HTP UFT Tankless boiler
Comments
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but as soon as you plug the Alpha2 into a live 120vac outlet it will pump... even with closed zone valves resulting in deadheading.
The Alpha2 should get wired to the "CH Pump" terminals on the boiler terminal strip. When there's a call for heat at the TT terminals via closure of the zone valve end switch- it will energize the "CH Pump" terminals and the Alpha2 will pump. It will start in the same mode it was last used, it has non-volatile internal memory for last state used... it can be un-powered for months and it will still start up in the last state.
If you bought the version of the Alpha2 with the line cord, no big problem. You can wire a standard 120VAC outlet (in a metal box) up to the "CH Pump" terminal strip connections on the boiler and plug you pump into that. Going forward it will make pump swap-outs super easy.
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Placement of the pump on the supply or return is not a pump issue: it's a system design issue. Until you understand what the PONPC is and how it effects the system, we're beating a dead horse.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
It can be powered all the time or cycled on and off. In standby, always powered mode it consumes 5W to keep the electronics powered.NY_Rob said:Correct me if I'm wrong, but as soon as you plug the Alpha2 into a live 120vac outlet it will pump... even with closed zone valves resulting in deadheading.
The Alpha2 should get wired to the "CH Pump" terminals on the boiler terminal strip. When there's a call for heat at the TT terminals via closure of the zone valve end switch- it will energize the "CH Pump" terminals and the Alpha2 will pump. It will start in the same mode it was last used, it has non-volatile internal memory for last state used... it can be un-powered for months and it will still start up in the last state.
If you bought the version of the Alpha2 with the line cord, no big problem. You can wire a standard 120VAC outlet (in a metal box) up to the "CH Pump" terminal strip connections on the boiler and plug you pump into that. Going forward it will make pump swap-outs super easy.
I'm not sure about an exercise function? If powered through a relay box it will usually have an exercise function. Maybe that is also built in to the Alpha?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Thank you so much, I drew out on the paper and you are 100% right about the swing check valve, had it removed.Ironman said:
2) It's very important, but it requires a long technical explanation. I doubt that you wanna hear it based upon your response to my simple explanation earlier. And your plumber certainly doesn't seem like he cares to learn the technical side of things. Still, if you wanna know more, look at Mark Eatherton's post from about 2 weeks ago about the Point Of No Pressure Change. It's an actual video demonstration that explains it.
3) You don't need it with the Alpha since it's a delta P circulator that automatically senses pressure changes that occur when a valve opens or closes and then compensates by varying its speed from 0 to 100%. You should set to "Auto Adapt".
I would caution you to heed hot rod and Seymour Cates' posts about how pumping direct with the Alpha is not a good idea as it will conflict with the boiler's logic. You should do p/s as shown in the diagram.
4) There's no need for a swing check, in fact, check valves should never be used in conjunction with zone valves. That means that you should remove the internal flow check from the Alpha, because you'll be creating a section of piping that will be isolated from the expansion tank when the zone valves close if you don't. I know the diagram shows it, but it also shows a pressure differential bypass which you won't use with the Alpha.
Can I add a note? Hydronics systems require proper design as well as proper installation and no two systems are exactly the same. There are many different methods, and sometimes more than one is viable for a particular job. However, you can't necessarily mix methods and components. In fact, most of the time, you can't. You came here primarily asking about components and not system design, which would have dictated which components to use. Now that you're in the middle of the installation, you're discovering the importance of proper design and that you can't just use any component with any type of system design. In other words, you put the cart before the horse. Please, pump the brakes for a moment and take the time to get it right now, before going any further and then having to correct it. Follow the p/s diagram (less the PDB valve) and tell your plumber to do so whether he understands it or agrees with it.
We're trying to help you get it right.
I will take at those posts...
I really appreciate the help!
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Thanks for the info above Bob!
That's very interesting regarding the Alpha2's "Standby" mode capability. AFAIK the original Alpha does not have that capability nor does it have (manually activated) "Summer Mode".
I wonder how long it has to deadhead before it goes into 5 watt standby mode?
I would still wire it directly to the UFT's "CH Pump" terminal connections and let the UFT power it down when not needed.
