the outside sensor also.

found a bunch of leaks in that soldering job...
This boiler is like a spaceship and the pump wow so quite

the fire in the heat exchange burns orange or real blue?

I will get my testo tomorrow so I can not adjust it till then,
it looks real orange in mine now.

Gordy

Amazing all that solder, and leaks. Plumber?

Ironman

Please tell me that you installed that relief valve.

NY_Rob

I see you found the pressure relief valve.... did he install it?

The viewing port in the HX will glow orange.

Leon82

I think the guy who sold you the venting figured he could sell you more. Regular pvc would be acceptable for the intake.

doctorman

Ironman said:

Please tell me that you installed that relief valve.

Yes the pressure relief valve was installed after the vent.

doctorman

Leon82 said:

I think the guy who sold you the venting figured he could sell you more. Regular pvc would be acceptable for the intake.

He sold it to my "plumber"
I told him 200 times over the phone that is a waste of money
Oh well...
it looks okay

doctorman

NY_Rob said:

I see you found the pressure relief valve.... did he install it?

The viewing port in the HX will glow orange.

yeah I figured...
watched that HTP video and noticed at the end still looked orange so there is only one way to adjust these... Combustion analyzer

I did follow the video, and tried half turn this way and another and noticed the flame become real Red if I turned it half way counterclockwise or 1 turn clockwise, so I split the difference and turned it to half a turn clockwise and that was the least red and more orange flame.
can not wait for my Testo to get here...
I dont have a manometer so I am planning to use the testo for that as well.

for tonight the boiler is heating the house to 68 F... and we will see how the house feels.

The Alpha2 Rocks! really cool pump, thanks for recommending it @NY_Rob . just plugged in the wall.
I will install an outlet for the pump from the boiler directly tomorrow just in case for future.

doctorman

Gordy said:

Amazing all that solder, and leaks. Plumber?

tell me about it
one of the connections was painted and it was in a very hard spot, we ended up replacing that with a new elbow and the solder took on after,

the other 2 leaks were in the vertical line close to each other so I guess when he heat up one the other one lost its solder...
anyway he fixed that .

The extra solder on the pipe is just a cosmetic issue? or should I have him clean them up.. I dont want to mess with the system if it is not leaking, to my understanding removing excess solder requires heating it and cleaning it with brush or rag, I just have no patience if that causes another leak.


so plan for tomorrow.

-Connect thermostats
1 ecobbee 4 and 2 regular thermostats
- draw boiler pump outlet
- attach thermometer to the outlet and returns
- connect the drain
- combustion analyzer

and that would be a week-long process of changing out a heavy oil boiler to top of the line sexy efficient gas boiler...

doctorman

Oh ... 1 other question came up

the gas connection .. the manual says do not use anything smaller than 3/4"

the installer put the last 2 feet at 1/2" line , just because we ran out and there was no time to run to the store
He is 100% confident that is more than enough for this boiler, I did not want to accept his argument till I see the inside gas line...

inside gas line in the boiler is like 3/8" if not smaller
so in a way I dont think it matter that the last 2 feet before the boiler is 1/2" pipe but I was wondering what is your take.

the boiler is maybe 40 feet from the meter outside, which runs in the house by 1" pipe I believe and then 3/4" pipe the last 10 feet and 1/2" last 2 feet.

flat_twin

"I did follow the video, and tried half turn this way and another and noticed the flame become real Red if I turned it half way counterclockwise or 1 turn clockwise, so I split the difference and turned it to half a turn clockwise and that was the least red and more orange flame.
can not wait for my Testo to get here...
I dont have a manometer so I am planning to use the testo for that as well.

for tonight the boiler is heating the house to 68 F... and we will see how the house feels. "

Why would you touch the throttle screw without a combustion analyzer in hand?

doctorman

flat_twin said:

"I did follow the video, and tried half turn this way and another and noticed the flame become real Red if I turned it half way counterclockwise or 1 turn clockwise, so I split the difference and turned it to half a turn clockwise and that was the least red and more orange flame.
can not wait for my Testo to get here...
I dont have a manometer so I am planning to use the testo for that as well.

for tonight the boiler is heating the house to 68 F... and we will see how the house feels. "

Why would you touch the throttle screw without a combustion analyzer in hand?

to see if the flame color changes.