I did notice my Alpha power up a couple of times last summer, being powered directly and only by the UFT- there must be some sort of (undocumented) pump excercize feature built in to the UFT's boiler's firmware.
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I think I got the PONPC, so we changed the place of the expansion tank to the return, before the pump and also removed the check valve.Ironman said:Placement of the pump on the supply or return is not a pump issue: it's a system design issue. Until you understand what the PONPC is and how it effects the system, we're beating a dead horse.
so for autoadapt the direct plug in the wall is better for Alpha2
but for other modes like constant pressure or flow, it would have to connect to the boiler.
maybe I have an outlet drawn out of the boiler for the pump, just in case AutoAdapt does not do the job.
I will post some pictures soon and have you guys tear it apart lol.. very scared for that part.
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Why waste 5 watts x24 hrs x 7 months when simply powering the pump from the boiler saves you all that?
The boiler has CH Pump connections right on the high voltage terminal strip intended for exactly that purpose.
Being that the Alpha and Alpha2 have "last state" memory, powering it down between uses has zero drawbacks and saves you on electricity costs.1 -
todays work...
what is left...
gas connection
wiring/thermostat
vent
condensation pipe
Please be gentle
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I guess the top boiler connections for supply and return are unused (except for the factory pressure relief on the supply side)?
Keep in mind that according to the published maintenance schedule you must flush the HX every 1-2yrs with a descaling agent.
With the current lack of valves/access to the bottom connections- you'll need to use the top connections for the HX flush. Put valves up there now rather than 2yrs down the line.1 -
-The top in and out are capped. I did not touch anything on top.
-Where is the factory pressure relief valve? I did not notice it. I see the in and out and the air vent.
- what do you mean by HX?
- I will put inhibitor agent in the water that runs in the baseboards and will flush that every 2 years via the port installed.
- can you please put a picture of your install of the UFT?
or a link or something to the descaling procedure and what it involves... I will certainly add all needed now.
the outlet at the bottom connects to the callefi which if I open the bottom I can use to wash out the outlet side.NY_Rob said:I guess the top boiler connections for supply and return are unused (except for the factory pressure relief on the supply side)?
Keep in mind that according to the published maintenance schedule you must flush the HX every 1-2yrs with a descaling agent.
With the current lack of valves/access to the bottom connections- you'll need to use the top connections for the HX flush. Put valves up there now rather than 2yrs down the line.0 -
There are minimum straight length requirements for p/s piping. You have elbows very close to them.
Also wipe the solder joints with a damp rag after they solidify. All that flux over run will turn green after a few months
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Did you do the work or was it your plumber?
You need a backflow preventer installed before the fill valve.Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
@Leon82Leon82 said:There are minimum straight length requirements for p/s piping. You have elbows very close to them.
Also wipe the solder joints with a damp rag after they solidify. All that flux over run will turn green after a few months
Where do you see p/s piping on this install? Those are just three return lines Tee'd together.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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> @Ironman said:
> There are minimum straight length requirements for p/s piping. You have elbows very close to them.
>
>
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> Also wipe the solder joints with a damp rag after they solidify. All that flux over run will turn green after a few months
>
> @Leon82
> Where do you see p/s piping on this install? Those are just three return lines Tee'd together.
Yes, I see now0 -
Here's the relief valve, it came packaged along with the boiler, the cast iron elbow and tee were also packaged with the boiler... it is not optional.
HX = Heat Exchanger
The Descaling setup and procedure are described on page 69 of the I&O manual dated 7.21.2017...
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That is the procedure for the DHW side HX, I don't think he has the Combi version? Doesn't look like it from his pic.NY_Rob said:Here's the relief valve, it came packaged along with the boiler, the cast iron elbow and tee were also packaged with the boiler... it is not optional.
HX = Heat Exchanger
The Descaling setup and procedure are described on page 69 of the I&O manual dated 7.21.2017...
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
my plumber did this.Ironman said:Did you do the work or was it your plumber?
You need a backflow preventer installed before the fill valve.
I will note that to him tomorrow.
"backflow preventer installed before the fill valve"
That green fill valve does not have it built in?
---update---
I guess not
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^ That's right out of the I&O manual for the UFT-80W...
http://www.htproducts.com/uft-documents.html
Specifically page 69: http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-542.pdf
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I think the installer missed this....