NY_Rob

doctorman said:

...the gas connection .. the manual says do not use anything smaller than 3/4"

the installer put the last 2 feet at 1/2" line , just because we ran out and there was no time to run to the store

inside gas line in the boiler is like 3/8" if not smaller
so in a way I dont think it matter that the last 2 feet before the boiler is 1/2" pipe but I was wondering what is your take.

I've seen other UFT-80W installs where they used 1/2" CSST for the final connection.

Is 1/2" CSST sufficient?
Use your manometer and check the gas pressure drop at high fire vs. static pressure at the gas valve. Have any other gas fired appliances in the home running when you perform the test. The manual specifies a drop of no more than 1" W.C.
If you see greater than 1" W.C. drop... swap out the 1/2" line for 3/4".
I can tell you that you won't find 3/4" CSST at any big box stores, even local supply houses may not have it in the length you need. I had to order mine from supplyhouse.com.

NY_Rob

doctorman said:

...to see if the flame color changes.

It will be interesting to see your initial CO and CO2 readings when your CA arrives since you eye-balled it.

How do you like the Dirtmag? Did it take long to remove all the air?

doctorman

NY_Rob said:

doctorman said:

...to see if the flame color changes.

It will be interesting to see your initial CO and CO2 readings when your CA arrives since you eye-balled it.

How do you like the Dirtmag? Did it take long to remove all the air?

Dirtmag Rocks! another great recommendation from you!
between pressure relief valve, dirtmag and air vent that came with the boiler, I get rid of the air after the purge in minutes.

seems like the Testo wont make it in today according to UPS, very interested to see the results.

Having the hardest find a boiler cleaning kit in the aerosol cans that self-apply without lowering the boiler pressure.
I guess due to shipping issues online stores do not carry them...

after many time draining the system the water still not as clean as I like, considering the amount of flux my plumber has used, I think I have to soap and clean the inside before using the inhibitor.

hot_rod

doctorman said:

NY_Rob said:

doctorman said:

...to see if the flame color changes.

It will be interesting to see your initial CO and CO2 readings when your CA arrives since you eye-balled it.

How do you like the Dirtmag? Did it take long to remove all the air?

Dirtmag Rocks! another great recommendation from you!
between pressure relief valve, dirtmag and air vent that came with the boiler, I get rid of the air after the purge in minutes.

seems like the Testo wont make it in today according to UPS, very interested to see the results.

Having the hardest find a boiler cleaning kit in the aerosol cans that self-apply without lowering the boiler pressure.
I guess due to shipping issues online stores do not carry them...

after many time draining the system the water still not as clean as I like, considering the amount of flux my plumber has used, I think I have to soap and clean the inside before using the inhibitor.

Most all the major HVAC wholesalers have these kits near the counter, Fernox or Rhomar.

Houseneeds.com has them. There are some two can kits that include cleaner and conditioner.

What you have is a DiscalDirtMag, a 3 function separator

Ironman

doctorman said:

Gordy said:

Amazing all that solder, and leaks. Plumber?

tell me about it
one of the connections was painted and it was in a very hard spot, we ended up replacing that with a new elbow and the solder took on after,

the other 2 leaks were in the vertical line close to each other so I guess when he heat up one the other one lost its solder...
anyway he fixed that .



so plan for tomorrow.

-Connect thermostats
1 ecobbee 4 and 2 regular thermostats
- draw boiler pump outlet
- attach thermometer to the outlet and returns
- connect the drain
- combustion analyzer

If he can't sweat pipes any better than that, he should get a ProPress...or retire.

Ditch the Eccobee if you're thinking about using it for setback. Setback is not for modulating equipment. It will actually fight with the logic of the boiler and make it operate less efficiently. Connect the outdoor sensor and let the ODR feature do its thing, but don't set the thermostat back and then up.

doctorman

Ironman said:

If he can't sweat pipes any better than that, he should get a ProPress...or retire.