Might give you problems?1 -
I just looked at the posted pics..RTFM.........HTP has taken the time to make a very comprehensive manual, it has very vivid illustrations, and detailed instructions.
This is what I was afraid of when someone starts buying all the parts, and telling the hired installer what, and where to put them. Next thing the I/O manual stays in the bag, and ends up in the corner.
That was being easy. Where’s that red button at....
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I'd be ashamed to let anyone see something like that. That's some of the worst workmanship I've ever seen.doctorman said:
my plumber did this.Ironman said:Did you do the work or was it your plumber?
You need a backflow preventer installed before the fill valve.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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It will probably work of, but it is not a boiler piping "best practice".
Most of the factory pre-made boiler panels have components jammed close together without regard to piping distances.
It would be nice to see manufacturers add more visuals in their conceptual piping drawings.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
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I'd rip all of it out and do it right. If there's that much excess solder and flux on the outside, how much more is there inside the pipes?doctorman said:
You bought a high end boiler and components and then scraped the bottom of the dumpster for an installer.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.3 -
At that point, It's up to the licensed/experienced/professional installer to veto the homeowners "suggestions" if they are in direct conflict with the manufacturers install instructions.Gordy said:This is what I was afraid of when someone starts buying all the parts, and telling the hired installer what, and where to put them. Next thing the I/O manual stays in the bag, and ends up in the corner
IMO it seems like the installer just plowed ahead regardless of the manual or homeowner suggestions. What was telling was how the OP kept asking the same question regarding the CH pump being installed on the return versus the supply. It leads me to believe the installer had already installed it on the return and the OP was looking for ammunition to present a good case to the installer to relocate it.
The work done so far is what I refer to as "the easy part" ... lets see how he does with the intake and exhaust PVC. That's much more difficult to setup and meet all I&O requirements.
He also has to address condensate drainage.
No excuse for poor soldering technique and failure to clean the joints afterwords... that's just poor/sloppy workmanship.
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For 1" pipe, yes.doctorman said:
12 diameter is 12 inches?
At this point... you as the customer need to pickup (or download) the install manual and read it thoroughly from front to back so you know right from wrong.
After reading the manual be ready to point out the several mistakes already made to the installer that will lead to either immediate or future problems.
If your installer has a hissy-fit that you are questioning his work... pull out the manual!
What did Ronald Regan say "Trust, but verify"!
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I am helping a family member with a very low income and no heat in their house in this project. new boiler, water heater, plumbing labor and work around 5K$ is a big saving for them compared to average 10-15K$ pricing they were getting, and we all know just because they give you a big price quote it does not mean you get a good job nor material at the end.
I certainly learned a lot and I want to make sure they have a stable and easy to maintain system moving forward.
I knew the installer won't read the manual, I should have read it myself but honestly, there was no time.
You guys made it possible and It was a huge help... I knew going into it that it won't be the top notch workmanship hence the reason I am on top of it.
I will be doing my own house and will start a new post on that, that one is complicated with Hydronic/air system etc.0 -
Was the work done by the same installer who doesn't have a working combustion analyzer or manometer?
Has he installed boilers before this?0 -
“Probably work”, “I would rather it be “will work”. While it’s true hydronics can be forgiving to the untrained eye. There is still the better way.hot rod said:It will probably work of, but it is not a boiler piping "best practice".
Most of the factory pre-made boiler panels have components jammed close together without regard to piping distances.
It would be nice to see manufacturers add more visuals in their conceptual piping drawings.
If you can’t do the basics, cut, solder pipe, use a level, RTM. As been said the venting is the next thing, and can kill. The machine, and the homes occupants.
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NY_Rob said:
Why waste 5 watts x24 hrs x 7 months when simply powering the pump from the boiler saves you all that?
The boiler has CH Pump connections right on the high voltage terminal strip intended for exactly that purpose.
Being that the Alpha and Alpha2 have "last state" memory, powering it down between uses has zero drawbacks and saves you on electricity costs.
At my rates .12 kWh after all fees that’s $5.25 calculated for 12 months. It’s certainly not excessive.
Auto adapt works better when the circ always has power if IIRC it has to relearn it’s auto adapt settings when power is interrupted. Unless that has changed.
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same installer yes,NY_Rob said:Was the work done by the same installer who doesn't have a working combustion analyzer or manometer?
Has he installed boilers before this?
I bought the Testo 320, it will be here tomorrow and I will check the system according to the HTP video, not taking a chance on CO in the house.
He installs boilers but never tankless
He got a special vent kit from AFsupply, (250$) and they told him exactly what to do, but again I told him that PVC will do the job for this, AFsupply guys told him PVC is illegal and sold him this 2 pipe kit,
I was gone go with the concentric vent that I posted before from homedepot. Anyway, I will post pics of the vent once done.
I was reading about soldering technique now... I noticed he used a lot of solder and flux very proudly and I see now that solder can get in the pipe and pool and break off into the system, let's hope the dirtmag will collect them,
Honestly, I recommended using PEX for the whole job, I have used PEX myself many times, it is easy and fast and no solder.. again he is old school and liked copper better so I let him move forward.
The installer is a very nice guy and does take my suggestions when explained well, but he is not into reading stuff... only on a forum like this, you find a collection of people who actually read the manual, out there in the world the manual gets a glimpse at most looking for some pictures unless things go wrong.
in all fairness to the installer, the existing plumbing at this house was horrible, to begin with, the pipes you see that are not level are not his job, many he fixed, we found many small leaks that he fixed.
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^ Agreed, $5-$10/year isn't excessive, but I'm half Scottish half German... so it just goes against my nature to waste anything
I would certainly investigate Autoadapt mode, but be ready to abort if it underflows and starts sizzling the HX. The UFT-80W can throw 80K BTU's at the CH water almost instantly... 1gpm through the HX isn't going make it happy!1 -
Per my conversation with Grundfos yesterday, the tech-support highly recommended using constant power with auto adapt and only use the boiler for the constant flow and pressure setting.NY_Rob said:^ Agreed, $5-$10/year isn't excessive, but I'm half Scottish half German... so it just goes against my nature to waste anything
I would certainly investigate Autoadapt mode, but be ready to abort if it underflows and starts sizzling the HX. The UFT-80W can throw 80K BTU's at the CH water almost instantly... 1gpm through the HX isn't going make it happy!
Did you speak with Grudfos on the lasting memory without power? or read it somewhere?
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I'm almost afraid to broach the subject of ODR Curve settings
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Back to my original question found this video which explains the Point of zero pressure nicely...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZRuqiQkukE
The pump creates pressure change,
negative in the suction side, positive on the outlet
we are avoiding negative pressure, to avoid air bubbles creation in the system.
Hence the reason for exp tank on the negative side pressure which is the suction side..
Not as complicated with some visual aid
Ahhh...
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doctorman said:
Per my conversation with Grundfos yesterday, the tech-support highly recommended using constant power with auto adapt and only use the boiler for the constant flow and pressure setting.NY_Rob said:^ Agreed, $5-$10/year isn't excessive, but I'm half Scottish half German... so it just goes against my nature to waste anything
I would certainly investigate Autoadapt mode, but be ready to abort if it underflows and starts sizzling the HX. The UFT-80W can throw 80K BTU's at the CH water almost instantly... 1gpm through the HX isn't going make it happy!
Did you speak with Grudfos on the lasting memory without power? or read it somewhere?
I prefer to leave them pluggd in, that is why they offer them with pre-wired cord.
I think Grundfos is clear that they can be used in either mode.Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream-1 -
^ question becomes how much of a duration of no power before it will lose the system memory settings.. Over the summer may be enough to have to relearn the next heating season.
Probably why GF tech support recommends constant power for auto adapt.0 -
@doctorman ... did you purchase the Alpha or Alpha2?
I have an Alpha (not Alpha2), and I don't think it goes in to "standby" on deadhead, and AFAIK it doesn't have "summer/hibernate" function either. Nothing about either feature in the Alpha manual.0 -
I have Alpha2NY_Rob said:@doctorman ... did you purchase the Alpha or Alpha2?
I have an Alpha (not Alpha2), and I don't think it goes in to "standby" on deadhead, and AFAIK it doesn't have "summer/hibernate" function either. Nothing about either feature in the Alpha manual.0
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