Ditch the Eccobee if you're thinking about using it for setback. Setback is not for modulating equipment. It will actually fight with the logic of the boiler and make it operate less efficiently. Connect the outdoor sensor and let the ODR feature do its thing, but don't set the thermostat back and then up.

-ProPress Very Cool, the only downside is the removal, I think.
so I guess you guys prefer copper over Pex?

- so no smart thermostat?
I guess those are more for central A/C then


- @hot rod which website is that? I will look into Fernox
emailed sentinel 2 days ago about where to buy their rapid dose and never heard back...


- VENT/ Condensation: this morning I see a puddle of water under the exhaust outdoor and cool steam coming out of the exhaust, close to 100F if not less.
Very cool but is the condensation supposed to come out of the vent? should I give it a slant up so it goes back into the boiler and come out of the condensation pipe?
I still have to cut the vent back


UPDATE:
and the Manual says
"Has the exhaust vent line been pitched back to the boiler at a rate of 1/4” per foot?"

so I guess that is my answer.

hot_rod

www.houseneeds.com for the treatment, or maybe directly from www.rhomarwater.com, they list the dealers in every state on the site also.
I'll bet there is some on shelves near you.
This kit will do about 35 gallons of system capacity, very easy to use.

doctorman

Testo came in today
did not have the tube to check the gas pressure, will try to get that done tomorrow.

So my CO2 was close to 12%

brought it down to

Low Heat
CO 26
CO-AF 35
CO2 8.4%
O2 5.9%

High Heat
CO 89
CO-AF 112
CO2 9.19%
O2 4.5%


So those are in line with natural gas numbers for CO and CO2.

I doubt the Gas pressure is an issue but I will try to check that.


The boiler runs around 130F generally... that will be an issue with my limited baseboard and if the need for fast temperature rise comes about, at 130F it will take this house a day or so to get to temp.
I will let it run for a day or 2 before I play around with it unless you guys have any advice on what to tweak

Outlet temp 132F
Upstairs 122F
Downstairs my biggest zone is 116F
Sunroom my smallest zone is 125F

probably I have to change a part of the baseboard in the sunroom to a bigger heat exchanger or longer baseboard so I can get faster results.

These are very efficient operation and it is automatically set by the Outdoor sensor but I have no override unless I disconnect the outdoor sensor...
I have to read the manual better on how to tweak this but I would like to have a better way to increase the outlet temp without cutting the outdoor sensor

NY_Rob

doctorman said:

These are very efficient operation and it is automatically set by the Outdoor sensor but I have no override unless I disconnect the outdoor sensor...
I have to read the manual better on how to tweak this but I would like to have a better way to increase the outlet temp without cutting the outdoor sensor

A very smart/helpful former member here told me how he addressed this issue on his UFT-80W....

Insert a common SPST switch in either of the lines coming from the ODR sensor. You will normally run with the switch closed and your boiler will see and use the ODR sensor for CH temp calculations.
If it's really cold and your ODR curve isn't keeping up... flip the switch to open position and the boiler will never see the ODR sensor and will default to fixed CH water temp output mode.

$2 fix...... the "I'm Cold" switch

doctorman

NY_Rob said:

doctorman said:

These are very efficient operation and it is automatically set by the Outdoor sensor but I have no override unless I disconnect the outdoor sensor...
I have to read the manual better on how to tweak this but I would like to have a better way to increase the outlet temp without cutting the outdoor sensor

A very smart/helpful former member here told me how he addressed this issue on his UFT-80W....

Insert a common SPST switch in either of the lines coming from the ODR sensor. You will normally run with the switch closed and your boiler will see and use the ODR sensor for CH temp calculations.
If it's really cold and your ODR curve isn't keeping up... flip the switch to open position and the boiler will never see the ODR sensor and will default to fixed CH water temp output mode.

$2 fix...... the "I'm Cold" switch

I was thinking of doing that actually lol

what do you think of the combustion analyzer number?
does it need to checked yearly?

NY_Rob

^ looks like you're in spec... so I guess it's good!

It certainly wouldn't hurt to check it once in a while... it will at least let you know something's going on if you see a change in the numbers.